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Old
12-10-2012, 08:54 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. Holmstrom was there entirely for a net presence.
You're absolutely right. Babcock has a reason for putting people in a position that go beyond who is the most skilled. Thank you for proving my point.

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12-10-2012, 08:58 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Err, no. Quincey was acquired as an early replacement for Stuart, who Holland was 95% sure wouldn't be back.

But we'll ignore history and the fact that right after Quincey was acquired, Holland traded Commodore for nothing so he could bring Smith up. Give it up.
So why did Detroit need Quincey as a replacement if they already had Smith as a replacement? Why was Detroit able to lose Commodore AFTER the trade, but not before?

Why didn't Detroit trade Stuart sooner if they knew he wasn't going to be back?

Why do mediocre players like Kindl and Ericsson get spots over the future superstar Smith?

Why would Detroit sign White in the 2011 off-season if they were so packed on defense? Why did they sign Commodore as well?

Why would Detroit sign Colaiacovo in the 2012 off-season if they were so packed on defense?

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12-10-2012, 09:00 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
So why did Detroit need Quincey as a replacement if they already had Smith as a replacement? Why was Detroit able to lose Commodore AFTER the trade, but not before?

Why didn't Detroit trade Stuart sooner if they knew he wasn't going to be back?

Why do mediocre players like Kindl and Ericsson get spots over the future superstar Smith?

Why would Detroit sign White in the 2011 off-season if they were so packed on defense? Why did they sign Commodore as well?

Why would Detroit sign Colaiacovo in the 2012 off-season if they were so packed on defense?
I think you're letting hyperbole get in the way of your argument here. Who has ever claimed Smith will be a superstar?

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12-10-2012, 09:01 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
You're absolutely right. Babcock has a reason for putting people in a position that go beyond who is the most skilled. Thank you for proving my point.
You are making no sense. Net presence is key on a PP, and Holmstrom is the most skilled at that role. That is why he was put there. It helped spread out talent through both units as well.

Are you saying that a purely-offensive defenseman, has no place on a PP?

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12-10-2012, 09:02 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I think you're letting hyperbole get in the way of your argument here. Who has ever claimed Smith will be a superstar?
A lot of people, actually. And he is treated as that kind of prospect.

But the argument holds for any kind of player. Why make all these moves on defense, all of which involve having or gaining more defensemen, if they already have a defenseman that is ready?

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12-10-2012, 09:04 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
It was not jam-packed at all last season. In fact, they traded for another defenceman last season and wasted a 1st-round pick to do it.

Not to mention signed another one in the off-season. And signed one last off-season too.

And yes, if Smith is as good as his hype suggests, he would have been able to make the NHL by now.
He has played in the NHL, it is pretty clear you don't understand how Detroit uses and brings along their prospects. At no point have they been unhappy with Smith.

You're reaching because you don't follow the things they have said about him and what value they attach to him. This is how Detroit has done things and that is to the tune of being the most successful team in the league.

The reality is on the question of value as I have stated before they targeted 3 guys that had gone to an all-star game this last summer, he was unavailable. Holland and Babcock have said glowing things about him for two years running. They have a plan and are sticking to it. Might be the reason Detroit players trend and build, while other teams rush and destroy a lot more than the Wings.

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12-10-2012, 09:07 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
So why did Detroit need Quincey as a replacement if they already had Smith as a replacement? Why was Detroit able to lose Commodore AFTER the trade, but not before?

Why didn't Detroit trade Stuart sooner if they knew he wasn't going to be back?

Why do mediocre players like Kindl and Ericsson get spots over the future superstar Smith?

Why would Detroit sign White in the 2011 off-season if they were so packed on defense? Why did they sign Commodore as well?

Why would Detroit sign Colaiacovo in the 2012 off-season if they were so packed on defense?
Wish they had traded Stuart, he was terrible last year.

Kindl and Ericsson did not have contracts that could be sent down.

They needed a righthanded d-man in the worst way.

Colaiacovo is already behind him on every projected depth chart, including the ones both Holland and Babcock give when talking to the press.

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12-10-2012, 09:07 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
So why did Detroit need Quincey as a replacement if they already had Smith as a replacement? Why was Detroit able to lose Commodore AFTER the trade, but not before?
Because Stuart and Smith are complete opposites? Good Lord this is getting tiresome.

