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NHL Lockout XXV: New car caviar four star daydream, think I'll buy me a hockey team

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Old
12-10-2012, 06:37 PM
  #951
Marc the Habs Fan
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Does he say anywhere who is/are his sources?
He doesn't...

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12-10-2012, 06:40 PM
  #952
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Maybe voting helps them if they do vote no and end up decertifying the union, so they'll be forced to vote, tactically?
Not sure what you're saying. To clarify, are you saying that maybe they want to test where the entire PA stands on whatever offer the NHL gives and if it comes back 'no' then they will go ahead with a disclaimer of interest?

I just considered, Aaron Ward who seems pretty plugged in to the PA, did say that the last offer the NHL put on the table wasn't enough to take to a vote but he said that it was important because it meant that the offer is getting close to what the PA would consider acceptable to take to a vote. If that is correct and there is an assumption that the league's next offer will adjust something (I think switching the contract term and variance would possibly work), then they might see that as the actual best offer and take it to a vote. It's all speculation of course but I guess that's another scenario that would have them consider a vote.

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12-10-2012, 06:42 PM
  #953
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It doesn't matter which offer you refer to, they're going to do substantially better than any of them. When I said that first offer, I meant the first real offer, in October.
Show me, with numbers, a deal that is "substantially better than" the Oct offer.

Thanks.

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12-10-2012, 06:43 PM
  #954
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Not sure what you're saying. To clarify, are you saying that maybe they want to test where the entire PA stands on whatever offer the NHL gives and if it comes back 'no' then they will go ahead with a disclaimer of interest?

I just considered, Aaron Ward who seems pretty plugged in to the PA, did say that the last offer the NHL put on the table wasn't enough to take to a vote but he said that it was important because it meant that the offer is getting close to what the PA would consider acceptable to take to a vote. If that is correct and there is an assumption that the league's next offer will adjust something (I think switching the contract term and variance would possibly work), then they might see that as the actual best offer and take it to a vote. It's all speculation of course but I guess that's another scenario that would have them consider a vote.

I'm no lawyer, and I wonder if maybe it helps them legally if they can tell the courts "listen, we voted, and it was a clear rejection of the 'offers' the NLH gave us, so that's why we disclaimed interest" or something along those lines.

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12-10-2012, 06:43 PM
  #955
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I think it's safe to assume that both sides have pressure internally to get something done. While I consider Renaud to be the best source for information during this negotiation, I don't see how it could have such a high probability unless the players on the executive committee are feeling intense pressure or among the group that are pressuring for a deal.
it could be that. people talk about the players turning against fehr - but i think before they do that they start turning against each other (infighting, etc).

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12-10-2012, 06:44 PM
  #956
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My guess would be that if it went to a forced vote about 90% to 95% would vote against the NHL's current offer.
No way in hell. Every 3rd/4th liner, every 5/6 dman would be voting yes without a thought.

A lot of 3/4 dmen and fringe 2nd line players would vote yes as well.

The NHLPA is literally holding out right now to appease about 5-8% of the union. Its sickening at this point.

Ill raise this question. At this point, this exact point in time, what are the players still fighting for? Dead serious question. They have already lost 600M in money they will never get back, to fight for 500M.

What is the fight for from the players at this very point?

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12-10-2012, 06:45 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
He doesn't...
Who can force a vote? The PA Executive Board?

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12-10-2012, 06:46 PM
  #958
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it could be that. people talk about the players turning against fehr - but i think before they do that they start turning against each other (infighting, etc).
I agree with that. The NHL has already tried to attack Fehr's credibility by accusing him of not keeping the players informed but this backfired. They then tried to keep him out of the meetings last week. At this point I think the NHL is coming to the conclusion that the PA is not likely to break. Of course if the NHL comes back with a better proposal and the PA still rejects it then I think that we could see some more public dissension.

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12-10-2012, 06:47 PM
  #959
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
No way in hell. Every 3rd/4th liner, every 5/6 dman would be voting yes without a thought.

A lot of 3/4 dmen and fringe 2nd line players would vote yes as well.

The NHLPA is literally holding out right now to appease about 5-8% of the union. Its sickening at this point.

Ill raise this question. At this point, this exact point in time, what are the players still fighting for? Dead serious question. They have already lost 600M in money they will never get back, to fight for 500M.

What is the fight for from the players at this very point?
The voting would be guarenteed at least 40% at this point. it's the middle guys you dont know how they'd vote.

I wouldnt say the hardliners are in a minority right now, but they're definitely losing people by the day.

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12-10-2012, 06:47 PM
  #960
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My guess would be that if it went to a forced vote about 90% to 95% would vote against the NHL's current offer.
Just to be clear, what is their current offer?

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12-10-2012, 06:50 PM
  #961
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So if it goes to a vote how is the line break down between the yes and no votes? Figure 1st liners are 100% no right?
I don't think so. Many of them already have their long term deals and haven't got much to gain from holding out.

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12-10-2012, 06:50 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
http://legrandclub.rds.ca/profils/60.../151547/public



Renaud Lavoie writes that it's very probable the players will be forced to vote on the next offer that the NHL puts on the table, regardless of if Fehr is happy with that or not. A vote would be essential in order to clearly determine what the players want because they are not all on the same page right now.
I'm not counting on it but would really like to see that. Fehr said it was a democratic way for Hamrlik to speak out. It's also democratic to vote. Maybe Hamrlik's idea will come to fruition. A day late and a dollar short but whatever. If it's voted down then Fehr and the hardliners can continue to ruin what's in place. The sooner a vote, the better.

