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Old
12-10-2012, 06:53 PM
  #51
Sojourn
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
In the last 10 years, how many Red Wings have played a full season before they turned 21?
Very few, I'd imagine, but does that really mean Smith's age shouldn't be considered? Detroit will be bringing him in when many talented defensemen really start to come into their own at the NHL level. That could certainly make the transition easier for him, but does it necessarily make him a better prospect? I actually think his game will transition better at the NHL level than, say, Justin Schultz, but Smith has a lot to prove at the NHL level.

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12-10-2012, 07:00 PM
  #52
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I think Smith will be better than JKsilverstick seems to be implying, but I also agree with his point on the sample size. 14 games is not just a small sample size. It's hardly a sample size at all. A small sample size is something along the lines of 25-30 games in a row, or something closer to half a season of experience.

I don't think Smith will ever be confused with a #1 defenseman, but I see a lot of offensive potential there, and an edge to his game. If he can improve defensively, I think he could end up as a top pairing guy, but is also more likely to end up as a top 4 type of guy who will be used heavily in offensive situations.
I don't think he's ever gonna be a #1 either, but that's because my definition is pretty strict on what a #1 is. I don't even consider Green/Yandle/Karlsson to be #1s. He's never gonna be the guy you go to in game 7 of the SCFs during overtime to kill a penalty.

With that said, I find it hard to make a comparison to Smith in the league. Most offensive defenders you find don't have the edge that he does.

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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Very few, I'd imagine, but does that really mean Smith's age shouldn't be considered? Detroit will be bringing him in when many talented defensemen really start to come into their own at the NHL level. That could certainly make the transition easier for him, but does it necessarily make him a better prospect? I actually think his game will transition better at the NHL level than, say, Justin Schultz, but Smith has a lot to prove at the NHL level.
The way I've looked at it is you jeopardize his development by putting him in the NHL and either sticking him on third pairing minutes or sitting in the press box on half the nights.

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12-10-2012, 07:06 PM
  #53
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I believe Fischer was he last one. But yeah, you're right, it's because they don't deserve it, not because they should be able to crack the roster over Lidstrom/Kronwall/Rafalski/Stuart/Etc.
White, Quincey, Kindl, Ericsson...

You know, most of the time when a team has a top-prospect like people claim Smith to be, they trade a player to make room, or just stop constantly signing players to take his space.

You can argue about why he has barely sniffed the NHL by age 24 all you would like, but reality is not because Detroit had no choice. And whatever the reason, it affects his value.

Or rather, it would, if people weren't still riding the Detroit train from Datsyuk/Zetterberg times.

I never said he was going to be bad. He's a great prospect. But way, way overblown.

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12-10-2012, 07:08 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
White, Quincey, Kindl, Ericsson...
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The way I've looked at it is you jeopardize his development by putting him in the NHL and either sticking him on third pairing minutes or sitting in the press box on half the nights.

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12-10-2012, 07:10 PM
  #55
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I don't think he's ever gonna be a #1 either, but that's because my definition is pretty strict on what a #1 is. I don't even consider Green/Yandle/Karlsson to be #1s. He's never gonna be the guy you go to in game 7 of the SCFs during overtime to kill a penalty.

With that said, I find it hard to make a comparison to Smith in the league. Most offensive defenders you find don't have the edge that he does.
We agree with each other on this. I think the term "#1 defenseman" is used pretty loosely, where we'd really be talking more about top pairing, or a defenseman who is a workhorse and plays a lot of minutes. They aren't the same at all.

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The way I've looked at it is you jeopardize his development by putting him in the NHL and either sticking him on third pairing minutes or sitting in the press box on half the nights.
It depends on the team, but in Detroit's case, it certainly holds merit. Like I said, I think his set of skills will allow him to transition better into the NHL than defensemen who are out-playing him in the AHL. Still, he really needs to prove it at the NHL level, and 14 games is not doing that. Not by a long shot. Ideally, I think he should have been in the NHL last season, and to be honest, I think that might have hurt him a bit. To me, he looked like a player who had nothing left to prove in the AHL, and keeping him there when the NHL was an option just doesn't strike me as smart, even if he was going to be given more responsibility there. He may have been more comfortable in the AHL, but does it push him to be a better player?

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12-10-2012, 07:12 PM
  #56
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Not all of those are 3rd-pairing guys FYI.

Doesn't address the ability to trade away players or not sign them to make room.

Playing on the 3rd pairing as a rookie does not hurt you. That is how most defensemen and stars have learned. Playing in the AHL at age 23/24 can hurt you, if you are a player like people claim Smith to be.

Then again, he is not exactly tearing up the AHL, so maybe he is exactly where he belongs. Which would mean he doesn't deserve this hype.

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12-10-2012, 07:17 PM
  #57
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Not all of those are 3rd-pairing guys FYI.
Smith is very subpar defensively, which I have no problem admitting. White is better, and he'd get minutes above Smith regardless simply because he's the Wings' only right-handed defender.

