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If Chara's career ends today, is he in the Hall of Fame?

View Poll Results: If Chara's career were over, would he be inducted into the Hall of Fame?
Yes 136 66.02%
No 70 33.98%
Voters: 206. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-10-2012, 06:59 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Consecutive Norris Trophies and significant Hart consideration over a three year span is more significant than anything Chara has or will likely ever accomplish by a lot.

Not if Langway didn't deserve it. You seem to be getting caught up in Langway's accolades, which some(perhaps most) would argue he didn't deserve, instead of actually looking at the value of his play during those seasons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Additionally, Chara's peak (what you're referring to is prime) is actually either shorter than Lagnway's (only really giving him 2009) or dragged down by mediocre seasons in comparison (2007-2012).

Chara's PEAK from 2007-2012 doesn't include any "mediocre" seasons, each one of Chara's seasons during that span are better than Langway's 82-83 and 83-84 seasons in which you seem to be so enamored with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
The reason for the hyperbole is because you're trying to compare a player getting in largely off of career accomplishment and being consistently very good (Chara) to a player getting in virtually entirely off of an absurd three year stretch to go with merely adequate longevity.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I would never describe Langway's two season stretch as "absurd", especially in comparison to Chara's 2007-2012 seasons.

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Old
12-10-2012, 07:10 PM
  #27
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Maybe not first balot, but he'd go to the hall. Cup ring, fastest slapshot, accomplishments aside, just his sheer size was enough to make a name for himself. He's one of the few who actually utilized his size well and has the ability to completely render stars ineffective (a la Kessel )

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Old
12-10-2012, 07:23 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Consecutive Norris Trophies and significant Hart consideration over a three year span is more significant than anything Chara has or will likely ever accomplish by a lot.
In a vacuum? Probably, but not all Norrises are equal (not everyone with one was a 139 point Bobby Orr, for example), and "significant" Hart consideration over a 5+ year span is actually longer and better than 3... But I can foresee "significant" turning into a battle of semantics. Is the line drawn between simply coming up in conversation and actually turning up on ballots, or at some threshold % of total vote or relative ratio to other finalists? Ready to treat this fairly across years where the voting and points systems differed as well?

Besides, Bourque was already clearly the better defenseman in '82/83 AND '83/84 imo (after all, he was the 1st all-star in the two years previous, and the two years following as well, including '83/84), and for my money even Potvin and Robinson were still better at the time, so I don't know what to make of that Norris other than no one being impressed with Coffey's production yet, either. That's not the point, though. Point is, that while there's always an argument to be made for/against any trophy finalist in any year, Langway's back-to-back Norrises are among the few that will always have an "asterisk" for me as mysteries/timing/"undeserving", and I don't think I'm alone.

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Old
12-10-2012, 08:14 PM
  #29
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He's a lock. I dont see how anyone can make a case against him.

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Old
12-10-2012, 08:17 PM
  #30
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Old
12-10-2012, 08:23 PM
  #31
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I voted a resounding yes, very difficult player to play against. Can beat you in many ways and he is a warrior.

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12-10-2012, 09:30 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grouch View Post
Not if Langway didn't deserve it. You seem to be getting caught up in Langway's accolades, which some(perhaps most) would argue he didn't deserve, instead of actually looking at the value of his play during those seasons.
Okay, so he's still finishing second to the likes of Howe and Bourque in contested votings. And it's really hard to attribute all of his accolades to media narrative, when he's a first team all star in the 84 Canada Cup too, and virtually every eyewitness account of Langway during this span of time period backs up the accolades he achieved on the merit of his own play. Whether people couldn't properly valuate Bourque or Howe over this time shouldn't matter, especially when both of these guys are better than the defensemen beating Chara for awards and consideration over the span you're referring to as Chara's peak.

Quote:
Chara's PEAK from 2007-2012 doesn't include any "mediocre" seasons, each one of Chara's seasons during that span are better than Langway's 82-83 and 83-84 seasons in which you seem to be so enamored with.
When we're talking about elite defensemen, and your example of Chara's peak includes one of the all-time weakest seasons for top-end defensemen ever (2011), words like mediocre are defensible. And I reject both that there isn't a dropoff between Chara's Norris win and every other season he's played and that any of those seasons are better than Langway's peak. If he repeats his 2009 in any season you just listed, he's either winning the Norris or finishing second to Lidstrom and Keith.

