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Old
12-10-2012, 02:40 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
Exactly.

And because of that Size and strength, being a pure scorer is never going to be Biggs' game. Jenner is slightly smaller, better skater and more offensive minded than Biggs is.

We've seen countless high scoring chl prospects who never found success at the NHL level. Angelo Esposito is a great example of that. Its important to look beyond the scoresheet in order to evaluate a prospect.

Thats why you see players like Lessio, Prince etc. getting drafted after Biggs etc. and players like Kassian and Wilson going in the top 15 picks.
Very well said.

Biggs plays an NHL game. His game projects well to the pro game and I wouldn't underestimate his upside. Wendel Clark, Gary Roberts, John Tonelli were never top scorers in the NHL but on the ice, they were as important as anyone.

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12-10-2012, 02:45 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Very well said.

Biggs plays an NHL game. His game projects well to the pro game and I wouldn't underestimate his upside. Wendel Clark, Gary Roberts, John Tonelli were never top scorers in the NHL but on the ice, they were as important as anyone.
Seriously dude, Roberts was a sniper who potted over 50 once and Clark had 46 one year? They were go to guys offensively, in EVERY sense of the word.

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12-10-2012, 02:56 PM
  #503
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Seriously dude, Roberts was a sniper who potted over 50 once and Clark had 46 one year? They were go to guys offensively, in EVERY sense of the word.
Early Gary Roberts was a sniper, but he had some great support as well.

Biggs is 19, let's give the kid a chance to develop. I'm comparing the TYPE of player and the TYPE of impact on the ice that Biggs MIGHT develop into. (not you, specifically)

Seems like so many are limiting his upside to a 3rd line plumber who might score a couple of goals, based on what? His ppg in junior?

He's a long way from his max upside.

Bobby Ryan didn't look like much coming out of junior either.

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12-10-2012, 03:35 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Very well said.

Biggs plays an NHL game. His game projects well to the pro game and I wouldn't underestimate his upside. Wendel Clark, Gary Roberts, John Tonelli were never top scorers in the NHL but on the ice, they were as important as anyone.
Watched Biggs yesterday in Windsor, was a complete non factor a couple of slap shots form the dot that were 10 ft wide. Gens top player was Scott Laughton effort plus and physical a Flyer pick non the less and a guy who will far surpass Biggs in the NHL if yesterdays performance was any indication.

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12-10-2012, 03:38 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by FreeBird View Post
Watched Biggs yesterday in Windsor, was a complete non factor a couple of slap shots form the dot that were 10 ft wide. Gens top player was Scott Laughton effort plus and physical a Flyer pick non the less and a guy who will far surpass Biggs in the NHL if yesterdays performance was any indication.
Yeah, because the one OHL game you happened to watch means that Biggs won't develop as we hope.

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12-10-2012, 03:41 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by FreeBird View Post
Watched Biggs yesterday in Windsor, was a complete non factor a couple of slap shots form the dot that were 10 ft wide. Gens top player was Scott Laughton effort plus and physical a Flyer pick non the less and a guy who will far surpass Biggs in the NHL if yesterdays performance was any indication.
You live in Windsor?

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12-10-2012, 04:00 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by FreeBird View Post
Watched Biggs yesterday in Windsor, was a complete non factor a couple of slap shots form the dot that were 10 ft wide. Gens top player was Scott Laughton effort plus and physical a Flyer pick non the less and a guy who will far surpass Biggs in the NHL if yesterdays performance was any indication.
It likely isn't.

Even Galchenyuk has gone pointless in a handful of games this season, and even the best players in the NHL are non-factors once and a while.

Thats the reason you look at performance over the course of multiple seasons rather than a one game microcosm.

If last year's game vs. Chicago was any indication, Sam Gagner is going to be the best player the league has seen since Gretzky.

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12-10-2012, 04:26 PM
  #508
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It likely isn't.

Even Galchenyuk has gone pointless in a handful of games this season, and even the best players in the NHL are non-factors once and a while.

Thats the reason you look at performance over the course of multiple seasons rather than a one game microcosm.