Lavoie is a decent source.

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Old
12-10-2012, 06:52 PM
  #963
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Just to be clear, what is their current offer?
The NHL's current offer is readily available if you search

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12-10-2012, 06:52 PM
  #964
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
No way in hell. Every 3rd/4th liner, every 5/6 dman would be voting yes without a thought.

A lot of 3/4 dmen and fringe 2nd line players would vote yes as well.

The NHLPA is literally holding out right now to appease about 5-8% of the union. Its sickening at this point.

Ill raise this question. At this point, this exact point in time, what are the players still fighting for? Dead serious question. They have already lost 600M in money they will never get back, to fight for 500M.

What is the fight for from the players at this very point?
Pretty much how I feel. If its about money, why would they continue to fight when it costs them more than they could possibly gain?

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Old
12-10-2012, 06:53 PM
  #965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Show me, with numbers, a deal that is "substantially better than" the Oct offer.

Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
No way in hell. Every 3rd/4th liner, every 5/6 dman would be voting yes without a thought.

A lot of 3/4 dmen and fringe 2nd line players would vote yes as well.

The NHLPA is literally holding out right now to appease about 5-8% of the union. Its sickening at this point.

Ill raise this question. At this point, this exact point in time, what are the players still fighting for? Dead serious question. They have already lost 600M in money they will never get back, to fight for 500M.

What is the fight for from the players at this very point?
This ^^^That^^^These^^^

I have no idea why they "think" the offers are getting better....they have not collected a paycheck. Better than the nothing they have coming in now, but not better than any amount of make whole and partial season income that will come to them. Better because they will get separate room on road trips? Was that the NHLPA's hill to die on?

In the big picture this is NOT getting better, can the players not figure that out or do they simply believe if Fehr says it is, then it must be?

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12-10-2012, 06:53 PM
  #966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
No way in hell. Every 3rd/4th liner, every 5/6 dman would be voting yes without a thought.

A lot of 3/4 dmen and fringe 2nd line players would vote yes as well.

The NHLPA is literally holding out right now to appease about 5-8% of the union. Its sickening at this point.

Ill raise this question. At this point, this exact point in time, what are the players still fighting for? Dead serious question. They have already lost 600M in money they will never get back, to fight for 500M.

What is the fight for from the players at this very point?
Today's unions only exist to appease the 1%.

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12-10-2012, 06:54 PM
  #967
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i'm still trying to figure out what fehr is so scared of, if the nhlpa is such a tight knit group like he and they say they are. then there should be no worries about putting the current deal up for vote right? they would all say no right?

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12-10-2012, 06:55 PM
  #968
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i'm still trying to figure out what fehr is so scared of, if the nhlpa is such a tight knit group like he and they say they are. then there should be no worries about putting the current deal up for vote right? they would all say no right?
Why would you risk that?

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12-10-2012, 06:55 PM
  #969
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NHLPA is planning an outdoor game for next month if the lockout is still ongoing at that point:

Daren Millard ‏@darenmillard
Contingency plan for @nhlpa I am told their working on an outdoor game in early january. Cdn location said to be spectacular setting.

https://twitter.com/darenmillard/sta...98703532527616

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12-10-2012, 06:56 PM
  #970
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
http://legrandclub.rds.ca/profils/60.../151547/public



Renaud Lavoie writes that it's very probable the players will be forced to vote on the next offer that the NHL puts on the table, regardless of if Fehr is happy with that or not. A vote would be essential in order to clearly determine what the players want because they are not all on the same page right now.
Whos forcing them?

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12-10-2012, 06:56 PM
  #971
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Why would you risk that?
why not? they say they are all well informed, and they all say that the nhl hasn't given them anything yet, they all say they are 100% behind fehr. but fehr is just to scared to even test it, so hmmm i guess they aren't all behind fehr now are they.

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12-10-2012, 06:56 PM
  #972
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i'm still trying to figure out what fehr is so scared of, if the nhlpa is such a tight knit group like he and they say they are. then there should be no worries about putting the current deal up for vote right? they would all say no right?
Why? There have been many offers from the NHL. Fehr will put it to a vote when the negotiating committee gets a good offer just like Bettman will go to the owners when he gets a good offer.

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12-10-2012, 06:58 PM
  #973
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Why? There have been many offers from the NHL. Fehr will put it to a vote when the negotiating committee gets a good offer just like Bettman will go to the owners when he gets a good offer.
and if make whole really is off the table, was it smart not to put that last offer to a vote?

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12-10-2012, 06:59 PM
  #974
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and if make whole really is off the table, was it smart not to put that last offer to a vote?
Make whole is not off the table. That was just Bettman pouting. I don't think anyone takes that threat seriously.
It's a pretty childish thing to say.

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12-10-2012, 07:03 PM
  #975
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Make whole is not off the table. That was just Bettman pouting. I don't think anyone takes that threat seriously.
It's a pretty childish thing to say.
but there is still that slight chance that it really is, not only are you losing what now 600 million from holding out and missing games/pay cheques. but not you just lost that money that would be helping the transition just that little bit.

if the nhlpa never see's that 211 million or even the 300 million again, it really wasn't smart to hold out for that extra penny that you were hoping might come later on, and especially making the owners that were really pushing for the cba to be done mad in the process. even if make whole is not off the table, i'm going to guarantee that they never see that 300 million number again.

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