Quote:
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I would never describe Langway's two season stretch as "absurd", especially in comparison to Chara's 2007-2012 seasons.
Again, you're confusing prime with peak. Langway's is either better because it's twice as long, or because Chara's is worse on average because you have to include bridge seasons. I will admit that I should have used "from a defensive standpoint" to characterize the comparison when using "absurd," but now we're getting into semantics. Chara gets closer to Langway peak-wise when you take into account offense, but it's also very telling that Chara had to set a career-high in goals in order to separate himself from his competition and actually win the Norris.

And if we're giving Chara "Captain credit" for the Bruins in 2011 despite him not factoring into Smythe discussion for the entire playoffs, how do we properly value Boston's historic collapse only a year before?

Also, for the record, I'm arguing specifically in these arenas: A) Devils advocating against a player I think is a borderline-but-eventually-in selection and B) arguing against using a one-dimensional player who is in almost entirely off of a high level of peak performance and a lot of accolades over a short period of time (with an adequately long NHL career otherwise) as a baseline to measure someone who would get in as a career guy.

But yeah, agree to disagree. Solid arguments.


Last edited by struckbyaparkedcar: 12-10-2012 at 09:57 PM.
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Old
12-10-2012, 10:31 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
The Cup put him over the top, IMO. I think Blake is a decent comparable.

The only thing I can really say against him is that he doesn't have a dominant playoff run. Without a Conn Smythe winning performance in net, the Bruins haven't gotten past the second round of the playoffs. Even into the 2011 Finals, he was the fourth Bruin listed in Puckdaddy's Smythe favorites

There isn't even a set of games I can think of as "Chara's series."

That being said, he's easily the second-best Bruin from the 2011 team on paper, and again, that's probably enough to get him there.
Lol Puckdaddy. Chara was easily the Bruins 2nd best/MVP of the 2011 playoffs.

Also Im not sure why Chara needs to be compared to Langway when discussing his HOF worthiness. His resume speaks for itself.

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Old
12-10-2012, 10:39 PM
  #34
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He'll definitely have to wait, but he'll probably end up getting in in a weaker year.

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Old
12-10-2012, 11:32 PM
  #35
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Habs fan and I say yes, his awards speak for themselves, and hes been a very consistent player in the last decade, in fact if you forget his islanders days, he put up over 40 points per season in 8 of his 10 seasons while playing against the oponents top lines.

Altough i also doubt he'll get first ballot, but he'll definitely get in unless something drasticly changes...

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Old
12-10-2012, 11:34 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
He'll definitely have to wait, but he'll probably end up getting in in a weaker year.
At the very worst he'll get in on his 2nd try.

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Old
12-11-2012, 02:35 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Okay, so he's still finishing second to the likes of Howe and Bourque in contested votings. And it's really hard to attribute all of his accolades to media narrative, when he's a first team all star in the 84 Canada Cup too, and virtually every eyewitness account of Langway during this span of time period backs up the accolades he achieved on the merit of his own play. Whether people couldn't properly valuate Bourque or Howe over this time shouldn't matter, especially when both of these guys are better than the defensemen beating Chara for awards and consideration over the span you're referring to as Chara's peak.


When we're talking about elite defensemen, and your example of Chara's peak includes one of the all-time weakest seasons for top-end defensemen ever (2011), words like mediocre are defensible. And I reject both that there isn't a dropoff between Chara's Norris win and every other season he's played and that any of those seasons are better than Langway's peak. If he repeats his 2009 in any season you just listed, he's either winning the Norris or finishing second to Lidstrom and Keith.


Again, you're confusing prime with peak. Langway's is either better because it's twice as long, or because Chara's is worse on average because you have to include bridge seasons. I will admit that I should have used "from a defensive standpoint" to characterize the comparison when using "absurd," but now we're getting into semantics. Chara gets closer to Langway peak-wise when you take into account offense, but it's also very telling that Chara had to set a career-high in goals in order to separate himself from his competition and actually win the Norris.

And if we're giving Chara "Captain credit" for the Bruins in 2011 despite him not factoring into Smythe discussion for the entire playoffs, how do we properly value Boston's historic collapse only a year before?

Also, for the record, I'm arguing specifically in these arenas: A) Devils advocating against a player I think is a borderline-but-eventually-in selection and B) arguing against using a one-dimensional player who is in almost entirely off of a high level of peak performance and a lot of accolades over a short period of time (with an adequately long NHL career otherwise) as a baseline to measure someone who would get in as a career guy.

But yeah, agree to disagree. Solid arguments.

