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Old
12-10-2012, 11:21 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
No, the advanced stats do not say he was sheltered, but this is not the point of this thread. That discussion has already been had plenty of times.

And let's falsely say he was. Still better to be "sheltered defensively" in the NHL and excel than to still be in the AHL 2 years older, and playing average.
You might want to look again. The advanced stats are pretty clear on this. The only thing you can dispute is really how much you should read into those stats.

The point is that a team like Detroit isn't going to want to shelter a young rookie. We're talking about a perennial playoff team. Why shelter a rookie, when you can just wait a season or two until you don't need to anymore? The situation was different in Toronto.

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12-10-2012, 11:21 PM
  #152
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Wonder what that's impacted by... Oh, right! The team.
That's a great argument for why Gardiner may not have made the team, I'd think.

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12-10-2012, 11:23 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Wait I thought are team was terrible and lottery team rookie d-man could some how make it right now?
Teams don't need to have 19 all-stars playing to be a winning team. There was plenty of room for Smith, if he was at the level that the hype suggests.

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12-10-2012, 11:24 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Smith can occasionally play on the right, has done so with Kronwall. But that wasn't the plan, they are doing exactly what they want with Smith. Hard to argue with the results we have enjoyed, we will see when the season finally starts. However, pretty easily the amount of turnovers Gardiner pumps out would have got him a bus ticket to Grand Rapids in Detroit in the event (which never would have happened) that he broke camp.
I have seen Kronner play RD, but he is much too good on the left-side for Babcock to consider doing it regularly or even permanently to open up a spot for Smith OR Gardiner.

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12-10-2012, 11:26 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
You might want to look again. The advanced stats are pretty clear on this. The only thing you can dispute is really how much you should read into those stats.

The point is that a team like Detroit isn't going to want to shelter a young rookie. We're talking about a perennial playoff team. Why shelter a rookie, when you can just wait a season or two until you don't need to anymore? The situation was different in Toronto.
I looked plenty, and I saw your bias on the issue in other threads. I'm not getting into the totally off-topic argument about whether he was sheltered.

The amount of "sheltering" you claim Gardiner got is going to happen to Smith whether he is 23, 24, or 30. You "shelter" (according to you) a rookie because it has to be done at some point, and even with the "sheltering", you get a greatly superior player out of it in the present, which can help you be and remain a perennial playoff team.

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12-10-2012, 11:27 PM
  #156
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That's a great argument for why Gardiner may not have made the team, I'd think.
Except being a play-off team doesn't mean you have 6 all-star defencemen.

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12-10-2012, 11:28 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Simple fact is, a 23-almost 24-year old with plenty of opportunity to make the roster, performing at a rather mediocre level in the AHL, does not deserve top-prospect status.
Have you been watching Griffins games? He's been pretty solid, IMO. He does a ton more away from the puck than he used to and handles himself defensively despite getting the toughest minutes on the team. The only thing I really wish he would do is shoot the puck more, especially on the PP. He has a great shot.

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12-10-2012, 11:28 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Except being a play-off team doesn't mean you have 6 all-star defencemen.
Nope, just enough that are good enough that's it's not worth wasting a good prospect on 3rd pairing minutes. Nice backpedal though.

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12-10-2012, 11:33 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Teams don't need to have 19 all-stars playing to be a winning team. There was plenty of room for Smith, if he was at the level that the hype suggests.
Babcock wanted him on the team, but Detroit was loaded with LD and had several contracts on players that couldn't be moved down to the AHL, so they sent Smith down to get as much PT as possible while keeping the more experienced (older) players in NHL.

If Holland thought so little of Smith to keep him off the team due to his play, why was he only made available in Detroit's offer for Weber?

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How do you know neither of them can play right defense? Plenty of players play on their off-hand. Some even prefer it.
Detroit had a couple of guys play RD while being left-handed. Brad Stuart to name one. Unfortunately he also happened to be one of the worst Red Wings the entire season, the only reason he wasn't benched was because he was still better than Commodore.


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12-10-2012, 11:35 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Eerie Hurdler View Post
Have you been watching Griffins games? He's been pretty solid, IMO. He does a ton more away from the puck than he used to and handles himself defensively despite getting the toughest minutes on the team. The only thing I really wish he would do is shoot the puck more, especially on the PP. He has a great shot.
I agree. He has been pretty solid. He hasn't done enough to propel himself in the top category of league prospects.

