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Old
12-10-2012, 10:38 PM
  #726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Blacker is good defensively, decent size, right side, good skater. Quality prospect and good fit. Colborne center with size, fits mould Gillis wants team to get bigger. Good buy low project. Many fans from both sides have agreed to this deal.
Blacker is a B prospect. Colborne is a B prospect who's looking more and more like a C prospect.

I don't care if many fans from both sides have agreed to the deal. It seems like some Canucks fans have resorted to just dumping Luongo. I highly doubt Gillis will.

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12-10-2012, 10:39 PM
  #727
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I wouldn't say that's the consensus.

Personally if none of Lupul, Kulemin, or a 1st are coming our way, I'm not that interested in the package.

I have my doubts you'll like the package then

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12-10-2012, 10:46 PM
  #728
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Because it's convenient to trade one of them and address a hole elsewhere? How does that not make sense? It doesn't make sense to deal Luongo for the crap that's been offered on here, but if we get a deal that makes sense we'd be all for it.
Again though, you're trading away 'elite' to 'fill holes'... so Luongo is worth the value of a stop gap player? If that's the case then you will get scrap offers. ITs a lose lose for Canucks fans now. It has to be.

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12-10-2012, 10:48 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by MakeTheIronSing View Post
Again though, you're trading away 'elite' to 'fill holes'... so Luongo is worth the value of a stop gap player? If that's the case then you will get scrap offers. ITs a lose lose for Canucks fans now. It has to be.
Why are you assuming we are looking for a stop-gap player to fill a hole? We have a huge hole in our top 6 forwards on the right side. If we can trade Luongo for a good top 6 forward why wouldn't we? Especially since scoring has been our achillies heel in the past two playoffs, and is the reason we didn't win the Cup in 2011. Why is it a lose-lose? You aren't making much sense.

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12-10-2012, 10:53 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Blacker is good defensively, decent size, right side, good skater. Quality prospect and good fit. Colborne center with size, fits mould Gillis wants team to get bigger. Good buy low project. Many fans from both sides have agreed to this deal.
Colborne plays on a top 5 AHL offense, he has 1 goal.

The only reason, you're asking for Blacker is because he's RH IMO.

Low upside player.
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Blacker is a B prospect. Colborne is a B prospect who's looking more and more like a C prospect.

I don't care if many fans from both sides have agreed to the deal. It seems like some Canucks fans have resorted to just dumping Luongo. I highly doubt Gillis will.
More like both are 'C' prospects.

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12-10-2012, 10:56 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Wrong. Our biggest hole is our 2nd line RW.
Wrong. Our biggest hole is 3rd line center. You see tweener wingers in the top 6 of cup winners regularly. You rarely see players like Schroeder in the #3C role on cup winners.

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12-10-2012, 11:00 PM
  #732
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Wrong. Our biggest hole is 3rd line center. You see tweener wingers in the top 6 of cup winners regularly. You rarely see players like Schroeder in the #3C role on cup winners.
Wrong. This is a team that has scored 16 goals in its past 10 playoff games. Our problem is scoring, and our top 6 forwards aren't good enough at doing that. A 3rd line center isn't going to add an extra 10-15 goals over the same 10 game span, but a solid top 6 forward just might.

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12-10-2012, 11:07 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Wrong. This is a team that has scored 16 goals in its past 10 playoff games. Our problem is scoring, and our top 6 forwards aren't good enough at doing that. A 3rd line center isn't going to add an extra 10-15 goals over the same 10 game span, but a solid top 6 forward just might.
I'd suggest we need a top 6 centre (like Kesler) or a top 6 player capable of playing centre (like Sharp).

I doubt we get either for Luongo so I think any package for him needs to include a 1st + 2nd so that we have trading chips at the deadline.

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12-10-2012, 11:15 PM
  #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VasDimops View Post
This was dated late April, whereas subsequent quotes - like the one I provided - were later on. I suspect that was only a rumor or Luongo simply recanted because both he and Gillis have stated they have no qualms keeping the status quo.

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90% may have been high, but I stand by my statement that Kulemin could fit in on 'most' teams first line. He is a great complimentary player with whoever he lines up with.
I still disagree with that assessment of Kulemin. Most contenders like New York, Vancouver, Pittsburgh and etc he would not crack their first line. Washington is likely due to possible chemistry with Ovie. That said, he is certainly a quality complimentary player, having a rather rounded game in lieu of excelling in any particularly area. Still do not seem him on the first line though.

Quote:
I never said my claim has more credibility (check your spelling). It is my opinion. I also said I wouldn't accept that deal if I was a Vancouver fan. It's a tricky situation with the contract and all.
Fair enough, just seemed odd to offer it knowing even you would deny but if that is your high point, well will look elsewhere.

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You are just repeating what I said?
I was already replying before seeing your post. So, yes.

