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Old
12-10-2012, 09:52 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I think it's impossible to say one way or the other. It may be possible that Gardiner could have played his way onto the team, in a sense forcing the issue, but Detroit has also shown a clear tendency to play it safe and work players in more slowly. The situation in Toronto is just not the same at all, and making one team doesn't mean he makes another. Even if Gardiner is better than some of the defensemen who beat him out, and I'm not entirely sure that's the case, it's not always as simple as putting the best players on the team. Were that the case, I would have expected Smith to make it. Sometimes you want the right players.
Which Babcock actually said Smith did make the team but contracts and things he wasn't real happy about it, so it makes the point he is trying to make pretty silly.

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12-10-2012, 09:52 PM
  #127
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Its times like these you really start to hate the lockout.

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12-10-2012, 09:53 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
This is just getting too fun.

Gardiner: 75GP, 21:33 ATOI. 30 points. 52 hits, 90 blocked shots, 73 giveaways, 34 takeaways.

Stuart: 81GP, 21:03 ATOI. 21 points. 177 hits. 115 blocked shots. 27 giveaways. 22 takeaways.

Gardiner better offensively, no doubt. Stuart destroys him defensively.

Quincey: 72GP, 21:51 ATOI. 26 points. 101 hits. 94 blocked shots. 35 giveaways. 24 takeaways.

Gardiner slightly better offensively. Quincey probably edges him out defensively due to physicality and not having an abysmal giveaway/takeaway ratio.

White: 77GP, 22:58 ATOI. 32 points. 49 hits. 92 Blocked shots. 32 giveaways. 20 takeaways.
I have to laugh at you using hits and such to try and prove defensive ability, though I guess it is irrelevant anyway because you are trying to compare arbitrary stats across teams.

None of what you just posted proves anything. Heck, even you didn't give an argument for why Stuart, White or Quincey were better. You said they were equal or worse.

The only logical thing you have said is that White probably gets a spot because he is the only right-handed shot. That's probably right, but that doesn't speak to abilities, and still leaves Gardiner in the top-4. Gardiner is better than White.

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So that's five defenders Gardiner doesn't get in over. Even if you take issue with one of them, there's four others. That puts Gardiner on the bottom pairing. Just like Smith, they're not gonna waste his time on the bottom pairing.
Whoops, forgot Lidstrom for last year. Two defenders better than Gardiner. Nothing you have shown has proven that any of the other guys were better than Gardiner.

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12-10-2012, 09:56 PM
  #129
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Whoops, forgot Lidstrom for last year. Two defenders better than Gardiner. Nothing you have shown has proven that any of the other guys were better than Gardiner.
And you have no way to prove that Gardiner, in Detroit, would have been better than those players. In Toronto, he was in a very different situation, with different responsibilities. You're basically jumping to the conclusion that Gardiner, in Detroit, gets the same results as Gardiner did in Toronto. Not just that, you're assuming that Detroit would somehow know that Gardiner would be the player he was, when not even Toronto was sure.

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12-10-2012, 09:56 PM
  #130
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Which Babcock actually said Smith did make the team but contracts and things he wasn't real happy about it, so it makes the point he is trying to make pretty silly.
Then he is a terrible coach, and Holland is a terrible GM, because you never make your team worse because "Oh, I'm not too happy about the contracts", whatever that means.

You can't say "Oh, well Smith SHOULD have made the team, so he is an NHL player". It doesn't work like that. You look at what he has done, and he has not done enough at the level he actually played to warrant his hype.

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12-10-2012, 09:57 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
I have to laugh at you using hits and such to try and prove defensive ability, though I guess it is irrelevant anyway because you are trying to compare arbitrary stats across teams.

None of what you just posted proves anything. Heck, even you didn't give an argument for why Stuart, White or Quincey were better. You said they were equal or worse.

The only logical thing you have said is that White probably gets a spot because he is the only right-handed shot. That's probably right, but that doesn't speak to abilities, and still leaves Gardiner in the top-4. Gardiner is better than White.


