Yes, there is, but don't see the need to argue about it here.
Really? I would be very interested to hear that argument. If there ever comes a place where you can post something about this I would appreciate. At least would be interesting to see, since I (and believe most others) automatically think Howe was better than Jagr in every aspect of the game. Maybe it is not true.
Jagr better than Messier offensively.. but Messier was the better player.
Wonder what numbers Messier would put up if he wasn't behind Gretzky for 10 years.
Messier played with a HHOF winger for 6 years in Anderson, and he had 3 years of another HHOF winger in Kurri. He moved on th New York, where he played with - guess what? - a HHOF winger in Gartner. That's before Gartner was traded in 1994 for Anderson!
Before that, Messier often played on the wing with Gretzky. Even after moving to center full-time, he still often played the PP with Gretzky.
Poor Messier. Such terrible conditions over his career. His wingers don't compare to the linemates Jagr had, such as Hrdina and Kip Miller. Or the star wingers Steve Yzerman had, like Kevin Miller, Gerard Gallant, Dave Barr, and Bob Probert.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math
Yes, there is, but don't see the need to argue about it here.
How many times did Jagr finish top-5 in scoring, consecutively? And how many in total?
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Originally Posted by Machinehead
Yeah, on the second line.
He posted a career high 129 points after Greztky left.
Bernie Nicholls posted 150 playing almost the exact same role Messier did in Edmonton (second line center, PP winger). Gretzky himself only had 168 that year.
Was Nicholls better than Messier?
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Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker
Messier could play defense
Messier's defense was/is highly overrated, especially in a revisionist sense. People think "Man, he was great!" Then realize that he wasn't all that great compared to guys like Jagr, Yzerman, Trottier, or Sakic. He just played forever and had a couple of really good seasons thrown into a lot of decent ones, and he won a lot of Cups playing for the Oilers. Finally, if he hadn't made "the guarantee", people wouldn't think nearly as highly of him as they do. He's the modern-day Paul Henderson.
All the math seems to indicate so, which is remarkable given the era he played (and is still playing) in. Imagine if he entered the NHL a decade earlier. Wouldn't be surprised to have seen him retire with up to 2500 points.
How many times did Jagr finish top-5 in scoring, consecutively? And how many in total?
The competition was much weaker for much of that time and there was much less opportunity. When 36 forwards or less are getting top minutes and a good amount of PP time, it's a different situation than a league with substantially increased talent from overseas (and population factors) and 150-180 forwards getting top time. He started to get some real competition in the mid-50s with Beliveau, Geoffrion and Bathgate, and that increased in the early 60s with Hull, Mikita, and for a while Mahovlich. It's hard to compare across eras, but there is an argument. Offensively, I'd give the edge to Jagr on a peak basis, it's close on a prime basis (shorter periods favor Jagr, more extended periods favor Howe), and give the edge to Howe at this point on a career basis.
Jagr was better on the offensive side of the game.
Messier was a more complete and all around better player.
Simple as that.
In the History section of Hfboards people were polled as to who is the better player between Jagr and Messier and Jagr won the Poll by about 65% of the votes. Actually sorry it was 70.5% of the votes for Jagr. http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=716989
In fact when polled Jagr beat out Forsberg, Yzerman, Lafleur, Forsberg, Bossy, Esposito and Messier respectively in separate head to head polls.
Jagr is vastly underrated on Hfboards especially in the regular Hockey and Polls' sections while a player like Messier gets vastly overrated.
Jagr had the better peak, prime and career and it's not really an argument. What Jagr lacked in defense, he more than made up for in offense over Messier. Jagr's defense was his offense as he was one of the greatest puck possession, evenstrength and +/- players of all time.
Jagr has 5 Art Ross trophies, 2 other 2nd place finishes, 1 Hart but 6 overall Hart finalists standings, 3 Pearsons, 9 total top 5 finishes and 11 total top 10 finishes in scoring.
Messier was half the player he was in his last 6 seasons in the NHL while Jagr was an elite player pretty much in his last season in New York (he had 71 Pts followed by 15 Pts in just 10 games in the playoffs) at age 36.
Jagr would most likely have around 2100 Pts by now had he not lost an entire season in 2004-05, some time in 1994-95 and more time now and then the 3 seasons he played in the KHL.
.... and if this season in the Czech Extraleague is any indication (yes I know it's not the NHL but it is a pretty good league and one of the top 4 best leagues in Europe)he's basically dominating that league with 43 Pts in just 27 games at the age of 40. He's lighter this year, faster and if there was an NHL season could have been a 75-85 Pts player with Dallas.
Last edited by livewell68: 12-10-2012 at 08:08 PM.
I would say the difference between offense is bigger than all-around play.
Career is closer but I would still go with Jagr.
I can't go with Jagr here... Sure he has the Art Ross trophies that Messier never won (though it isn't like Jagr would have won any if he played when Gretzky and Lemieux were in their prime and healthy)...
But Messier has him beat in the Cups, Harts and Con Smythe awards.
Not to mention Jagr's play did take a fair bit of a drop when the playoffs started compared to his regular season play.