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12-10-2012, 11:36 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by 2MGoBlue2 View Post
Babcock wanted him on the team, but Detroit was loaded with LD and had several contracts on players that couldn't be moved down to the AHL, so they sent Smith down to get as much PT as possible while keeping the more experienced (older) players in NHL.

If Holland thought so little of Smith to keep him off the team due to his play, why was he only made available in Detroit's offer for Weber?



Detroit had a couple of guys play RD while being left-handed. Brad Stuart to name one. Unfortunately he also happened to be one of the worst Red Wings the entire season, the only reason he wasn't benched was because he was still better than Commodore.

Pretty sure he was a part of the Nash offer too. If that rumor was true, Holland must have enjoyed quite a bit of whiskey before offering, and if Howson legitimately turned it down it's no wonder Columbus sucks as much as they do.

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12-10-2012, 11:39 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by 2MGoBlue2 View Post
If Holland thought so little of Smith to keep him off the team due to his play, why was he only made available in Detroit's offer for Weber?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here...

Being willing to trade him isn't exactly a good thing.

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Detroit had a couple of guys play RD while being left-handed. Brad Stuart to name one. Unfortunately he also happened to be one of the worst Red Wings the entire season, the only reason he wasn't benched was because he was still better than Commodore.
Yep, so Stuart was crap. Commodore was crap. Kindl and Ericsson are dime-a-dozen. Remind me again why this top prospect was held off the team at age 23?

BTW, just because one guy can't play off-hand very well, doesn't mean everybody is incapable of doing it.

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12-10-2012, 11:40 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Nope, just enough that are good enough that's it's not worth wasting a good prospect on 3rd pairing minutes. Nice backpedal though.
3rd-line minutes don't waste good prospects. Nice back-pedal though.

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12-10-2012, 11:41 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by 2MGoBlue2 View Post
I have seen Kronner play RD, but he is much too good on the left-side for Babcock to consider doing it regularly or even permanently to open up a spot for Smith OR Gardiner.
Kronwall is a LD, the point was on his first callup on the west coast Smith played RD. He also has done it with Janik down in Grand Rapids. I think he is a little better on the left, but he can play both sides, he does have that versatility. Where Babcock really seems to dislike this is the PP. Part of why White and Sammy will get run out at right point this year if it ever happens.

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12-10-2012, 11:42 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Pretty sure he was a part of the Nash offer too. If that rumor was true, Holland must have enjoyed quite a bit of whiskey before offering, and if Howson legitimately turned it down it's no wonder Columbus sucks as much as they do.
Or maybe he was offered and maybe it was turned down because he's not quite as good as you think.

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12-10-2012, 11:42 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
3rd-line minutes don't waste good prospects. Nice back-pedal though.
They do when the other two lines are currently more advanced. Still talking in circles I see.

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12-10-2012, 11:44 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Pretty sure he was a part of the Nash offer too. If that rumor was true, Holland must have enjoyed quite a bit of whiskey before offering, and if Howson legitimately turned it down it's no wonder Columbus sucks as much as they do.
He was not in the Nash offer, Gus was as far as the big time prospects remember Ansar saying he wasn't in it.

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12-10-2012, 11:44 PM
  #168
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They do when the other two lines are currently more advanced. Still talking in circles I see.
No, they don't.

All regular Detroit defensemen got plenty of time. Not to mention Smith would have got additional PP time.

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12-10-2012, 11:44 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Or maybe he was offered and maybe it was turned down because he's not quite as good as you think.
The offer was rumored to be three of the four of Franzen/Filppula/Smith/Nyquist and then a pick on top of it.

I'm sure you'll say what they got from New York is better. Thankfully, that will just further prove how ignorant you are.

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12-10-2012, 11:48 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here...

Being willing to trade him isn't exactly a good thing.


Yep, so Stuart was crap. Commodore was crap. Kindl and Ericsson are dime-a-dozen. Remind me again why this top prospect was held off the team at age 23?

BTW, just because one guy can't play off-hand very well, doesn't mean everybody is incapable of doing it.
1. The whole point was that Holland was only willing to give up Smith in a package for a #1 defensemen. Basic reading comprehension is a good thing.