Whoops, forgot Lidstrom for last year. Two defenders better than Gardiner. Nothing you have shown has proven that any of the other guys were better than Gardiner.
So how do you explain Gardiner's autrocious giveaway/takeway ratio?

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12-10-2012, 09:57 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Then he is a terrible coach, and Holland is a terrible GM, because you never make your team worse because "Oh, I'm not too happy about the contracts", whatever that means.

You can't say "Oh, well Smith SHOULD have made the team, so he is an NHL player". It doesn't work like that. You look at what he has done, and he has not done enough at the level he actually played to warrant his hype.
Okay so a four time cup champion GM and a member of the triple gold club don't know what they are doing?

I honestly don't even... I just

It also does work like that they said so publically.

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12-10-2012, 09:58 PM
  #133
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And you have no way to prove that Gardiner, in Detroit, would have been better than those players. In Toronto, he was in a very different situation, with different responsibilities. You're basically jumping to the conclusion that Gardiner, in Detroit, gets the same results as Gardiner did in Toronto. Not just that, you're assuming that Detroit would somehow know that Gardiner would be the player he was, when not even Toronto was sure.
I agree. None of us know exactly what would have happened, but fact is Gardiner is the 3rd best defenseman on that team. Even if you "have" to have White because he shoots a different way, to think that he wouldn't make the team is to say that Detroit is horribly managed and don't do what is best for their team.

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12-10-2012, 10:00 PM
  #134
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Okay so a four time cup champion GM and a member of the triple gold club don't know what they are doing?

I honestly don't even... I just
Obviously they don't, assuming everything you say is correct.

Though more likely, everything you say isn't correct, and there were reasons for keeping him down, based on his play, beyond keeping his next contract cheap. And that would suggest that if that is still happening to this player at 23, then he is not one of the top prospects in the league.

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12-10-2012, 10:02 PM
  #135
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So how do you explain Gardiner's autrocious giveaway/takeway ratio?
Giveaways and takeaways are a meaningless stat that isn't even regulated throughout the NHL, but as almost always happens, players on bad teams (and players who play more) have worse giveaway stats than players on good teams.

You cannot rank giveaway ratios and say "these are the best defensive players". Not even close...

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12-10-2012, 10:04 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
I agree. None of us know exactly what would have happened, but fact is Gardiner is the 3rd best defenseman on that team. Even if you "have" to have White because he shoots a different way, to think that he wouldn't make the team is to say that Detroit is horribly managed.
Your definition of "fact" is different than mine. That's your opinion. It's not fact. Toronto basically had nothing to lose by giving Gardiner his shot, and even so, they still sheltered him defensively, and put him in a great position to succeed. Detroit wasn't in the same position, as making the playoffs isn't just a hope on that team, it's an expectation.

Gardiner wasn't an NHL vet, where you knew what you were going to get from him. It wouldn't be the first time a skilled young player was left off of a team, and it wouldn't have been the last. I think Gardiner would have needed to blow Holland away, or he'd have gone down the same as Smith.

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12-10-2012, 10:04 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
I have to laugh at you using hits and such to try and prove defensive ability, though I guess it is irrelevant anyway because you are trying to compare arbitrary stats across teams.
You're right, how dare I bring up defensive statistics to show who's a better defenseman.

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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
None of what you just posted proves anything. Heck, even you didn't give an argument for why Stuart, White or Quincey were better. You said they were equal or worse.
You continue to prove that you're either completely incapable of reading, or that your reading is incredibly selective.

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Gardiner better offensively, no doubt. Stuart destroys him defensively.

Gardiner slightly better offensively. Quincey probably edges him out defensively due to physicality and not having an abysmal giveaway/takeaway ratio.

Both of them even offensively. Almost even defensively until you get back into that abysmal giveaway takeaway shot ratio of Gardiner's.

In all honesty, I see White as Detroit's #5 this year. Probably be up on the #1PP due to being a righty. Oh, speaking of that right handed shot, even if he and Gardiner weren't even, White's still getting the spot due to being Detroit's only right-handed defender.


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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
The only logical thing you have said is that White probably gets a spot because he is the only right-handed shot. That's probably right, but that doesn't speak to abilities, and still leaves Gardiner in the top-4. Gardiner is better than White.
Gardiner probably is better. Still not getting that spot over White because of the factor of White's handedness.