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Why didn't Detroit trade Stuart sooner if they knew he wasn't going to be back?
Well let's see here. Where should we start? The fact that no team in except for the three California teams would touch him, the fact that those three teams knew they could easily get him in free agency, or the fact that his value was virtually nothing because of the two previous reasons and it'd be a real ***** if Detroit traded him and it came back to bite them in the ass during the playoffs. (Which kinda sucks considering Stuart was easily our worst player during the Nashville series...)

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Why do mediocre players like Kindl and Ericsson get spots over the future superstar Smith?
Ericsson has the potential to be much better than he is, and can actually play the PK well. Babcock still believes in Kindl. Not to mention both of those guys are older and Smith still has the option of being sent down.

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Why would Detroit sign White in the 2011 off-season if they were so packed on defense? Why did they sign Commodore as well?
I've mentioned White's right-handed shot about five times in this thread now, haven't I?

Commodore was signed because Detroit isn't gonna let Smith spend his nights on the third pairing or in the press box when he could be getting 20-25 minutes a night in the AHL. Another thing I've mentioned multiple times tonight that still doesn't seem to register with you.

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Why would Detroit sign Colaiacovo in the 2012 off-season if they were so packed on defense?
To push Kindl, because Smith's already going above both of them.

You done talking in circles?

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12-10-2012, 09:10 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
A lot of people, actually. And he is treated as that kind of prospect.

But the argument holds for any kind of player. Why make all these moves on defense, all of which involve having or gaining more defensemen, if they already have a defenseman that is ready?
Okay, I must be missing all of these people saying that then. He's treated as an excellent prospect, and he certainly is. If a defensive prospect has top 4 potential(and higher), or top six potential, I don't know how you can not call them an excellent prospect. You might be underestimating the type of prospect it takes, these days, to be that caliber of player.

Because there may be a disagreement regarding Smith's NHL-readiness, or what would be best for his development? Babcock, from what I understand, wanted Smith on the team. Holland is the one who ultimately makes that decision, however. Sometimes you swing for the fence, and sometimes you make the safe play and just get on base. What Holland was doing was trying to get on base. If he liked the team he had, there is less motivation for him to insert Smith onto the team. It seems pretty clear that not everyone agreed with Holland's decision.

Edit: Furthermore, rookie players typically have far more ups and downs over the course of the season than veteran players. It goes with the territory. It could have been as simple as Holland believing a veteran player was the better decision. A proven NHL player, however "mediocre" you claim they are, brings a quality that few rookies can.

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12-10-2012, 09:11 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
He has played in the NHL, it is pretty clear you don't understand how Detroit uses and brings along their prospects. At no point have they been unhappy with Smith.

You're reaching because you don't follow the things they have said about him and what value they attach to him. This is how Detroit has done things and that is to the tune of being the most successful team in the league.

The reality is on the question of value as I have stated before they targeted 3 guys that had gone to an all-star game this last summer, he was unavailable. Holland and Babcock have said glowing things about him for two years running. They have a plan and are sticking to it. Might be the reason Detroit players trend and build, while other teams rush and destroy a lot more than the Wings.
Of course Detroit likes him. All teams like their prospects and say great things about them, especially former 1st-round picks.

I understand how Detroit works with prospects, it seems more than many of you. They don't keep players down if they are ready. They just take longer to get ready, and they don't give up on them unlike some other teams.

Being a successful team in this league has absolutely nothing to do with keeping good players off your team for longer.

Bringing a player up at 23-24 does not "ruin" a player.

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12-10-2012, 09:13 PM
  #86
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Okay, I must be missing all of these people saying that then. He's treated as an excellent prospect, and he certainly is.
Unless he's talking about HTT3, who I've emphasized several times shouldn't be taken seriously.

If he hates Smith for his hype he's really gonna hate Ouellet in a few years if he continues his current path of development.

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12-10-2012, 09:15 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Kindl and Ericsson did not have contracts that could be sent down.
They had contracts that could be traded.

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12-10-2012, 09:17 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
They had contracts that could be traded.
Aren't those two fairly young defensemen? That would be a pretty big risk for Detroit. What if Smith struggles? What if he needs to be sent down? That isn't very smart asset management.

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12-10-2012, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
They had contracts that could be traded.
And wouldn't that be a real ***** when Rafalski and Lidstrom retired and you're left with three defenders...

The senseless posting doesn't cease.

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12-10-2012, 09:22 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Of course Detroit likes him. All teams like their prospects and say great things about them, especially former 1st-round picks.

