HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Players Starting to Ask Uncomfortable Questions of NHLPA Leadership

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-10-2012, 01:13 PM
  #251
Boltsfan2029
Registered User
 
Boltsfan2029's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In deleted threads
Country: United States
Posts: 6,285
vCash: 698
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewy View Post
Does the fact that the NHL wants Fehr out of the negotiating room mean that the players currently have an excellent Executive Director?
I think it does.
IMO - and it's just IMO - all he's done is hurt the process by stonewalling and is costing his constituency tons of money. If that means he's an excellent Executive Director, so be it. IMO the owners want him out because they want to get this process moving and save part of the season, and they feel his tactics aren't going to allow that to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
Fehr and the players could control this by forming a new league?But the reason they can't is because they no there is no alternative to Nhl in terms of salary.
There are many more reasons than that, starting with they wouldn't have the $$ to start such a league in the first place, much less have any left to pay the players.

Boltsfan2029 is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 01:53 PM
  #252
swimmer77
What's an ROW?
 
swimmer77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: in water
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,385
vCash: 500
Hamrlik not backing down. LOL

Mentions a couple of times negotiations should have started earlier. Doesn't spew the same Kool Aid about the NHL rejecting the NHLPA proposals. You know like - "it's a one way street, we keep giving, we are the victim, feel sorry for us, we're really close" stuff.


Watch Video Here

And I don't know how to embed videos. Sorry.

swimmer77 is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 01:56 PM
  #253
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country:
Posts: 29,435
vCash: 500
We have gone a lot further than a great percentage of the membership has wanted us to go, Westgarth said. I dont know how you look at our offer and say that weve been unreasonable.

Fugu is online now  
Old
12-10-2012, 02:06 PM
  #254
Sydor25
LA Kings
 
Sydor25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: North Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 21,828
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Sydor25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
We have gone a lot further than a great percentage of the membership has wanted us to go,” Westgarth said. “I don’t know how you look at our offer and say that we’ve been unreasonable.”
They why don't they vote on the NHL's offer (which a great percentage would vote "no" if you believe Westgarth) and show the world that they are united? That would still be the biggest leverage the NHLPA can ever get in this negotiation. A "No" vote would be a huge message to the owners and would get them to vote on the NHLPA's proposal and start working on the transition rules.

Notice that he says a "great percentage", not a majority. Would 15% be a great percentage? 25%? 35%?

Sydor25 is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 02:07 PM
  #255
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,638
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
We have gone a lot further than a great percentage of the membership has wanted us to go,” Westgarth said.
Posturing.

__________________
"Its not as if Donald Fehr was lying to us, several players said. Rather, its as if he has been economical with information, these players believe, not sharing facts these players consider to be vital."
Riptide is online now  
Old
12-10-2012, 02:10 PM
  #256
MeHateHe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 388
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Ok, well how about this though. Which of the following scenarios do you think would be worth consulting your membership on (since it so onerous to ask the opinion of the people you are representing when everyone is out of work):

-to save a whole season
-10% of salary has been lost
-20% of salary has been lost
-25% of salary has been lost
-35% of salary has been lost
-45% of salary has been lost
-a whole season will be lost

Come on, this is basic stuff. It's not like their JOBS are to represent the players or anything.
Hypothetical questions are a lot of fun, but the question was asked about how the collective bargaining process worked. Judging by the comments here, it's pretty clear most have very little understanding of that.

Actually their JOBS are to be pro hockey players. Their role on the bargaining committee are to represent the best interests of the players today and in the future.

If the players feel like their best interests are not being represented, they are welcome to make that known to the bargaining committee. A committee that has lost the confidence of the membership is likely going to collapse in on itself. These tend to be pretty organic processes.

But if you think that the bargaining committee is going to keep running back to the membership every time the other side makes an offer, then you simply have no clue how the collective bargaining process works.

MeHateHe is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 02:13 PM
  #257
Scurr
Registered User
 
Scurr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Whalley
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,649
vCash: 500
"At least half a dozen players agree" "more than a dozen letters"

Are you guys serious with this ****?


