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Old
12-10-2012, 09:59 PM
  #101
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Talk about an argument with no facts to back it up

It's been stated several times that Babock, one of the best coaches in the league who is completely stubborn with young players (see Nyquist), wanted Smith on the team full-time last year but for some odd reason Holland didn't agree. KH is a great GM but when Babcock openly admits Smith should be in the NHL he should have listened.

Smith's 14 game stint is significant because he not only scred a lot of points, but he looked like the real deal (just like everywhere else).

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12-10-2012, 10:00 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
At the same time, people seem to consider Schultz some magical stud, and Gardiner some great future D-man. Schultz has a whole zero games played, and Gardiner has one season with 6 more goals and 23 more points in 61 more games.

The rub in all of this? In 2010, Smith was a Hobey Baker finalist when the three, as well as Ryan McDonagh, were on Wisconsin's blueline. So there's definitely something to the idea of Smith being an extremely good to great prospect given the thoughts concerning the other three, and how direct comparison on the same team ranked them.
The only comparison between them was done a long, long time ago, and both Schultz and Gardiner have progressed more since then.

There is a difference between 14 games being spoon-fed minutes, and 75 games playing some of the most minutes on the team.

And I think the Schultz hype train has got a bit out of hand too, but he is leading the entire AHL by quite a bit this season. At least he has done something for his hype.

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12-10-2012, 10:02 PM
  #103
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There is a difference between 14 games being spoon-fed minutes, and 75 games playing some of the most minutes on the team.
Absolutely. Toronto's defense sucks, thus it's easier to make their roster. If you think Gardiner would've made it to Detroit's roster anymore quickly than Smith did you're sadly mistaken.

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12-10-2012, 10:08 PM
  #104
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I know the response to this, Smith's final season out performed any of theirs. In any even Gardiner is a very different player from his Badgers days he has improved a lot. Still think Smith turns out better, but that isn't to say Gardiner hasn't improved a lot.
But it's still not the same. Players develop at different rates, and the individual player himself is not the only factor in the season they have. This still amounts to "Smith out-played younger, and less experienced players." and in the long-term, one college season is just not all that significant. These three players will be defined by their level of play in the NHL. Having a superior season in college doesn't equal a superior NHL player.

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12-10-2012, 10:14 PM
  #105
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Hmm.. if nobody in the league wants him, surely he isn't that great, and could be overtaken by a top 23-year old prospect, right?
Babcock has his favorites, and Stuart seemed to be one of them. Stuart has been one of the team's worst players the last two and a half years. Bertuzzi was the team's worst forward last year, yet spent the entire year on line one and was re-signed (largely at Babcock's request) before the end of the season.

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Neither have much potential left at all. You don't make your team worse just because "oh, this guy can be sent down".
Ericsson is just entering his prime and is going to be given a much larger role with the team, taking on the shut-down role Stuart had but couldn't handle (Ericsson already did this admirably at the end of last season). Kindl hasn't been given a ton of ice time, but when he's been given any consistent time he's looked very solid. IMHO he's better than Quincey.

The Wings have a young-ish defense of guys moving into their primes. Outside of Kronwall, potentially Smith, and a longshot (if he can reach his draft potential) in Kindl, there are no stars. But there's definitely quality in the quantity. Kronwall's a legit #1. White is a solid #2/3. Ericsson is a good #2/3. After that, Smith, Kindl, and Quincey all can be argued as top-four caliber. Carlo perhaps as well, although I'd probably set him as a #5.

Nobody expected Stuart to be as bad as he was. And nobody expected Commodore to be such a massive failure in replacing Salei. So it wasn't just about Smith; it was also about "what do we do with these other guys?" Holland figured that out later; he traded to get Quincey to take some of Stuart's minutes and effectively serve as the "Stuart replacement". He also traded Commodore. The problem is that Smith's defensive game isn't at a point where he could have been used to replace Stuart or Commodore in their roles. White or Kindl? Sure. He could have replaced them based on ability. But they were having strong years and there was no need or desire to replace them.

For as middling as Quincey is, he can definitely be said to be "good" at everything. He doesn't technically have a weakness in his game. He certainly doesn't have any major strengths other than versatility/good all-around game, and perhaps his PP skills... but he's a good spare part/depth defenseman because he can be slotted into just about any role and do well enough. I always preferred Derek Meech becaue while Meech doesn't have Quincey's physical game, he has a lot more speed and more offensive talent, and still can play a solid defensive game. Definitely didn't get a fair shake in Detroit with the whole Lebderp thing going on (another Babcock favorite).