Messier played with a HHOF winger for 6 years in Anderson, and he had 3 years of another HHOF winger in Kurri. He moved on th New York, where he played with - guess what? - a HHOF winger in Gartner. That's before Gartner was traded in 1994 for Anderson!
Before that, Messier often played on the wing with Gretzky. Even after moving to center full-time, he still often played the PP with Gretzky.
Poor Messier. Such terrible conditions over his career. His wingers don't compare to the linemates Jagr had, such as Hrdina and Kip Miller. Or the star wingers Steve Yzerman had, like Kevin Miller, Gerard Gallant, Dave Barr, and Bob Probert.
How many times did Jagr finish top-5 in scoring, consecutively? And how many in total?
Bernie Nicholls posted 150 playing almost the exact same role Messier did in Edmonton (second line center, PP winger). Gretzky himself only had 168 that year.
Was Nicholls better than Messier?
Messier's defense was/is highly overrated, especially in a revisionist sense. People think "Man, he was great!" Then realize that he wasn't all that great compared to guys like Jagr, Yzerman, Trottier, or Sakic. He just played forever and had a couple of really good seasons thrown into a lot of decent ones, and he won a lot of Cups playing for the Oilers. Finally, if he hadn't made "the guarantee", people wouldn't think nearly as highly of him as they do. He's the modern-day Paul Henderson.
Anderson was only a hall of famer (what...15 years after he was eligible) because of Messier! Just look at how he fell off a cliff without him... hell he didn't even finish his career in the NHL.
and Messier didn't play with Gretzky that much at all.. a little sure.. but nothing to make it really note worthy.
Really, you want to be throwing those kind of stones around? Jagr got to play with Mario Lemieux, Ron Francis, Mark Recchi, Larry Murphy, etc..
And Messier's D overrated? please.. he at least had a defensive game unlike guys like Jagr.
Jagr you at least can compare careers.. but I don't even know where to begin with you saying Yzerman and Sakic above Messier who both were a clear cut below Messier.
In the History section of Hfboards people were polled as to who is the better player between Jagr and Messier and Jagr won the Poll by about 65% of the votes. Actually sorry it was 70.5% of the votes for Jagr. http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=716989
In fact when polled Jagr beat out Forsberg, Yzerman, Lafleur, Forsberg, Bossy, Esposito and Messier respectively in separate head to head polls.
Jagr is vastly underrated on Hfboards especially in the regular Hockey and Polls' sections while a player like Messier gets vastly overrated.
Jagr had the better peak, prime and career and it's not really an argument. What Jagr lacked in defense, he more than made up for in offense over Messier. Jagr's defense was his offense as he was one of the greatest puck possession, evenstrength and +/- players of all time.
Jagr has 5 Art Ross trophies, 2 other 2nd place finishes, 1 Hart but 6 overall Hart finalists standings, 3 Pearsons, 9 total top 5 finishes and 11 total top 10 finishes in scoring.
Messier was half the player he was in his last 6 seasons in the NHL while Jagr was an elite player pretty much in his last season in New York (he had 71 Pts followed by 15 Pts in just 10 games in the playoffs) at age 36.
Jagr would most likely have around 2100 Pts by now had he not lost an entire season in 2004-05, some time in 1994-95 and more time now and then the 3 seasons he played in the KHL.
.... and if this season in the Czech Extraleague is any indication (yes I know it's not the NHL but it is a pretty good league and one of the top 4 best leagues in Europe)he's basically dominating that league with 43 Pts in just 27 games at the age of 40. He's lighter this year, faster and if there was an NHL season could have been a 75-85 Pts player with Dallas.
Not an argument for career?
Let's see.
Hart Trophies: Messier
Stanley Cups: Messier
Art Ross trophies: Jagr
Conn Smythe trophies: Messier.
For all the love Jagr is getting he is beat by Messier in the three biggest awards here.
Messier played until he was.. what 44? Of course his play was going to decline just like Jagr's has.. his last year in New York was brutal..that is looked on more favorable because he had a good playoffs for the first time in a while...
Then he left for Russia and hardly set that league on fire.
Actually they both had their last year in New York at the same time age wise (Messier with his first stint.)
Yet Messier's 84 points were good for only 2nd among all Rangers in points that season, THIRTEEN points off the lead. Care to tell the readers who led that Rangers team in points? That critical little fact explains Messier's 84 points. Here, I'll do it for you: WAYNE GRETZKY.
Oh, and while I'm at it, I'll list Messier's teammates in '96-'97 vs. Jagr's '07-'08 teammates, too:
Funniest part about you comparing those two seasons is that Jagr's "poor" season was still good enough to lead the Rangers in points, while Messier's wasn't even kind of close to leading his Rangers team.
I can't go with Jagr here... Sure he has the Art Ross trophies that Messier never won (though it isn't like Jagr would have won any if he played when Gretzky and Lemieux were in their prime and healthy)...
But Messier has him beat in the Cups, Harts and Con Smythe awards.
Not to mention Jagr's play did take a fair bit of a drop when the playoffs started compared to his regular season play.
Fair enough. I can see justification for your end. I think i prefer Jagr but can't really blame anyone for choosing Messier.