I don't know how you can say Chara's 2011(I'm assuming you meant 10-11) season is "one of the all-time weakest seasons for top-end defensemen ever."

Chara's Regular Season Rank among Defensemen:
Points: 19th
+/-: 1st
Time on Ice: 4th
Offensive Point Shares*: 16th
Defensive Point Shares*: 4th
Total Point Shares*: 5th
3rd Place in Norris Trophy Voting

Playoffs:
Points: T-8th
+/-: 1st
Stanley Cup Champion

*Point Shares are a value based metric, just one of many, but if you look at GVT it tells a similar story.

I'm dumbfounded that you think that is one of the "all-time weakest seasons for top-end defensemen ever", your whole argument(especially the bridge seasons narrative) starts to unravel from there.

Again, I'm not confusing peak with prime. Chara's last 5 seasons have been so consistent(at an elite level) that his peak is more like a plateau...

YearPointsPoint SharesPS Rank/Defensemen 
07-085110.55th 
08-095010.54th 
09-104410.26th 
10-114410.05th 
11-125210.94th 

That is amazing consistency! Those years represent Chara's PEAK... Chara entered his PRIME around 2002.

We've reached an impasse, but I think we got a bit(or a lot ) off track anyway, this thread was about Chara making the HoF and we seem agree on that.

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Old
12-11-2012, 02:51 AM
  #38
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Unless his play falls off a cliff, he should get reasonably quick. If he can get another Norris he'll be a first ballot guy.

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Old
12-11-2012, 10:11 AM
  #39
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Here's another way of looking at it. This shows the players who have earned the most Norris trophy votes from 1999 (Chara's first full season) to 2012, scaled so that a unanimous Norris trophy is worth 100 points in each year.

Total Norris trophy votes (adjusted), 1999-2012

Nicklas Lidstrom 807
Zdeno Chara 335
Chris Pronger 229
Scott Niedermayer 227
Al MacInnis 188
Shea Weber 149
Mike Green 143
Rob Blake 137
Sergei Gonchar 113
Duncan Keith 93

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Old
12-11-2012, 10:57 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
At the very worst he'll get in on his 2nd try.
Depends on the classes. Guys that are 35+ in the NHL right now who'll have a chance at the HoF are Brodeur, Chara, St. Louis, Selanne, Jagr, Iginla, Alfredsson, maybe some others but those are the ones I found. That actually seems like it's not that deep seeing as not all of them will retire in the same year.

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Old
12-11-2012, 11:43 AM
  #41
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Not right away, but he'd get in.

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Old
12-11-2012, 11:26 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Okay, so he's still finishing second to the likes of Howe and Bourque in contested votings. And it's really hard to attribute all of his accolades to media narrative, when he's a first team all star in the 84 Canada Cup too, and virtually every eyewitness account of Langway during this span of time period backs up the accolades he achieved on the merit of his own play. Whether people couldn't properly valuate Bourque or Howe over this time shouldn't matter, especially when both of these guys are better than the defensemen beating Chara for awards and consideration over the span you're referring to as Chara's peak.


When we're talking about elite defensemen, and your example of Chara's peak includes one of the all-time weakest seasons for top-end defensemen ever (2011), words like mediocre are defensible. And I reject both that there isn't a dropoff between Chara's Norris win and every other season he's played and that any of those seasons are better than Langway's peak. If he repeats his 2009 in any season you just listed, he's either winning the Norris or finishing second to Lidstrom and Keith.


Again, you're confusing prime with peak. Langway's is either better because it's twice as long, or because Chara's is worse on average because you have to include bridge seasons. I will admit that I should have used "from a defensive standpoint" to characterize the comparison when using "absurd," but now we're getting into semantics. Chara gets closer to Langway peak-wise when you take into account offense, but it's also very telling that Chara had to set a career-high in goals in order to separate himself from his competition and actually win the Norris.

And if we're giving Chara "Captain credit" for the Bruins in 2011 despite him not factoring into Smythe discussion for the entire playoffs, how do we properly value Boston's historic collapse only a year before?

Also, for the record, I'm arguing specifically in these arenas: A) Devils advocating against a player I think is a borderline-but-eventually-in selection and B) arguing against using a one-dimensional player who is in almost entirely off of a high level of peak performance and a lot of accolades over a short period of time (with an adequately long NHL career otherwise) as a baseline to measure someone who would get in as a career guy.

But yeah, agree to disagree. Solid arguments.
Out of all the years from 2008 to 2012, 2009 was actually the year Chara had the fewest even-strength points. His defensive play has also been pretty solid every year, and I believe it's a part of the reason Thomas and Rask's numbers have looked so good (although Thomas is a great goalie in his own right).