If last year's game vs. Chicago was any indication, Sam Gagner is going to be the best player the league has seen since Gretzky.
I attended the entire Memorial Cup a few years back. Jordan Staal was virtually invisible and wholly unimpressive. Brule and Radulov were fantastic (though IMO Brad Marchand was the most noticeable player in the whole tournament).

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12-10-2012, 04:28 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Early Gary Roberts was a sniper, but he had some great support as well.

Biggs is 19, let's give the kid a chance to develop. I'm comparing the TYPE of player and the TYPE of impact on the ice that Biggs MIGHT develop into. (not you, specifically)

Seems like so many are limiting his upside to a 3rd line plumber who might score a couple of goals, based on what? His ppg in junior?

He's a long way from his max upside.

Bobby Ryan didn't look like much coming out of junior either.
Seriously?

GP G A P
2004-05 62 37 52 89
2005-06 59 31 64 95
2006-07 63 43 59 102

Bobby Ryan had a very good OHL career with Owen Sound. Enough to get him drafted 2nd overall, and he only improved his production after that. Ryan and Biggs aren't that comparable really, but was surprised you don't think Ryan was very good in the OHL.

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12-10-2012, 04:41 PM
  #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topched View Post
Exactly.

And because of that Size and strength, being a pure scorer is never going to be Biggs' game. Jenner is slightly smaller, better skater and more offensive minded than Biggs is.

We've seen countless high scoring chl prospects who never found success at the NHL level. Angelo Esposito is a great example of that. Its important to look beyond the scoresheet in order to evaluate a prospect.

Thats why you see players like Lessio, Prince etc. getting drafted after Biggs etc. and players like Kassian and Wilson going in the top 15 picks.
So prospects don't always pan out? Okay. And yeah, it's fantastic if the bread and butter of your game is playing hard nosed to the whistle, but if you're drafted that high, you're expected to be able to bring an offensive dynamic to your game. You can draft players to punch other guys in the face at other positions than 22nd overall.

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Originally Posted by Joey Hoser View Post
Being the physical specimen he is, if he were to also be pacing 90 or 100 points, he'd be one of the best prospects in all of hockey.

You're asking for a lot.
Lol? He can hit people. Woo. He's 19. I'm asking for him to score at a higher clip against 16-20 year olds before we call him a future top 6 forward in the NHL. Earth shattering, I know.

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12-10-2012, 04:58 PM
  #511
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So prospects don't always pan out? Okay. And yeah, it's fantastic if the bread and butter of your game is playing hard nosed to the whistle, but if you're drafted that high, you're expected to be able to bring an offensive dynamic to your game. You can draft players to punch other guys in the face at other positions than 22nd overall.

Lol? He can hit people. Woo. He's 19. I'm asking for him to score at a higher clip against 16-20 year olds before we call him a future top 6 forward in the NHL. Earth shattering, I know.
I'm not simply saying prospects won't pan out... I'm more saying that players who have a specific skill set like Kassian, Wilson, Biggs etc. are considered more valuable than other players who show more offensive ability.

A guy with that type of size and physicality has the potential to develop their offensive game to a point where they can play in a scoring role.

Then you have those second tier scoring types, the guys drafted in the second round who scored ppg, that have major defensive holes in their game or lack size/physicality is something that is much harder to develop.

This is Biggs first season playing this heavy a schedule at this level of intensity etc. He's doing pretty well (top 30 in scoring), and has contributed alot to the Generals so far, and is eyeing a spot on the US WJ team. I'm satisfied with his performance and I'm sure Leafs brass is as well.

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12-10-2012, 05:02 PM
  #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Biggs plays an NHL game. His game projects well to the pro game and I wouldn't underestimate his upside. Wendel Clark, Gary Roberts, John Tonelli were never top scorers in the NHL but on the ice, they were as important as anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveV View Post
Seriously dude, Roberts was a sniper who potted over 50 once and Clark had 46 one year? They were go to guys offensively, in EVERY sense of the word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Biggs is 19, let's give the kid a chance to develop. I'm comparing the TYPE of player and the TYPE of impact on the ice that Biggs MIGHT develop into. (not you, specifically)

He's not saying Biggs doesn't have upside.

