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Jan 6/13: CBA reached to end the Lockout. Rejoice! (Post#783)

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12-09-2012, 11:36 AM
  #301
Street Hawk
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Originally Posted by Hammer79 View Post
I'd like to know what the real reason is behind the contract length limits, 5 years for new signings, 7 years for re-signing a player. Is it to reduce the player's ability to cash in while they are in their prime? Is it about insuring players contracts? IIRC it's hard to get insurance beyond 7 years on a players contract. On the latter point, I could see the argument.

On the former point, I don't think that the NHL's tactic will work as intended. I just think that the players in their prime will just get larger deals on shorter term, because they were giving volume discounts. ie instead of 13 year $98M for Suter we would have seen a 5 year $55M deal. If Suter can get more than $43M over the next 8, he's still better off.
I think with the back diving deals in place now, NHL is going over the top to fix them.

5% variance should fix that.

Term length, I'm personally for it. Part of it is insurance. Part of it is making sure that the player continues to be motivated. See some deals that teams would like to have back like Gomez, Drury, Redden (NYR guys) and some others. I think this gets settled for 6 years across the board then.

Take Suter for example, if you say he could sign for $55 million over 5 years, then if you remove the backdiving portion of his current 13 year deal, he has 6 years left to make $40 million. Final 2 years at about $3 million total right?

Again, I think it's also about ensuring that all of the salary paid to a player is applied against the salary cap.

Remember Naslund when he signed a 2 year deal with the Rangers. Cap hit was $4.5 million, salary was to be $5 million in yr 1 and $4 million in year 2. He retired after year 1 (under age 35 when he signed). So, the Rangers paid him $5 million, but were only on the hook cap wise for $4.5 million, so that half million was never applied to the cap.

That's also why the NHL is after hidding players like Huet, Redden, Nylander in the minors and getting their salaries applied against the cap. Nucks did that too with some players earning NHL salaries in the minors. Now it's anyone making more than $1 million that will be counted against the salary cap.

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12-09-2012, 02:54 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
That is what Tyler Dellow (Oilers blogger, generally on statistics) argues here: http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=5098 (good article about possible reasons for the PA to hold out over this issue)
good article. However, it supports why i want to see contract lengths limited. As he says, these guys get rewarded for being stars ... regardless of whether or not they are stars with staying power. Which is exactly what pisses me off and screws up a team where someone signs the long term deal then starts to suck, or is perennially injured.

I have a close friend who makes NHL type money, and has been doing it for 20 years. They had a employee they were trying to bring into the firm as a partner. The were having a problem negotiating a deal. After a full day of dealing, they reached an agreement, shook hands and went out to dinner to celebrate. During the dinner the guy said "you know what would really make me happy". They looked at each other and said, "this isn't going to work" ... and the guy was gone.

The NHL and the PA almost had a deal, the Fehr walked in and said "you know what would really make me happy?" And it was not some minor detail ... and all of the hard work was wasted. Maybe if Fehr comes crawling back, because I think they were wrong on both contract length and CBA length. Contract length because it screws both the fans and the teams sometimes (never the players) and becasue the longer this agreement is signed for the better for everyone.

As I said before, I hope Betman says "put the last deal to the players for a binding vote" before we come back to the table.

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12-09-2012, 03:08 PM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer79 View Post
I'd like to know what the real reason is behind the contract length limits, 5 years for new signings, 7 years for re-signing a player. Is it to reduce the player's ability to cash in while they are in their prime? Is it about insuring players contracts? IIRC it's hard to get insurance beyond 7 years on a players contract. On the latter point, I could see the argument.

On the former point, I don't think that the NHL's tactic will work as intended. I just think that the players in their prime will just get larger deals on shorter term, because they were giving volume discounts. ie instead of 13 year $98M for Suter we would have seen a 5 year $55M deal. If Suter can get more than $43M over the next 8, he's still better off.
there is small degree of that, but at the at end off the day the cap hit is king. Parise and Suter eating $22-24m of a 65m cap is suicide.

The article listed earlier is wrong, it states Parise gets 53m in 5 as part of a long years deals,without the 6+ years he'd want to be compensated with 60m in 5. He might want but he wouldn't get it. He wouldn't even get the 53m because no team is paying him that if it can't defraud the cap.

If ever moneypuck took over the NHL it the mid-tier guys are dirt cheap and guys like Parise are pulling down 12m cap hits.


Last edited by me2: 12-09-2012 at 05:14 PM.
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12-09-2012, 03:54 PM
  #304
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It would be nice if the new CBA included a clause that obliged each player, owner, union rep, and league rep to eat one turd as a sign of penance to the fans once all this ends.

Also, if they allow the next agreement to run out, it's a turd a day for everyone involved until they sort things out. I'm sure a lot of fans would line up to keep them in good supply.

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12-09-2012, 05:16 PM
  #305
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It would be nice if the new CBA included a clause that obliged each player, owner, union rep, and league rep to eat one turd as a sign of penance to the fans once all this ends.