Last edited by Scurr: 12-10-2012 at 02:45 PM.
Scurr is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 02:30 PM
  #258
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country:
Posts: 29,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
They why don't they vote on the NHL's offer (which a great percentage would vote "no" if you believe Westgarth) and show the world that they are united? That would still be the biggest leverage the NHLPA can ever get in this negotiation. A "No" vote would be a huge message to the owners and would get them to vote on the NHLPA's proposal and start working on the transition rules.

Notice that he says a "great percentage", not a majority. Would 15% be a great percentage? 25%? 35%?

That still indicates it's the biggest faction within. There may be more than two. On both sides.


Last edited by Fugu: 12-10-2012 at 04:19 PM. Reason: mouser handled it
Fugu is online now  
Old
12-10-2012, 02:51 PM
  #259
therealkoho
Gary says it's A-OK
 
therealkoho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: the Prior
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,848
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Except that he's not getting paid.

Will he receive compensation at the conclusion of the negotiations? That's an interesting thought - is he working on some sort of percentage the way plaintiffs' attorneys do (they get a percentage of any eventual settlement, the amount being governed by the local rules/statutes/whatever)?
Fehr is fore-going his salary whilst the lock-out persists, but I can bet his expense account is getting a real work-out

so merely posturing

MOD: Link needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kelly_(lawyer)

Quote:
Some have speculated that Kelly was forced out in a power struggle.[3] Ron Pink, advisory board head, who had also applied for Kelly's position in 2007, and an ombudsman, Buzz Hargrove were also instrumental in the decision to dismiss Kelly.[4]
Buzz Hargrove, Ian Penny, Ron Pink, Ian Pulver and Eric Lindros were said to represent the "old guard of the NHLPA", one that was confrontational and focused on driving up player salaries, rather than the overall financial well-being of the league, and believed that the union conceded too much in negotiations during the 2004-05 lockout. Kelly was not involved with the NHLPA when the deal was negotiated, nonetheless he stated publicly that he did not want to see another work stoppage when the agreement expires on September 15, 2011.[5] The other executives felt that he was heading in the wrong direction, and that his relationship with NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and Bill Daly had grown too close, as they believed that the NHLPA should use whatever means necessary, including a work stoppage, to get the best deal for the players.[6]
Ian Penny was named the interim director later that day.[7] Donald Fehr became the permanent Executive Director on August 26, 2010.
Fehr was hired as special consultant/advisor to Bob Goodenow and stayed in place after the players thought Saskin the better option,they continued their stay until Kelley(whose firing is still thought to be murky at best) who recommended he not be renewed as a member of the advisory committee.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...nhlpa-coup-cox

Quote:
Driving the coup, along with personal rivalries, was the suggestion that Kelly, despite his impressive record as a U.S. attorney, wasn’t tough enough and wasn’t experienced enough as a negotiator to take on the NHL and Gary Bettman.

What he had done was establish a cordial working relationship with Bettman. He’d even been invited to speak to the owners at a meeting in Pebble Beach, and that didn’t sit right with some.

Ultimately, a report was done on this shameful episode in NHLPA history, a report that has never seen the light of day or been made public.

Kelly’s dismissal set in motion a series of events.

First, former baseball union head Don Fehr, who was on the phone with members of the coup later in the same day that Kelly was fired, became a consultant for the NHLPA. He’d been denied a spot on the advisory committee on Kelly’s recommendation several months earlier.

Fehr advised the union on how it needed to build a new infrastructure and then in December 2010, 16 months after Kelly had been fired, took over as executive director.

From that point until last month, a period of 20 months, Fehr declined to engage in any serious collective bargaining, and for much of the time he rejected NHL overtures, saying he was still learning the business.

On Thursday, he walked into a significant meeting with several NHL owners 90 minutes late, plopped down two single sheets of paper, each with a different skeleton proposal to the owners that didn’t include any ideas on systemic issues, then verbally delivered a third proposal with no accompanying paperwork. For all three proposals, he acknowledged to the owners he hadn’t actually “run the numbers.”