The ONLY thing he did better in 2009 than in the other seasons was power play performance. Unless you place a very high value on producing offence on the PP, there is no dropoff between Chara's Norris season and his other 2008-2012 seasons.

Also, Chara was pretty vital to that 2011 playoff run. He didn't get Smythe consideration, and neither did any other Bruin skater, because their goalie was the clear #1. But Chara was probably their 2nd best player.

Langway was one of the best defensive defencemen of all time, but Chara is much better than him offensively. The argument here is that Chara's 5 best years are pretty close to Langway's 3 best, so Chara's career accomplishments should be enough to get him in.

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Old
12-11-2012, 11:32 PM
  #43
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Too many so not hall of famers in hall of fame so why not.

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12-11-2012, 11:50 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
Depends on the classes. Guys that are 35+ in the NHL right now who'll have a chance at the HoF are Brodeur, Chara, St. Louis, Selanne, Jagr, Iginla, Alfredsson, maybe some others but those are the ones I found. That actually seems like it's not that deep seeing as not all of them will retire in the same year.
Chara is 35 and I would guess he plays for at least 3 more years. Brodeur, Selanne and Jagr are close to done so I assume they will get in before Chara retires. St. Louis and Alfredsson wont go in over Chara. So yeah I see him getting in on his 1st or 2nd try.

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12-12-2012, 12:37 AM
  #45
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He won't make it on the first ballot, but I'd bet my bank account he'll be there eventually.

I think his career is better than Pronger's, who I also think will get in.

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12-12-2012, 12:58 AM
  #46
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Will Chara - other than Langway - be the worst offensive defenseman in the HOF?

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12-12-2012, 01:02 AM
  #47
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I think his efforts with Slovakia helps his cause as well. I think he'd make the cut.

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12-12-2012, 01:12 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Will Chara - other than Langway - be the worst offensive defenseman in the HOF?
He'll probably be the third worst post-expansion offensive defenseman to be in the HHOF after Rod Langway and Serge Savard.

There are quite a few defensive defensemen who played before the 1967 expansion to be inducted.

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12-12-2012, 01:48 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Okay, so he's still finishing second to the likes of Howe and Bourque in contested votings. And it's really hard to attribute all of his accolades to media narrative, when he's a first team all star in the 84 Canada Cup too, and virtually every eyewitness account of Langway during this span of time period backs up the accolades he achieved on the merit of his own play. Whether people couldn't properly valuate Bourque or Howe over this time shouldn't matter, especially when both of these guys are better than the defensemen beating Chara for awards and consideration over the span you're referring to as Chara's peak.


When we're talking about elite defensemen, and your example of Chara's peak includes one of the all-time weakest seasons for top-end defensemen ever (2011), words like mediocre are defensible. And I reject both that there isn't a dropoff between Chara's Norris win and every other season he's played and that any of those seasons are better than Langway's peak. If he repeats his 2009 in any season you just listed, he's either winning the Norris or finishing second to Lidstrom and Keith.


Again, you're confusing prime with peak. Langway's is either better because it's twice as long, or because Chara's is worse on average because you have to include bridge seasons. I will admit that I should have used "from a defensive standpoint" to characterize the comparison when using "absurd," but now we're getting into semantics. Chara gets closer to Langway peak-wise when you take into account offense, but it's also very telling that Chara had to set a career-high in goals in order to separate himself from his competition and actually win the Norris.

And if we're giving Chara "Captain credit" for the Bruins in 2011 despite him not factoring into Smythe discussion for the entire playoffs, how do we properly value Boston's historic collapse only a year before?

Also, for the record, I'm arguing specifically in these arenas: A) Devils advocating against a player I think is a borderline-but-eventually-in selection and B) arguing against using a one-dimensional player who is in almost entirely off of a high level of peak performance and a lot of accolades over a short period of time (with an adequately long NHL career otherwise) as a baseline to measure someone who would get in as a career guy.

But yeah, agree to disagree. Solid arguments.
Statistics alone tell very little about Chara's play. Some can argue 08-09 wasn't even his most deserving year for the Norris.

Yes he would get in, eventually a this point. In another 2-5 seasons when he retires, he will definitely get in.

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Old
12-12-2012, 03:16 AM
  #50
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Yes he would get in, eventually at this point. In another 2-5 seasons when he retires, he will definitely get in.
this is my thoughts exactly

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