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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Whoops, forgot Lidstrom for last year. Two defenders better than Gardiner. Nothing you have shown has proven that any of the other guys were better than Gardiner.
Actually I've shown a lot, the only people who can't see it are those who have these on:



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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Then he is a terrible coach, and Holland is a terrible GM, because you never make your team worse because "Oh, I'm not too happy about the contracts", whatever that means.

You can't say "Oh, well Smith SHOULD have made the team, so he is an NHL player". It doesn't work like that. You look at what he has done, and he has not done enough at the level he actually played to warrant his hype.
Ahh yes! Let's compare Babcock and Holland's resumes to Carlyle's and Burke's.

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12-10-2012, 10:08 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Obviously they don't, assuming everything you say is correct.

Though more likely, everything you say isn't correct, and there were reasons for keeping him down, based on his play, beyond keeping his next contract cheap. And that would suggest that if that is still happening to this player at 23, then he is not one of the top prospects in the league.
Not to insinuate anything, but can I have whatever your on?

Seriously though, stop projecting Gardiner onto Detroit's roster because you obviously do not understand the situation in Detroit nor how hockey works.

Gardiner is a LD, meaning he plays on the Left Side. Lidstrom and Kronwall both play(ed) on the left side and could not play together. Gardiner nor Smith are better than either of them and neither of them can play RD (right defense). Hence both would be in the bottom pairing, at best, and probably sitting regularly due to an overabundance of LD behind Kronwall and Lidstrom. Replace Smith with Gardiner and Gardiner would have been playing in the AHL last season too.

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12-10-2012, 10:11 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Your definition of "fact" is different than mine. That's your opinion. It's not fact. Toronto basically had nothing to lose by giving Gardiner his shot, and even so, they still sheltered him defensively, and put him in a great position to succeed. Detroit wasn't in the same position, as making the playoffs isn't just a hope on that team, it's an expectation.

Gardiner wasn't an NHL vet, where you knew what you were going to get from him. It wouldn't be the first time a skilled young player was left off of a team, and it wouldn't have been the last. I think Gardiner would have needed to blow Holland away, or he'd have gone down the same as Smith.
And Gardiner did blow people away in his first chunk of games, which is why we were forced to keep him up. And it did come with a less than ideal situation, having to sit an NHL player in Franson.

He was also not sheltered defensively.

All of this is irrelevant anyway. Fact is, Smith did not make the NHL (and regardless of the endless reasons people try and give, he had the opportunity). His play in the league he did make, was not top-of-the-league prospect worthy.

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12-10-2012, 10:11 PM
  #140
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Ahh yes! Let's compare Babcock and Holland's resumes to Carlyle's and Burke's.
Carlyle may not be the best example. His resume is actually pretty good, especially when you consider what he was able to do in Anaheim without much in the way of depth. Burke, I'd say, is more hit and miss. He fell into a real nice situation in Anaheim, but he also made some great decisions that lead to a Cup. Unfortunately, he made some bad ones too. I've been much less impressed with him in Toronto, when he doesn't have the same type of foundation to build on.

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12-10-2012, 10:13 PM
  #141
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Gardiner is a LD, meaning he plays on the Left Side. Lidstrom and Kronwall both play(ed) on the left side and could not play together. Gardiner nor Smith are better than either of them and neither of them can play RD (right defense). Hence both would be in the bottom pairing, at best, and probably sitting regularly due to an overabundance of LD behind Kronwall and Lidstrom. Replace Smith with Gardiner and Gardiner would have been playing in the AHL last season too.
Smith can occasionally play on the right, has done so with Kronwall. But that wasn't the plan, they are doing exactly what they want with Smith. Hard to argue with the results we have enjoyed, we will see when the season finally starts. However, pretty easily the amount of turnovers Gardiner pumps out would have got him a bus ticket to Grand Rapids in Detroit in the event (which never would have happened) that he broke camp.