I understand how Detroit works with prospects, it seems more than many of you. They don't keep players down if they are ready. They just take longer to get ready, and they don't give up on them unlike some other teams.

Being a successful team in this league has absolutely nothing to do with keeping good players off your team for longer.

Bringing a player up at 23-24 does not "ruin" a player.
And he is penciled into the starting roster, so without the lockout we are three months deep into this.

There is another reason they do this in my opinion. That is to control these guys salaries when they are up for renegotiations. I don't really agree with it but it is hard to argue right now that Smith is going to get a huge deal right away. So the RFA deals most Wings see aren't that great and then they get a big role. You see both Kronwall and Filppula were kept under really what it would have cost if they busted out right away. I think that is a part of it and quite frankly it bothers me a little as a Wings fans.

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12-10-2012, 09:34 PM
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Aren't those two fairly young defensemen? That would be a pretty big risk for Detroit. What if Smith struggles? What if he needs to be sent down? That isn't very smart asset management.
Kindl really deserves better but that is another story. I have no idea what they are doing there, but that one is much more concerning than Smith's situation. Because they were unhappy with him during his time moving up.

Ericsson has a lot of promise as a stay at home type and actually only started playing defense at Smith's current age pretty much. Some think Bodin Detroit's seventh round pick last year will make a similar move. Really his first extended run as a D-man was in Grand Rapids.

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12-10-2012, 09:37 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Because Stuart and Smith are complete opposites? Good Lord this is getting tiresome.
What does this have to do with Stuart?

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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Well let's see here. Where should we start? The fact that no team in except for the three California teams would touch him, the fact that those three teams knew they could easily get him in free agency, or the fact that his value was virtually nothing because of the two previous reasons and it'd be a real ***** if Detroit traded him and it came back to bite them in the ass during the playoffs. (Which kinda sucks considering Stuart was easily our worst player during the Nashville series...)
Hmm.. if nobody in the league wants him, surely he isn't that great, and could be overtaken by a top 23-year old prospect, right?

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Ericsson has the potential to be much better than he is, and can actually play the PK well. Babcock still believes in Kindl. Not to mention both of those guys are older and Smith still has the option of being sent down.
Neither have much potential left at all. You don't make your team worse just because "oh, this guy can be sent down".

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Commodore was signed because Detroit isn't gonna let Smith spend his nights on the third pairing or in the press box when he could be getting 20-25 minutes a night in the AHL. Another thing I've mentioned multiple times tonight that still doesn't seem to register with you.
Being in the NHL would have been better for his development, and for the Wings (assuming his hype is warranted). That doesn't seem to register with you.

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To push Kindl, because Smith's already going above both of them.

You done talking in circles?
So why couldn't Smith go ahead of Kindl last year?

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12-10-2012, 09:44 PM
  #93
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I think Smith will be better than JKsilverstick seems to be implying, but I also agree with his point on the sample size. 14 games is not just a small sample size. It's hardly a sample size at all. A small sample size is something along the lines of 25-30 games in a row, or something closer to half a season of experience.
At the same time, people seem to consider Schultz some magical stud, and Gardiner some great future D-man. Schultz has a whole zero games played, and Gardiner has one season with 6 more goals and 23 more points in 61 more games.

The rub in all of this? In 2010, Smith was a Hobey Baker finalist when the three, as well as Ryan McDonagh, were on Wisconsin's blueline. So there's definitely something to the idea of Smith being an extremely good to great prospect given the thoughts concerning the other three, and how direct comparison on the same team ranked them.

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12-10-2012, 09:47 PM
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Okay, I must be missing all of these people saying that then. He's treated as an excellent prospect, and he certainly is. If a defensive prospect has top 4 potential(and higher), or top six potential, I don't know how you can not call them an excellent prospect. You might be underestimating the type of prospect it takes, these days, to be that caliber of player.
Top-4 potential is not that special for a prospect. People treat him as a top-2 with star qualities. When in reality, he is a top-4 potential, behind schedule.

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Edit: Furthermore, rookie players typically have far more ups and downs over the course of the season than veteran players. It goes with the territory. It could have been as simple as Holland believing a veteran player was the better decision. A proven NHL player, however "mediocre" you claim they are, brings a quality that few rookies can.
Knidl and Ericsson aren't exactly veterans.

Also, are you then saying that Detroit will never try out Smith as a prospect, because there will always be somebody with more NHL experience? That's a stupid concept.