Also, if they allow the next agreement to run out, it's a turd a day for everyone involved until they sort things out. I'm sure a lot of fans would line up to keep them in good supply.

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12-10-2012, 07:40 PM
  #306
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NHL cancels all games through December 30th.

I've lost just about all hope for an NHL season, and I can't believe it's come to this. The 2005 lockout was a complete overhaul of the NHL's CBA and it's rules, this lockout was only supposed to be needing tweaking and it should've been over months ago.

Really frustrated with both the NHL and the NHLPA.

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12-10-2012, 07:45 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
NHL cancels all games through December 30th.

I've lost just about all hope for an NHL season, and I can't believe it's come to this. The 2005 lockout was a complete overhaul of the NHL's CBA and it's rules, this lockout was only supposed to be needing tweaking and it should've been over months ago.

Really frustrated with both the NHL and the NHLPA.
Just as Don Fehr just said in his last PC, owners in all the major pro sports resort to locking out its players as a first resort rather than a last, it's standard operating procedure now. They bully until they get what they want.

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12-10-2012, 07:54 PM
  #308
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Just as Don Fehr just said in his last PC, owners in all the major pro sports resort to locking out its players as a first resort rather than a last, it's standard operating procedure now. They bully until they get what they want.
We've already lost half of a season, the next cancellation from the NHL is the remainder of the season.

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12-10-2012, 07:59 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
We've already lost half of a season, the next cancellation from the NHL is the remainder of the season.
100% chance of an NHL season. People keep looking at what they say rather than what they are doing. Both sides say they can't move any further... then they both do.

I called it from the start, it's a game of chicken until the end. Someone might end up with a bloody nose if they don't blink but it'll get done. Hockey will be played.

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12-10-2012, 08:03 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
We've already lost half of a season, the next cancellation from the NHL is the remainder of the season.
Oh well...plenty of other things to watch on TV or do with that time. Unfortunate, but a part of pro sports nowadays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
100% chance of an NHL season. People keep looking at what they say rather than what they are doing. Both sides say they can't move any further... then they both do.

I called it from the start, it's a game of chicken until the end. Someone might end up with a bloody nose if they don't blink but it'll get done. Hockey will be played.
I think there will be too...but I also thought that they'd have had it figured out before November. Didn't think they were stupid enough to mess with a $3.3B cash cow. Proven wrong.

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12-10-2012, 08:07 PM
  #311
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I think there will be too...but I also thought that they'd have had it figured out before November. Didn't think they were stupid enough to mess with a $3.3B cash cow. Proven wrong.
A lost season would be a disaster for the bottom line but half a season? It's not a big deal. Any publicity is good publicity, as they say, the NHL probably gets in the news more for ending the lockout than they would otherwise at this time of year. I really think this has been the plan from the start.

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12-10-2012, 08:09 PM
  #312
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A lost season would be a disaster for the bottom line but half a season? It's not a big deal. Any publicity is good publicity, as they say, the NHL probably gets in the news more for ending the lockout than they would otherwise at this time of year. I really think this has been the plan from the start.
True...but they have also pissed off a lot of fans and sponsors. I'm sure they'll get them back but it might take some time to get back to where they were. They were on such a roll prior to this.

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12-10-2012, 08:12 PM
  #313
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Losing the playoffs would really hurt the owners. I can't imagine they're going to take that.

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12-10-2012, 08:17 PM
  #314
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True...but they have also pissed off a lot of fans and sponsors.
Sure they have but it's more of an "I came home late" kind of pissed off not an "I slept with your sister" kind of pissed off

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12-10-2012, 09:05 PM
  #315
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Think of it this way. The ratings are probably the same now as the cup finals.

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12-10-2012, 09:17 PM
  #316
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I used to think they'd manage to put their egos aside and hammer out a deal by November. I also used to think there's no way the NHL would be fool enough to lockout the players again. The last lockout was about fixing a broken system to some degree, this time it's about...? Killing the geese that lay the golden eggs, pretty much. There needs to be a drastic shift in the NHL owners' culture for this problem to ever go away imho. Away from the Lord vs serfs mentality, away from blaming the players endlessly for signing contracts offered by the teams, away from constant internal pissing contests and rivalries being of paramount importance. The problem is, I just don't see how that can ever happen without all the old school dinosaurs finally becoming extinct.

*sigh*

*deep sigh*

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12-10-2012, 09:26 PM
  #317
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Well my Christmas is officially ruined.

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12-10-2012, 09:32 PM
  #318
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As I have mentioned a number of times, the predicition was a lockout and a prolonged battle. Reason? Because the owners are fighting over revenue sharing, and it was going to take kicking the players in the balls to fund it. the players will benefit from revenue sharing, but the rich owners didnt want to pay it.