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12-10-2012, 10:15 PM
  #106
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But it's still not the same. Players develop at different rates, and the individual player himself is not the only factor in the season they have. This still amounts to "Smith out-played younger, and less experienced players." and in the long-term, one college season is just not all that significant. These three players will be defined by their level of play in the NHL. Having a superior season in college doesn't equal a superior NHL player.
I get that I was just pointing out they also didn't hit his levels there either as they continued in their development. So to say they developed and then outperformed him would be inaccurate which was hinted at.

In any event Wings fans are going have to get used to this until Fehr and Bettman decide to stop the cold war. There are reasons we believe in Smith to a big level and it isn't just typical blind prospect faith. Detroit doesn't generally treat any of their kids to the level they have him. The only ones they have talked about like this that didn't pan out was Grigorenko who never really gave it a chance and had a horrible car accident. He also still manages to center the Radulov boys in Russia and has been a boarderline elite player in the KHL.

They don't miss on a lot of the guys they hype and they don't talk about them the way that Babcock and Holland do about Brendan Smith. Until we get real games beyond 14 impressive ones and years of good reviews at every level you can have this argument.

But we can tell you is why he hasn't broken in. That his value in terms of wanting to know what they Wings would want is still incredibly high. They offered every prospect of pretty much every value except Mrazek, Jarnkrok and Smith. It speaks to what the organization thinks of these three. They are not selling them, not even for talents like Rick Nash. That is the answer to this threads question.

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12-10-2012, 10:25 PM
  #107
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That a shot blocking, penalty killing defender should be replaced with one? Quincey's not exactly the one to fill that role but he is moreso than Smith, who is total offense, something Stuart absolutely wasn't.
Quincey is nothing like Stuart. Also, defense dynamics change as players change.

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12-10-2012, 10:28 PM
  #108
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Lidstrom/Rafalski/Kronwall/Stuart/Ericsson/Kindl

Dump Ericsson and Kindl as you suggested. Get rid of Lidstrom and Rafalski due to retirement. Add White and Quincey who were acquired. Dump Stuart due to trade for which reasons you've made absolutely clear you don't understand.

That leaves you with three defenders, plus Smith.

Great idea!

Or you could just do it the way Detroit did it and have Kronwall/Quincey, Ericsson/Smith, White/Kindl.

But then again, your genius idea of dumping Ericsson and Kindl leaves us with two holes. Nice job.
Why the hell would you trade both of them to make room for 1 player?

You would have Kronwall, White, Quincey, Smith, Colaiacovo, Kindl/Ericsson. That is 6.

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12-10-2012, 10:30 PM
  #109
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Absolutely. Toronto's defense sucks, thus it's easier to make their roster. If you think Gardiner would've made it to Detroit's roster anymore quickly than Smith did you're sadly mistaken.
Toronto's defense doesn't stuck. Gardiner would have made the Detroit roster, easily. Our roster was actually full too, and Gardiner wasn't supposed to make it, but we made room for a prospect who was showing he deserved to be in the NHL. What a concept.

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12-10-2012, 10:32 PM
  #110
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Why the hell would you trade both of them to make room for 1 player?

You would have Kronwall, White, Quincey, Smith, Colaiacovo, Kindl/Ericsson. That is 6.
Or you could have both, as we do now.

Annnnnndddd there goes your argument.

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12-10-2012, 10:34 PM
  #111
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Just read RedWings19405's post and he has the answer to your endless amount of questions/criticism.

EDIT: Ah I see, he's a Toronto fan. Now it all makes sense

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12-10-2012, 10:35 PM
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Or you could have both, as we do now.

Annnnnndddd there goes your argument.
And then you have 7 players to make up 6 spots, all expected to play. And we are back at square one, with people like you saying "He's a top prospect! No, really, he is! He can't break into the NHL because of all the other guys. That's the only reason."

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12-10-2012, 10:36 PM
  #113
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Toronto's defense doesn't stuck. Gardiner would have made the Detroit roster, easily. Our roster was actually full too, and Gardiner wasn't supposed to make it, but we made room for a prospect who was showing he deserved to be in the NHL. What a concept.
No he would not have, that isn't how Detroit does business. End of story, they even said Smith made the team but had options. Also please remember Smith was suspended at the end of the preseason and into the season which greatly impacted even being able to make that decision possible. But to suggest Gardiner a left handed shooting guy that Detroit was already loaded with makes the team is inaccurate. He would not have they would have sent him back because he has options.

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12-10-2012, 10:37 PM
  #114
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The only comparison between them was done a long, long time ago, and both Schultz and Gardiner have progressed more since then.
By what metric?

Did Andrew Ladd progress faster than Evgeni Malkin after being drafted? After all, Ladd was in the NHL in 2005-06, while Malkin was not. That MUST mean Ladd progressed more, and as they were picked closely together, Ladd was the better player at the time.