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12-10-2012, 10:14 PM
  #142
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Carlyle may not be the best example. His resume is actually pretty good, especially when you consider what he was able to do in Anaheim without much in the way of depth. Burke, I'd say, is more hit and miss. He fell into a real nice situation in Anaheim, but he also made some great decisions that lead to a Cup. Unfortunately, he made some bad ones too. I've been much less impressed with him in Toronto, when he doesn't have the same type of foundation to build on.
Carlyle's not bad, but once you bring up who has the best win% over the last 10 years the argument is dead in the water.

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12-10-2012, 10:14 PM
  #143
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You're right, how dare I bring up defensive statistics to show who's a better defenseman.
Those are not defensive stats.

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You continue to prove that you're either completely incapable of reading, or that your reading is incredibly selective.
No, I read it fine. You keep saying Gardiner is beter or equal at stuff, but the team would go another direction. Right.

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Ahh yes! Let's compare Babcock and Holland's resumes to Carlyle's and Burke's.
Not sure what Carlyle and Burke have to do with this.

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12-10-2012, 10:14 PM
  #144
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And Gardiner did blow people away in his first chunk of games, which is why we were forced to keep him up. And it did come with a less than ideal situation, having to sit an NHL player in Franson.

He was also not sheltered defensively.

All of this is irrelevant anyway. Fact is, Smith did not make the NHL (and regardless of the endless reasons people try and give, he had the opportunity). His play in the league he did make, was not top-of-the-league prospect worthy.
I'm sorry, but the advanced stats say he was sheltered defensively. He may have played a lot of minutes, but he was put in a position to succeed. That he did so is certainly a feather in his cap, but playing a lot of minutes isn't the same as playing tough minutes. His puck moving ability, and his offensive game, is definitely noteworthy, but his defense still leaves a lot to be desired.

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12-10-2012, 10:15 PM
  #145
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Not to insinuate anything, but can I have whatever your on?

Seriously though, stop projecting Gardiner onto Detroit's roster because you obviously do not understand the situation in Detroit nor how hockey works.

Gardiner is a LD, meaning he plays on the Left Side. Lidstrom and Kronwall both play(ed) on the left side and could not play together. Gardiner nor Smith are better than either of them and neither of them can play RD (right defense). Hence both would be in the bottom pairing, at best, and probably sitting regularly due to an overabundance of LD behind Kronwall and Lidstrom. Replace Smith with Gardiner and Gardiner would have been playing in the AHL last season too.
How do you know neither of them can play right defense? Plenty of players play on their off-hand. Some even prefer it.

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12-10-2012, 10:16 PM
  #146
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Carlyle's not bad, but once you bring up who has the best win% over the last 10 years the argument is dead in the water.
Wonder what that's impacted by... Oh, right! The team.

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12-10-2012, 10:17 PM
  #147
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I'm sorry, but the advanced stats say he was sheltered defensively. He may have played a lot of minutes, but he was put in a position to succeed. That he did so is certainly a feather in his cap, but playing a lot of minutes isn't the same as playing tough minutes. His puck moving ability, and his offensive game, is definitely noteworthy, but his defense still leaves a lot to be desired.
No, the advanced stats do not say he was sheltered, but this is not the point of this thread. That discussion has already been had plenty of times.

And let's falsely say he was. Still better to be "sheltered defensively" in the NHL and excel than to still be in the AHL 2 years older, and playing average.

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12-10-2012, 10:17 PM
  #148
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Wonder what that's impacted by... Oh, right! The team.
Wait I thought are team was terrible and lottery team rookie d-man could some how make it right now?

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12-10-2012, 10:17 PM
  #149
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And Gardiner did blow people away in his first chunk of games, which is why we were forced to keep him up. And it did come with a less than ideal situation, having to sit an NHL player in Franson.

He was also not sheltered defensively.
Lower QUALCOMP than Lidstrom/Kronwall/Stuart/Quincey/White.

Oops.

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12-10-2012, 10:19 PM
  #150
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Wonder what that's impacted by... Oh, right! The team.
You're right, Detroit's team is better than Toronto's. Hence why Gardiner made it to Toronto and Smith's just now making it to Detroit.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You're defeating your own arguments.

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