2. I never said that, I was merely providing an example to show that, yes I have seen it, and that just because a guy can play on his off-hand doesn't make him any good at it.

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Pretty sure he was a part of the Nash offer too. If that rumor was true, Holland must have enjoyed quite a bit of whiskey before offering, and if Howson legitimately turned it down it's no wonder Columbus sucks as much as they do.
I never heard he was apart of the Nash offer. Don't take my word of it, I'm not an "insider", but I'm pretty sure Smith wasn't involved in that trade.

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12-10-2012, 11:48 PM
  #171
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No, they don't.

All regular Detroit defensemen got plenty of time. Not to mention Smith would have got additional PP time.
Ericsson got 17 a night, two of that being PK time Smith wouldn't get. Kindl got 15 a night.

And no, with Lidstrom and Kronwall QBing PP's Smith likely wouldn't have been on the PP. White goes with Lidstrom because of the right handed shot. Kronwall gets a forward. (Which I'm not a fan of, but Babcock has been doing it for years)

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12-10-2012, 11:49 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
The offer was rumored to be three of the four of Franzen/Filppula/Smith/Nyquist and then a pick on top of it.

I'm sure you'll say what they got from New York is better. Thankfully, that will just further prove how ignorant you are.
Personally, I don't think it was (then again, I don't think that was really the offer). But obviously it was, because that was the trade chosen.

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12-10-2012, 11:51 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by 2MGoBlue2 View Post
1. The whole point was that Holland was only willing to give up Smith in a package for a #1 defensemen. Basic reading comprehension is a good thing.

2. I never said that, I was merely providing an example to show that, yes I have seen it, and that just because a guy can play on his off-hand doesn't make him any good at it.



I never heard he was apart of the Nash offer. Don't take my word of it, I'm not an "insider", but I'm pretty sure Smith wasn't involved in that trade.
Early rumors that it was Franzen or Filppula, a prospect, and a pick. The only guys I had ever heard of for prospects were Smith and Nyquist. I think it came out later that there were three players involved, plus a pick.

Either way, in all honesty, Franzen or Filppula + Smith or Nyquist + Pick is likely better than what Columbus got out of New York.

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12-10-2012, 11:51 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by 2MGoBlue2 View Post
1. The whole point was that Holland was only willing to give up Smith in a package for a #1 defensemen. Basic reading comprehension is a good thing.
How do you know he wasn't offered for other things, and it just wasn't public knowledge?

Even if he wasn't, why does that mean anything? That says nothing about the type of player he is going to be. It just says Detroit likes him, like all teams do with some of their prospects.

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2. I never said that, I was merely providing an example to show that, yes I have seen it, and that just because a guy can play on his off-hand doesn't make him any good at it.
Yeah, some guys can't do it. Some can, and play just as well or better.

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12-10-2012, 11:52 PM
  #175
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The offer was rumored to be three of the four of Franzen/Filppula/Smith/Nyquist and then a pick on top of it.

I'm sure you'll say what they got from New York is better. Thankfully, that will just further prove how ignorant you are.
Well this is what Chuck Pleiness and Ansar Kahn said about it.

Pleiness:

Quote:
That's a pretty steep asking price for any team, including the Wings, who would more than likely have to part with proven talent like Johan Franzen or Valtteri Filppula and perhaps even throw in an up-and-coming star like Darren Helm or Gustav Nyquist.
Khan:

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No counteroffer, no back and forth negotiation, nothing. It is clear Columbus has no intention of trading the face of its franchise to the team it considers to be its top rival, a Detroit club that has dominated the Blue Jackets since they entered the NHL in 2000-01.

The last thing Columbus general manager Scott Howson wants to see is Nash being paired with Pavel Datsyuk and his Blue Jackets having to deal with that scenario six times a season.
They also a pick and rumors they would consider throwing in Ouellet or Sproul maybe but weren't high on that either. Jurco and Pulkkinen (God I wish) also were thought to be high on Columbus' list but Howson just wouldn't trade him in division.

So basically they would consider moving Franzen or Filppula with Helm or Nyquist a first and maybe another prospect. But that prospect would not be named Smith.

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