This from the leader of a union in a $3 billion business.
as far as the expenses go, if he's offering players all expenses to come to meetings from PA coffers it stands to reason that he is expensed as well. He said he would forego his salary during the lockout not his remunerative package


Last edited by therealkoho: 12-10-2012 at 04:27 PM. Reason: ...
therealkoho is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 03:42 PM
  #260
stuffradio
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,175
vCash: 291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
We have gone a lot further than a great percentage of the membership has wanted us to go, Westgarth said. I dont know how you look at our offer and say that weve been unreasonable.
That's an assumption, not official. There is no official vote by the players, so it is posturing as the other poster noted. We also know you are heavily biased towards the players. I am biased towards getting hockey going. I don't care who started this, (the owners), I care about who finishes this. By that I mean, I just want them to play. The PA is heavily to blame after the lockout was initiated, but the owners initial offer didn't help. They wanted the PA to see what they were getting compared to the owners.

stuffradio is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 03:51 PM
  #261
haseoke39
**** Cycle 4 Eichel
 
haseoke39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 5,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
We have gone a lot further than a great percentage of the membership has wanted us to go, Westgarth said. I dont know how you look at our offer and say that weve been unreasonable.
Easy. You ask more of the poorest pro sports league in North America than the wealthiest leagues give to their players. Gawrsh, I must be a genius.

haseoke39 is online now  
Old
12-10-2012, 03:57 PM
  #262
stuffradio
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,175
vCash: 291
All these players crying about their salaries need a reality check. For example, the highest paid player in the CFL makes $400,000. Different sports, but even the lowest paid NHL player makes more. Here you have all these PA supporters crying the PA needs to earn more money when professional athletes of other leagues make less, and have had 0 lockouts and strikes in the 100 years it has run.

stuffradio is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 04:03 PM
  #263
Xref
Registered User
 
Xref's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 753
vCash: 500
Captain Obvious here: the problem is the players are being asked to give up something that they had. When you give someone something good, then try to take it away, you'll get resistance. The issue is that the players aren't realizing that even with the owners' proposal as offered, they stand to make a TON of money. They are being given an opportunity to make billions. All they have to do is play a great brand of hockey (no trapping/defensive ******** hockey), and help promote and grow the game like never before. If they do that, they stand to make everything they will have "given up" and then some.

Xref is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 04:07 PM
  #264
BruinsBtn
HFBoards Sponsor
 
BruinsBtn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,543
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuffradio View Post
All these players crying about their salaries need a reality check. For example, the highest paid player in the CFL makes $400,000. Different sports, but even the lowest paid NHL player makes more. Here you have all these PA supporters crying the PA needs to earn more money when professional athletes of other leagues make less, and have had 0 lockouts and strikes in the 100 years it has run.
Exactly. Anthony Calvillo fills more seats than 30% of the guys collecting NHL paycheques.

BruinsBtn is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 06:00 PM
  #265
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 32,142
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewy View Post
Does the fact that the NHL wants Fehr out of the negotiating room mean that the players currently have an excellent Executive Director?
I think it does.
That logic is flawless, if you believe that the NHLPA's mission is to be as combative as possible.

tarheelhockey is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 06:43 PM
  #266
Master Shake
Registered User
 
Master Shake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kazakhstan
Posts: 1,763
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
They why don't they vote on the NHL's offer (which a great percentage would vote "no" if you believe Westgarth) and show the world that they are united? That would still be the biggest leverage the NHLPA can ever get in this negotiation. A "No" vote would be a huge message to the owners and would get them to vote on the NHLPA's proposal and start working on the transition rules.