I am happy to see 5 yr contract limits - 7 yrs to resign which is also good , a slight edge to signing at home. And I want to see a 10 yr CBA so we don't have to put up with this **** anymore.

I think Fehr is going to go to Batman and say "toss me a bone and lets settle close to where we were." The players are insane to kill a season, even if they are being bent over like a drunk fat girl at a frat party. (yes its tasteless I know).

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12-10-2012, 10:44 PM
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
Just as Don Fehr just said in his last PC, owners in all the major pro sports resort to locking out its players as a first resort rather than a last, it's standard operating procedure now. They bully until they get what they want.
^
NHL spent over a year trying to begin talks ,, It was Fehr that refused

NHL only had one option and that was lockout as keeping the past CBA wasn't viable for owners and they had legal right to terminate it

And Fehr's 94 strike is one of the reasons leagues lockout now as soon as CBA expires because it is not viable playing without a CBA in modern sports as Fehr helped usher in the strike to screw owners right before playoffs tactic

Of course the NHLPA used that tactic before as well in 1992

So given NHLPA/Fehr history a lockout was no doubt as there refusal to discuss CBA was sign that players were gearing up for a lockout

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12-10-2012, 11:36 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
^
NHL spent over a year trying to begin talks ,, It was Fehr that refused

NHL only had one option and that was lockout as keeping the past CBA wasn't viable for owners and they had legal right to terminate it

And Fehr's 94 strike is one of the reasons leagues lockout now as soon as CBA expires because it is not viable playing without a CBA in modern sports as Fehr helped usher in the strike to screw owners right before playoffs tactic

Of course the NHLPA used that tactic before as well in 1992

So given NHLPA/Fehr history a lockout was no doubt as there refusal to discuss CBA was sign that players were gearing up for a lockout
I can agree that Fehr held up the process, but to suggest that a lockout was the NHL's only option is *********. They could have negotiated like adults rather than petulant children. Their opening offer was a farce and a virtual declaration of war.

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12-11-2012, 12:05 AM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I can agree that Fehr held up the process, but to suggest that a lockout was the NHL's only option is *********. They could have negotiated like adults rather than petulant children. Their opening offer was a farce and a virtual declaration of war.
I think that take on the NHL's first offer is rather melodramatic. It was just part of a negotiation; there was no reason for anything to be taken personally. The PA merely feigned being insulted as justification for refusing to engage in negotiations.

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12-11-2012, 12:10 AM
  #322
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I can agree that Fehr held up the process, but to suggest that a lockout was the NHL's only option is *********. They could have negotiated like adults rather than petulant children. Their opening offer was a farce and a virtual declaration of war.
Both sides have acted that way. While the owners opening offer had horrible optics it clearly signaled the middle ground and end game, which they're near now. This is a common negotiating tactic, though it was very poorly executed. Based on the way both sides have negotiated, I wonder if they could have gotten to where they are today in dollar terms without it (that's because I have no faith in either side negotiating it otherwise).

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12-11-2012, 12:14 AM
  #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProstheticConscience View Post
I used to think they'd manage to put their egos aside and hammer out a deal by November. I also used to think there's no way the NHL would be fool enough to lockout the players again. The last lockout was about fixing a broken system to some degree, this time it's about...? Killing the geese that lay the golden eggs, pretty much. There needs to be a drastic shift in the NHL owners' culture for this problem to ever go away imho. Away from the Lord vs serfs mentality, away from blaming the players endlessly for signing contracts offered by the teams, away from constant internal pissing contests and rivalries being of paramount importance. The problem is, I just don't see how that can ever happen without all the old school dinosaurs finally becoming extinct.

*sigh*

*deep sigh*
Lord vs serf? Really?

I'm not pro owner, the players deserve every dollar they can negotiate. It's a huge pie and I don't really take either side seriously when they use the labour rhetoric. I mean yeah, it's a lock out, but this isn't a blue collar warehouse with padlocks on the door.

IMO the CBA should be about making the game better, how ever the HRR gets split up everyone makes a buncha cash. 50-50 linked makes it a partnership. I'd like to hear the owners spell out why they've picked certain mountains to die on, but most of their contract stuff I feel would benefit the competitiveness of the league.

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12-11-2012, 01:54 AM
  #324
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The NHL are fighting for the betterment of the league. Whichever way you look at it.

Hence, why I'm a huge proponent of the players "losing". As a fan, I have no reason, and honestly, could care less what the players get.

50-50 is more than fair. The players are acting like they gave the world by coming down those number. Such a farce.

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12-11-2012, 02:00 AM
  #325
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Originally Posted by Edonator View Post
The NHL are fighting for the betterment of the league. Whichever way you look at it.

Hence, why I'm a huge proponent of the players "losing". As a fan, I have no reason, and honestly, could care less what the players get.

50-50 is more than fair. The players are acting like they gave the world by coming down those number. Such a farce.
If by "betterment of the league" you mean putting more money in their pockets, then sure, it's for the "betterment of the league".

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