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Doesn't address the ability to trade away players or not sign them to make room.
And your suggestion is to trade Lidstrom, Rafalski, or Kronwall?

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Playing on the 3rd pairing as a rookie does not hurt you. That is how most defensemen and stars have learned. Playing in the AHL at age 23/24 can hurt you, if you are a player like people claim Smith to be.
That's not how Detroit has done it. It hasn't worked out too badly for them either...

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Then again, he is not exactly tearing up the AHL, so maybe he is exactly where he belongs. Which would mean he doesn't deserve this hype.
I would hope he isn't considering he badly needs to focus on improving his defensive game.

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12-10-2012, 07:18 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Not all of those are 3rd-pairing guys FYI.

Doesn't address the ability to trade away players or not sign them to make room.

Playing on the 3rd pairing as a rookie does not hurt you. That is how most defensemen and stars have learned. Playing in the AHL at age 23/24 can hurt you, if you are a player like people claim Smith to be.

Then again, he is not exactly tearing up the AHL, so maybe he is exactly where he belongs. Which would mean he doesn't deserve this hype.
I think it can. I think it comes down to responsibility, and what a player is given. Most of those stars you're talking about likely started on the lower end, but moved up quickly, and/or were given respectable minutes and special team opportunity. Honestly, I don't know enough about Detroit's situation to say one way or the other, but there is no doubt that on some blue lines 3rd pairing minutes can mean very different things.

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12-10-2012, 07:20 PM
  #59
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He's ready to make the team. He should've been on it last year. Why wasn't he? I would love to know that as well.
He wasn't on it because:

Lidstrom, Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Stuart, Kindl, and Commodore were with the team to start the season.

They didn't have Smith up in addition to that group because it would have meant Smith and/or Kindl sitting significant periods, not to mention losing one of their forwards.

I'd have rather had Smith than Commodore, and let the competitive drive push for the better defenseman (I personally think it would have led to a Stuart trade by midseason) but keeping Smith down likely allowed him to develop much more than playing on the third pair would have.

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12-10-2012, 07:23 PM
  #60
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I think it can. I think it comes down to responsibility, and what a player is given. Most of those stars you're talking about likely started on the lower end, but moved up quickly, and/or were given respectable minutes and special team opportunity. Honestly, I don't know enough about Detroit's situation to say one way or the other, but there is no doubt that on some blue lines 3rd pairing minutes can mean very different things.
Aside from that his specialty has always been PP. Kinda hard to get time on that with Lidstrom/Rafalksi/Kronwall clogging it all up.

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12-10-2012, 07:28 PM
  #61
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Smith is very subpar defensively, which I have no problem admitting. White is better, and he'd get minutes above Smith regardless simply because he's the Wings' only right-handed defender.
If he is very sub-par defensively, then he would be playing on the 3rd line anyway.

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And your suggestion is to trade Lidstrom, Rafalski, or Kronwall?
Rafalski didn't play last season.

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That's not how Detroit has done it. It hasn't worked out too badly for them either...
That is not how Detroit has done it. That is how Detroit is forced to do it because their prospects aren't good enough to make that jump sooner.

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I would hope he isn't considering he badly needs to focus on improving his defensive game.
If he that badly needs to work on his defensive game, he does not deserve the hype he is getting.

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12-10-2012, 07:32 PM
  #62
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If he is very sub-par defensively, then he would be playing on the 3rd line anyway.
Somebody's never heard of an offensive defenseman...

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Rafalski didn't play last season.
You grossly miss the point. He did play in the other four seasons that Smith was developing. You want them to trade him for a rookie? Yeah, good luck selling that. We probably should've traded Yzerman to make time for Datsyuk too.

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That is not how Detroit has done it. That is how Detroit is forced to do it because their prospects aren't good enough to make that jump sooner.
Is this going to be the second time tonight that I have to use the phrase "That's the way it is if you need to suit your agenda of denial"?

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If he that badly needs to work on his defensive game, he does not deserve the hype he is getting.
Again, you've clearly never heard of an offensive defender.

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12-10-2012, 07:33 PM
  #63
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I think it can. I think it comes down to responsibility, and what a player is given. Most of those stars you're talking about likely started on the lower end, but moved up quickly, and/or were given respectable minutes and special team opportunity. Honestly, I don't know enough about Detroit's situation to say one way or the other, but there is no doubt that on some blue lines 3rd pairing minutes can mean very different things.
Their 6th defenseman played 17 minutes per game. Smith would also likely be on a PP pairing, giving him more time.

On rare occasions, it might be better to leave a defenseman down in the AHL, but by Smith's age and situation, if you are not in the NHL, it is unlikely you become a high-impact player.