He's just saying, that saying that Clark and Roberts were never top scores in the NHL is not true.

Clark 330 goals in 793 games
Roberts 438 in 1224, Roberts was a 40 goal scorer in his prime.

It's not a big deal.

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12-10-2012, 05:05 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
So prospects don't always pan out? Okay. And yeah, it's fantastic if the bread and butter of your game is playing hard nosed to the whistle, but if you're drafted that high, you're expected to be able to bring an offensive dynamic to your game. You can draft players to punch other guys in the face at other positions than 22nd overall.



Lol? He can hit people. Woo. He's 19. I'm asking for him to score at a higher clip against 16-20 year olds before we call him a future top 6 forward in the NHL. Earth shattering, I know.
Biggs wasn't drafted to be a goon.
Biggs wasn't drafted to be a 30 goal scorer.

He was drafted to be a hybrid off both. I think if he can become a just under 20 goal scorer each year, while playing physical hockey, that be great.

Like, if he can pan out to be a less offensive version of Dustin Brown or Ryan Callahan, that be a good use of a low 1st round pick.

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12-10-2012, 05:12 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Early Gary Roberts was a sniper, but he had some great support as well.

Biggs is 19, let's give the kid a chance to develop. I'm comparing the TYPE of player and the TYPE of impact on the ice that Biggs MIGHT develop into. (not you, specifically)

Seems like so many are limiting his upside to a 3rd line plumber who might score a couple of goals, based on what? His ppg in junior?

He's a long way from his max upside.

Bobby Ryan didn't look like much coming out of junior either.
Nobody is disagreeing with you, but you need work on your comparisons...LOL

Gary Roberts, Wendel Clark, Bobby Ryan???

You left out Rick Tocchet, Cam Neely and Brendan Shanahan.

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12-10-2012, 05:14 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by FreeBird View Post
Watched Biggs yesterday in Windsor, was a complete non factor a couple of slap shots form the dot that were 10 ft wide. Gens top player was Scott Laughton effort plus and physical a Flyer pick non the less and a guy who will far surpass Biggs in the NHL if yesterdays performance was any indication.
I watched the game too and you are right, his line had a bad game. Give credit to Brady Vail and his linemates for shutting down the Jenner line though. Vail also shutdown Galchenyuk's line the game before which is perhaps one of the hottest lines in the CHL. Don't worry, yesterdays game wasn't any indication of anything. However, it is to bad his 6 game point streak (4goals, 5assists) had to end

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12-10-2012, 06:56 PM
  #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeBird View Post
Watched Biggs yesterday in Windsor, was a complete non factor a couple of slap shots form the dot that were 10 ft wide. Gens top player was Scott Laughton effort plus and physical a Flyer pick non the less and a guy who will far surpass Biggs in the NHL if yesterdays performance was any indication.
Damn. I wish I could scout like you man, one game and you can tell which player will end up the best.

Why are you wasting your talents on the hfboards? You should totally talk to some professional teams. I am sure they would want your expertise.

On a serious note for knowledgable posters in this thread. Biggs has been doing pretty well this year. The transition isn't going so badly, I suspect at that some point he may hit a wall as he'l be playing more games then he is used to.

Jenner's foot speed has come a long way. I feel like in 2-3 years, JVR and Biggs on a line may be a real pain for other teams down low.

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12-10-2012, 07:15 PM
  #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeBird View Post
Watched Biggs yesterday in Windsor, was a complete non factor a couple of slap shots form the dot that were 10 ft wide. Gens top player was Scott Laughton effort plus and physical a Flyer pick non the less and a guy who will far surpass Biggs in the NHL if yesterdays performance was any indication.
We must have watched different games, im assuming you didn't see the space he creates for Jenner or they way he causes havoc in front of the net. some of those things don't show up on the scoreboard. Laughton was the gens 2nd overall pick in the priority selection, completely different type of player and prospect then Biggs

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12-10-2012, 07:19 PM
  #518
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I like his comparison to Dustin Brown, and thus his point totals at this age are similar as well.