Notice that he says a "great percentage", not a majority. Would 15% be a great percentage? 25%? 35%?
The nhlpa extremists dont have the balls to allow a full membership vote on the owers offer

Master Shake is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 07:36 PM
  #267
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuffradio View Post
All these players crying about their salaries need a reality check. For example, the highest paid player in the CFL makes $400,000. Different sports, but even the lowest paid NHL player makes more. Here you have all these PA supporters crying the PA needs to earn more money when professional athletes of other leagues make less, and have had 0 lockouts and strikes in the 100 years it has run.
NHL get 2 million people watching on average. CFL gets 1 million on average. Big difference.

Melrose Munch is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 07:46 PM
  #268
LSnow
Registered User
 
LSnow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Finland
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,013
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
NHL get 2 million people watching on average. CFL gets 1 million on average. Big difference.
1-2 million viewers isnt much.

LSnow is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 07:48 PM
  #269
Scurr
Registered User
 
Scurr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Whalley
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,649
vCash: 500
Did you guys even read that article? "half a dozen agree" "at least a dozen letters"

There are 750 union members This "fraction" debate is a farce.

Scurr is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 08:00 PM
  #270
Master Shake
Registered User
 
Master Shake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kazakhstan
Posts: 1,763
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
NHL get 2 million people watching on average. CFL gets 1 million on average. Big difference.
Hockey players are overpaid period. That is why ticket prices are so high. There is no way anyone can justify an NHL player making more than 5 million a year. Its ludicrous.

Master Shake is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 08:06 PM
  #271
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 109,947
vCash: 5792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake View Post
Hockey players are overpaid period. That is why ticket prices are so high. There is no way anyone can justify an NHL player making more than 5 million a year. Its ludicrous.
Yes you can. It's what the market dictated. People are willing to invest in the product, thus those involved in its production get paid. Or are you another "they get paid to play a game!!!1!" person?

GKJ is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 08:09 PM
  #272
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 109,947
vCash: 5792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
They why don't they vote on the NHL's offer (which a great percentage would vote "no" if you believe Westgarth) and show the world that they are united? That would still be the biggest leverage the NHLPA can ever get in this negotiation. A "No" vote would be a huge message to the owners and would get them to vote on the NHLPA's proposal and start working on the transition rules.

Notice that he says a "great percentage", not a majority. Would 15% be a great percentage? 25%? 35%?
Bettman also said that he got *****ed and moaned at by owners for putting make-whole on the table. How about the owners vote too and see where they're at.

GKJ is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 08:14 PM
  #273
thom
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,000
vCash: 500
Canada is a pop of 34 million ratings are done in quebec and english Canada.Their calculated for different markets.1 million to watch a cfl game is good rating you add another 500 thousand from quebec thats 1.5 million

thom is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 08:29 PM
  #274
mossey3535
Registered User
 
mossey3535's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,332
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeHateHe View Post
Hypothetical questions are a lot of fun, but the question was asked about how the collective bargaining process worked. Judging by the comments here, it's pretty clear most have very little understanding of that.

Actually their JOBS are to be pro hockey players. Their role on the bargaining committee are to represent the best interests of the players today and in the future.

If the players feel like their best interests are not being represented, they are welcome to make that known to the bargaining committee. A committee that has lost the confidence of the membership is likely going to collapse in on itself. These tend to be pretty organic processes.

But if you think that the bargaining committee is going to keep running back to the membership every time the other side makes an offer, then you simply have no clue how the collective bargaining process works.
My point was that ONE of the points above should have forced the NHLPA to go back to it's membership and ask them if they really wanted to keep going on the path. Your point is that they can't keep running back and forth. My point is that a good union leadership understands the pressure points for their membership and doesn't commit them to actions without consulting them AT MAJOR JUNCTURES.

And my union just settled after striking, and four of my good friends were on the bargaining committee so I think I'm ok with how the collective bargaining process works.

mossey3535 is offline  
Old
12-10-2012, 09:13 PM
  #275
Xref
Registered User
 
Xref's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 753
vCash: 500
Considering how close we are to the complete cancellation of the season, I have to imagine that each team's union rep is checking in with his team mates to get their feedback on every issue.

Xref is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:35 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.