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There is a difference between 14 games being spoon-fed minutes, and 75 games playing some of the most minutes on the team.
There is also a difference between scoring points in the West and scoring points in the East.

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And I think the Schultz hype train has got a bit out of hand too, but he is leading the entire AHL by quite a bit this season. At least he has done something for his hype.
Smith has outperformed Gardiner at every level they've played at together. As for Schultz, I haven't seen official numbers and can't confirm this, but I read in another thread on HF that he was playing something along the lines of 5-6 minutes more per game than guys like Gardiner and Smith. That combined with Eberle/Nuge/etc. will definitely fluff the numbers.

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Absolutely. Toronto's defense sucks, thus it's easier to make their roster. If you think Gardiner would've made it to Detroit's roster anymore quickly than Smith did you're sadly mistaken.
Gardiner would be waiting longer; he's younger and was drafted a year later.

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12-10-2012, 10:38 PM
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No he would not have, that isn't how Detroit does business. End of story, they even said Smith made the team but had options. Also please remember Smith was suspended at the end of the preseason and into the season which greatly impacted even being able to make that decision possible. But to suggest Gardiner a left handed shooting guy that Detroit was already loaded with makes the team is inaccurate. He would not have they would have sent him back because he has options.
Yes, he would have. 100%, without a doubt. They have all of one defenceman better than him.

To think otherwise is delusional, regardless of how you think your team does business.

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12-10-2012, 10:39 PM
  #116
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Yes, he would have. 100%, without a doubt.

To think otherwise is delusional, regardless of how you think your team does business.

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12-10-2012, 10:41 PM
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Yes, he would have. 100%, without a doubt. They have all of one defenceman better than him.

To think otherwise is delusional, regardless of how you think your team does business.
Credibility level=0%

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12-10-2012, 10:41 PM
  #118
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I get that I was just pointing out they also didn't hit his levels there either as they continued in their development. So to say they developed and then outperformed him would be inaccurate which was hinted at.

In any event Wings fans are going have to get used to this until Fehr and Bettman decide to stop the cold war. There are reasons we believe in Smith to a big level and it isn't just typical blind prospect faith. Detroit doesn't generally treat any of their kids to the level they have him. The only ones they have talked about like this that didn't pan out was Grigorenko who never really gave it a chance and had a horrible car accident. He also still manages to center the Radulov boys in Russia and has been a boarderline elite player in the KHL.

They don't miss on a lot of the guys they hype and they don't talk about them the way that Babcock and Holland do about Brendan Smith. Until we get real games beyond 14 impressive ones and years of good reviews at every level you can have this argument.

But we can tell you is why he hasn't broken in. That his value in terms of wanting to know what they Wings would want is still incredibly high. They offered every prospect of pretty much every value except Mrazek, Jarnkrok and Smith. It speaks to what the organization thinks of these three. They are not selling them, not even for talents like Rick Nash. That is the answer to this threads question.
That's fair. Personally, I think Smith has a lot of promise, and I definitely think that Detroit's opinion of him should carry weight. Teams don't typically have high opinions of players without seeing something they really like. I just also agree that there is something to be said for taking the next step and proving one's self in the NHL. When it's all said and done, no one is going to care whether Smith, or Schultz, or Gardiner excels in the AHL, or what they did in the NCAA, if they can't get it done in the NHL. When it comes to quality prospects, it's all about the NHL, because that's the goal: To take a good prospect and see them turn into a good NHL player. Anything short of that is really just a disappointment, and trying to say "Well, but look what they did in this league..." is just bittersweet, because it's absolutely meaningless to the NHL team.

I still think that Smith really should have been in the NHL last season, but I fully acknowledge that I don't know as much about the situation as Detroit fans. In the long-term, it probably won't make any real difference at all, but the AHL is not the NHL, and I'm not sure what else Smith can do in the AHL. Even on the defensive side, the system and little things that need to be done in the NHL is something that is tough to learn in the AHL, because it just isn't something you see on a nightly basis. It's not as in your face as it would be in the NHL. Not as obvious.

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12-10-2012, 10:42 PM
  #119
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By what metric?

Did Andrew Ladd progress faster than Evgeni Malkin after being drafted? After all, Ladd was in the NHL in 2005-06, while Malkin was not. That MUST mean Ladd progressed more, and as they were picked closely together, Ladd was the better player at the time.

Malkin wasn't in the country, and that was the only reason. Totally different scenario.

Gardiner is severely outplaying Smith in both the NHL and AHL.

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There is also a difference between scoring points in the West and scoring points in the East.
No there isn't.

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Smith has outperformed Gardiner at every level they've played at together. As for Schultz, I haven't seen official numbers and can't confirm this, but I read in another thread on HF that he was playing something along the lines of 5-6 minutes more per game than guys like Gardiner and Smith. That combined with Eberle/Nuge/etc. will definitely fluff the numbers.
No, Smith has not outperformed at every level.