Prospects at the age of 23 of Smith's hype-level should be able to help a team more than mediocre players with experience.

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12-10-2012, 09:47 PM
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What does this have to do with Stuart?
That a shot blocking, penalty killing defender should be replaced with one? Quincey's not exactly the one to fill that role but he is moreso than Smith, who is total offense, something Stuart absolutely wasn't.

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Hmm.. if nobody in the league wants him, surely he isn't that great, and could be overtaken by a top 23-year old prospect, right?
And this is exactly where we go back to the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. Go look up the reason why Stuart wasn't resigned and why he was traded, SPECIFICALLY to the Sharks. Then maybe you grasp an understanding of what I was saying.

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Neither have much potential left at all. You don't make your team worse just because "oh, this guy can be sent down".
Of course they don't! Neither does Smith, right?

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Being in the NHL would have been better for his development, and for the Wings (assuming his hype is warranted). That doesn't seem to register with you.
15 minutes a night vs. third and fourth line guys vs. 20-25 minutes a night against 1st line AHLers. Granted, there's a bit of a difference in talent level (Though not as much as some people might be led to believe as those third and fourth lines are often filled with guys who are there moreso due to the role that they play than for the skill that they have) but the amount of ice time greatly outweighs it.

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So why couldn't Smith go ahead of Kindl last year?
I'm done with this conversation. I've made it very clear several times now that Detroit isn't gonna call Smith up to play third pairing minutes or sit in the press box. Either you're too ignorant to understand that, or you're just rehashing the same stuff to be difficult. Either way, I'm done with the bull ****. Come up with something new or we're done.

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12-10-2012, 09:51 PM
  #96
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Aren't those two fairly young defensemen? That would be a pretty big risk for Detroit. What if Smith struggles? What if he needs to be sent down? That isn't very smart asset management.
They are 28 and 25. Not exactly young. They have shown what they have to bring, and it isn't much. If Kindl (the younger one) can be pushed behind Smith on the depth chart this year, why couldn't he last year?

And if you want to keep them, stop signing other guys.

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12-10-2012, 09:52 PM
  #97
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At the same time, people seem to consider Schultz some magical stud, and Gardiner some great future D-man. Schultz has a whole zero games played, and Gardiner has one season with 6 more goals and 23 more points in 61 more games.
That's a different argument entirely, though of the three only Gardiner has real NHL experience. Smith's lack of NHL experience shouldn't be held against Gardiner. Schultz is another matter entirely.

Quote:
The rub in all of this? In 2010, Smith was a Hobey Baker finalist when the three, as well as Ryan McDonagh, were on Wisconsin's blueline. So there's definitely something to the idea of Smith being an extremely good to great prospect given the thoughts concerning the other three, and how direct comparison on the same team ranked them.
I don't really see what that has to do with anything. This is college hockey we're talking about. All things being equal, a Junior is going to have an advantage over a Sophomore. You're basically saying an older, and more experienced Smith out-played a younger and less experienced Gardiner and Schultz. Okay... and?

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12-10-2012, 09:54 PM
  #98
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And wouldn't that be a real ***** when Rafalski and Lidstrom retired and you're left with three defenders...
Why would they be left with 3 defenders? That doesn't make sense.

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12-10-2012, 09:57 PM
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Why would they be left with 3 defenders? That doesn't make sense.
Lidstrom/Rafalski/Kronwall/Stuart/Ericsson/Kindl

Dump Ericsson and Kindl as you suggested. Get rid of Lidstrom and Rafalski due to retirement. Add White and Quincey who were acquired. Dump Stuart due to trade for which reasons you've made absolutely clear you don't understand.

That leaves you with three defenders, plus Smith.

Great idea!

Or you could just do it the way Detroit did it and have Kronwall/Quincey, Ericsson/Smith, White/Kindl.

But then again, your genius idea of dumping Ericsson and Kindl leaves us with two holes. Nice job.

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12-10-2012, 09:59 PM
  #100
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I don't really see what that has to do with anything. This is college hockey we're talking about. All things being equal, a Junior is going to have an advantage over a Sophomore. You're basically saying an older, and more experienced Smith out-played a younger and less experienced Gardiner and Schultz. Okay... and?
I know the response to this, Smith's final season out performed any of theirs. In any even Gardiner is a very different player from his Badgers days he has improved a lot. Still think Smith turns out better, but that isn't to say Gardiner hasn't improved a lot.

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