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12-10-2012, 07:34 PM
  #64
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Aside from that his specialty has always been PP. Kinda hard to get time on that with Lidstrom/Rafalksi/Kronwall clogging it all up.
Rafalski didn't play last year, and there are 4 defensive spots on PP pairings.

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12-10-2012, 07:38 PM
  #65
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Rafalski didn't play last year, and there are 4 defensive spots on PP pairings.
It'd be cool if you'd stop making 10 different posts stating the same garbage that only needs to be seen once to be defused as an argument. Keep talking though, you're clearly proving that you have zero knowledge on how Detroit operates. I can't remember a time when Babcock HASN'T had a forward on the point of the 2nd PP pairing. Names like Hudler, Modano, and Samuelsson are coming to mind.

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12-10-2012, 07:38 PM
  #66
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How about Tomas Plekanec + Andrei Markov vs Tomas Tatar/Gustav Nyquist + Brendan Smith ?

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12-10-2012, 07:39 PM
  #67
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Somebody's never heard of an offensive defenseman...
It doesn't matter. If you are an offensive defenseman, then you get powerplay time as well. You still are a 3rd-pairing defenseman if your defense struggles.

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You grossly miss the point. He did play in the other four seasons that Smith was developing. You want them to trade him for a rookie? Yeah, good luck selling that. We probably should've traded Yzerman to make time for Datsyuk too.
But he was not playing last year. Meaning there was a spot, that Detroit filled up with mediocre players and trades.

The only individual on defense at Yzerman's skill level was Lidstrom. Nobody is saying you trade Lidstrom. Stop being dramatic to avoid the points against you.

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Is this going to be the second time tonight that I have to use the phrase "That's the way it is if you need to suit your agenda of denial"?
Oh, there is certainly one person in denial here, but it isn't me.

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Again, you've clearly never heard of an offensive defender.
Smith's offensive abilities are not anywhere close to a high enough level to warrant defensive deficiencies, and still have him in the top-4. Being an offensive defenseman doesn't mean you don't have to play defense.

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12-10-2012, 07:40 PM
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It'd be cool if you'd stop making 10 different posts stating the same garbage that only needs to be seen once to be defused as an argument.
Well if you would defuse those arguments and stop posting garbage, then I wouldn't have to re-post the arguments that disprove your theories.

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12-10-2012, 07:41 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Their 6th defenseman played 17 minutes per game. Smith would also likely be on a PP pairing, giving him more time.

On rare occasions, it might be better to leave a defenseman down in the AHL, but by Smith's age and situation, if you are not in the NHL, it is unlikely you become a high-impact player.
I've already said that I think Smith should have been in the NHL last season. Prior to last season, I think Detroit had every reason to hold off on introducing him to the line-up. Last season? I just don't see it. Maybe a little, given his defense, but I think Smith would have been better off in the NHL. It's obviously not my decision to make, but if it had been, I think I would have given Smith an opportunity to earn, and keep, a spot on the team. I don't think he was.

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12-10-2012, 07:43 PM
  #70
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I can't remember a time when Babcock HASN'T had a forward on the point of the 2nd PP pairing. Names like Hudler, Modano, and Samuelsson are coming to mind.
You know why they do that? Because it's better than any other option they have.

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12-10-2012, 07:43 PM
  #71
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Well if you would defuse those arguments and stop posting garbage, then I wouldn't have to re-post the arguments that disprove your theories.
Umm, you haven't disproved jack squat.

You keep coming around to the same stupid point that if Smith was so good he should've been on the team yet you refuse to acknowledge that Detroit's back-end was jam-packed up until this season.

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12-10-2012, 07:45 PM
  #72
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You know why they do that? Because it's better than any other option they have.
Same reason they had Holmstrom on the #1PP unit all those years.

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12-10-2012, 07:47 PM
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Umm, you haven't disproved jack squat.

You keep coming around to the same stupid point that if Smith was so good he should've been on the team yet you refuse to acknowledge that Detroit's back-end was jam-packed up until this season.
It was not jam-packed at all last season. In fact, they traded for another defenceman last season and wasted a 1st-round pick to do it.

Not to mention signed another one in the off-season. And signed one last off-season too.

And yes, if Smith is as good as his hype suggests, he would have been able to make the NHL by now.

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12-10-2012, 07:49 PM
  #74
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Same reason they had Holmstrom on the #1PP unit all those years.
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. Holmstrom was there entirely for a net presence.

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12-10-2012, 07:51 PM
  #75
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It was not jam-packed at all last season. In fact, they traded for another defenceman last season and wasted a 1st-round pick to do it.

And yes, if Smith is as good as his hype suggests, he would have been able to make the NHL by now.
Err, no. Quincey was acquired as an early replacement for Stuart, who Holland was 95% sure wouldn't be back.

But we'll ignore history and the fact that right after Quincey was acquired, Holland traded Commodore for nothing so he could bring Smith up. Give it up.

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