Biggs isn't going to light the NHL on fire, but he's going to be a 6-9 guy who's in your face and hits everything that moves. A perfect 2nd/3rd line Winger who brings it every shift.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, for a late 1st rd pick.

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12-10-2012, 07:29 PM
  #519
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The world juniors will tell the tale with Biggs. He should be making an impact for the yanks this year with his size. If he plays Big and makes a difference then maybe we got something. If he doesn't then we almost certainly have nothing

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12-10-2012, 07:34 PM
  #520
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The world juniors will tell the tale with Biggs. He should be making an impact for the yanks this year with his size. If he plays Big and makes a difference then maybe we got something. If he doesn't then we almost certainly have nothing
So because of one world junior tournament means Biggs won't be anything?

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12-10-2012, 07:55 PM
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The world juniors will tell the tale with Biggs. He should be making an impact for the yanks this year with his size. If he plays Big and makes a difference then maybe we got something. If he doesn't then we almost certainly have nothing
i'm not sure i'd go that far, there are a lot of good NHL'ers out there who've had pretty bad World Junior showings.

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12-10-2012, 08:19 PM
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So because of one world junior tournament means Biggs won't be anything?
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i'm not sure i'd go that far, there are a lot of good NHL'ers out there who've had pretty bad World Junior showings.
For myself. I have only seen him play once and he didn't play very big. For myself I need to see him play big in this tourney or I personally will write him off as a big guy who doesn't know how to use his tools. My own evaluation only

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12-10-2012, 08:42 PM
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For myself. I have only seen him play once and he didn't play very big. For myself I need to see him play big in this tourney or I personally will write him off as a big guy who doesn't know how to use his tools. My own evaluation only
Well you'll be quite pleased then. He uses his size very well.

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12-10-2012, 08:54 PM
  #524
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For myself. I have only seen him play once and he didn't play very big. For myself I need to see him play big in this tourney or I personally will write him off as a big guy who doesn't know how to use his tools. My own evaluation only
I just wish the time zone was more friendly. There are a few guys I want to get a look at. Or in the case of Rielly I just want to see him again.

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12-10-2012, 11:18 PM
  #525
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I'm not simply saying prospects won't pan out... I'm more saying that players who have a specific skill set like Kassian, Wilson, Biggs etc. are considered more valuable than other players who show more offensive ability.
Woah, pump the brakes there. I'll agree that players with a skillset similar to Biggs are more valuable than other players who show similar offensive ability, but nobody is going to draft Tyler Biggs over Claude Giroux. The gamble you make there is a more translatable game vs a higher reward game. Sometimes it works, like Giroux or Lucic. And then other times it doesn't, like Beach or Esposito. But you can't just make a unilateral statement like that.

Quote:
A guy with that type of size and physicality has the potential to develop their offensive game to a point where they can play in a scoring role.

Then you have those second tier scoring types, the guys drafted in the second round who scored ppg, that have major defensive holes in their game or lack size/physicality is something that is much harder to develop.
Again, it's a gamble. If this were straight up true, you wouldn't get guys like Kadri or Eberle drafted until midway through the 4th round.

Quote:
This is Biggs first season playing this heavy a schedule at this level of intensity etc. He's doing pretty well (top 30 in scoring), and has contributed alot to the Generals so far, and is eyeing a spot on the US WJ team. I'm satisfied with his performance and I'm sure Leafs brass is as well.
Ayup, I agree. If he can maintain his PPG and refine his game, he looks like he'll be a top 9 guy someday, especially with his skating.

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Originally Posted by hero View Post
Biggs wasn't drafted to be a goon.
Biggs wasn't drafted to be a 30 goal scorer.

He was drafted to be a hybrid off both. I think if he can become a just under 20 goal scorer each year, while playing physical hockey, that be great.

Like, if he can pan out to be a less offensive version of Dustin Brown or Ryan Callahan, that be a good use of a low 1st round pick.
We agree. A 15-20 goal 3rd line guy isn't an unrealistic projection for Biggs. All I'm saying is that he hasn't shown the offensive acumen to be projected as a top 6 forward. Biggs hasn't been a big scorer at any level he's ever played at. The argument that he's going to be a 2nd line guy is a difficult one to make.

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