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12-10-2012, 10:43 PM
  #120
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Yes, he would have. 100%, without a doubt.

To think otherwise is delusional, regardless of how you think your team does business.
The Leafs selected in the top five regardless of how awesome that was. The Wings don't operate at a poor level. The haven't missed the playoffs for two decades, when the Leafs are almost at a decade without being there.

Lidstrom - White ( right handed, also HAND PICKED BY LIDSTROM)
Kronwall - Stuart
Ericsson (huge extension in the offseason, PK big stay at home) - Kindl (no more options would not be exposed to waivers)
Commodore (Brought in for size and toughness also right handed two things Babcock asked for) Also most important they will not sit quality prospects in the press box the don't believe in it.

They were full, nobody was breaking camp. Not Gardiner no matter what crazy pills you are taking. They don't do that, even when Babcock said Smith made the team they didn't do that.


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12-10-2012, 10:44 PM
  #121
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He's just a Toronto/Gardiner homer so theres reall no point trying to give any thoughtful replies

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12-10-2012, 10:45 PM
  #122
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Simple fact is, a 23-almost 24-year old with plenty of opportunity to make the roster, performing at a rather mediocre level in the AHL, does not deserve top-prospect status.

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12-10-2012, 10:47 PM
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The Leafs selected in the top five regardless of how awesome that was. The Wings don't operate at a poor level. The haven't missed the playoffs for two decades, when the Leafs are almost at a decade without being there.

Lidstrom - White ( right handed, also HAND PICKED BY LIDSTROM)
Kronwall - Stuart
Ericsson (huge extension in the offseason, PK big stay at home) - Kindl (no more options would not be exposed to waivers)
Commodore (Brought in for size and toughness also right handed two things Babcock asked for)

They were full, nobody was breaking camp. Not Gardiner no matter what crazy pills you are taking. They don't do that, even when Babcock said Smith made the team they didn't do that.
Detroit has made the playoffs so much recently because of Lidstrom and past luck. Don't start pretending it's because you hold out better players for no reason like an idiot.

Gardiner would have made the team. 100%. Think differently all you like, it just shows your delusion.

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12-10-2012, 10:48 PM
  #124
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Toronto's defense doesn't stuck. Gardiner would have made the Detroit roster, easily.
This is just getting too fun.

Gardiner: 75GP, 21:33 ATOI. 30 points. 52 hits, 90 blocked shots, 73 giveaways, 34 takeaways.

I'm not even going to compare that to Lidstrom or Kronwall, because I'm going to hope that you're at least smart enough to know that he wouldn't get a spot over either of them.

Stuart: 81GP, 21:03 ATOI. 21 points. 177 hits. 115 blocked shots. 27 giveaways. 22 takeaways.

Gardiner better offensively, no doubt. Stuart destroys him defensively.

Quincey: 72GP, 21:51 ATOI. 26 points. 101 hits. 94 blocked shots. 35 giveaways. 24 takeaways.

Gardiner slightly better offensively. Quincey probably edges him out defensively due to physicality and not having an abysmal giveaway/takeaway ratio.

White: 77GP, 22:58 ATOI. 32 points. 49 hits. 92 Blocked shots. 32 giveaways. 20 takeaways.

Both of them even offensively. Almost even defensively until you get back into that abysmal giveaway takeaway shot ratio of Gardiner's.

In all honesty, I see White as Detroit's #5 this year. Probably be up on the #1PP due to being a righty. Oh, speaking of that right handed shot, even if he and Gardiner weren't even, White's still getting the spot due to being Detroit's only right-handed defender.


So that's five defenders Gardiner doesn't get in over. Even if you take issue with one of them, there's four others. That puts Gardiner on the bottom pairing. Just like Smith, they're not gonna waste his time on the bottom pairing.

It was a valiant effort though.

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Our roster was actually full too, and Gardiner wasn't supposed to make it, but we made room for a prospect who was showing he deserved to be in the NHL. What a concept.
That must be why Toronto has made the playoffs for 21 years straight, and Detroit has missed them for over 10 years.

Wait... I got that wrong...

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12-10-2012, 10:49 PM
  #125
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I think it's impossible to say one way or the other. It may be possible that Gardiner could have played his way onto the team, in a sense forcing the issue, but Detroit has also shown a clear tendency to play it safe and work players in more slowly. The situation in Toronto is just not the same at all, and making one team doesn't mean he makes another. Even if Gardiner is better than some of the defensemen who beat him out, and I'm not entirely sure that's the case, it's not always as simple as putting the best players on the team. Were that the case, I would have expected Smith to make it. Sometimes you want the right players.

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