Quote:
Sorry for posting. But then again, aren't you doing the same thing?

-----

I don't understand why everyone is getting so hostile. I respect your opinion and your posts. It's nice to know how certain fan bases value their players. Nothing to get worked up about.

Obviously, we disagree on certain issues. What we both agree on, is Luongo is an elite goalie. One of the top goalies in the league. Im pretty certain you can agree with me that his contract issues, and NTC devalue him at least a little bit? I also think his public statements that he asked for a trade devalues him even more, but you may not think that. And again, I respect that.

It's a very interesting situation.

Serious question: If this trade eventually gets done, do you think both fan bases will be happy?
Admittedly, Nuck fans have a tendency to be somewhat on edge. A good many of us having been posting since early summer in regards to Luongo and a great deal of those consisted of defending either Luongo, his contract, various players on our roster or whatever else. Naturally, it has soured some responses and while I will not speak for anyone in the form of a consensus. We do sometimes presume lowball offers are to spark the eventual "Luongo sucks!" arguments that were far too common. Hell, go back a few pages and we have a slew of posts claiming he isn't top ten.

I do not take offense to anyone saying they would not pay our demands or even arguing us down. We certainly cannot force anyone to take him but when we're told "this is what the Nucks will do and this is why" It gets irritating. Think about it like this. It can't be fun to hear how "Burke is going to be fired if he doesn't do x." I acknowledge even Nuck fans throw that around too easily however, it fits the same overall stance of another fan telling you what your team will do.

In fairness though, citing some examples as crazy and saying "deal with it" do not exactly encourage civil discussion.
---

Truth in the matter, if I had my way. We would be trading Schneider and Lu retires as a Nuck.

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12-10-2012, 11:17 PM
  #735
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im just wondering what you think the value is.

Im not an expert on Bozak, but 47 points as a center playing with an scoring winger isnt very good, unless the center is elite defensively. Unless Gillis see's something in Bozak (and he is looking for size and speed), I cant imagine the appeal. Our team manages icetime far differently, with Henrik and Kesler above him on the depth chart.

Kadri. Might make the nhl and get some points. Also might not. Canucks have ridiculous fitness demands, so regardless of skill, that is a concern in this case.

Colborne/Blacker. I know nothing about them, but do these project to be players that would crack a top team anytime soon?


So regardless of how good you think this package is, or could be, can you see how its just not appealing from the Canuck organizations perspective.

And before you say 'but Luongos contract is an albatross', thats not how the canucks view it, and he will only be moved for SOMETHING that fits exactly what the organization is looking for. And this isnt just my opinion, this is how Gillis works. He's explained it and stuck to it from his first day on the job.
Thats great news for Nucks fans. The suitors for Lou will be long, not to mention the willingness to take on a 9 year cap hit of 5.3. Good luck with that, or alternatively, would like to see the Nucks reap what they sew, and honor the 9 year contract with Lou.

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Old
12-10-2012, 11:19 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Why are you assuming we are looking for a stop-gap player to fill a hole? We have a huge hole in our top 6 forwards on the right side. If we can trade Luongo for a good top 6 forward why wouldn't we? Especially since scoring has been our achillies heel in the past two playoffs, and is the reason we didn't win the Cup in 2011. Why is it a lose-lose? You aren't making much sense.
I'm not making these assumptions, I'm asking a question because its what I can only infer from the reasoning coming back. i asked why the Canucks need to trade away 'elite' goaltending.

The answer to that was to 'fill holes'. So I asked why the Canucks need stop gap players, also making a comment that it doesn't make sense to trade away supposed 'elite' players for hole fillers or whatever you want to call them. It just doesn't make much sense to me why Canucks fans call him elite, but want him gone. Two good goalies have got to be better than one I would think. What happens if the Canucks trade Luongo and Schneider gets hurt? Becuase if you're trading with the Leafs that means you've got someone like Owuya or Rynnas or something. Thats not going to be fun.

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12-10-2012, 11:19 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
In fairness though, citing some examples as crazy and saying "deal with it" do not exactly encourage civil discussion.
Great post. Thanks for the reply.

And your 100% right in what you quoted above. Apologies.

PS: Luongo sucks!

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12-10-2012, 11:19 PM
  #738
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Kulemin a 1st liner?

Guess everyone missed my post where I showed that he is a marginal 2nd liner on a lottery team.

6th and 7th in the last two years respectively in EV strength ice time for forwards on a team that finished 25th and 21st in a 30 team league.

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Old
12-10-2012, 11:22 PM
  #739
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
I'd suggest we need a top 6 centre (like Kesler) or a top 6 player capable of playing centre (like Sharp).

I doubt we get either for Luongo so I think any package for him needs to include a 1st + 2nd so that we have trading chips at the deadline.
This is what intrigues me about moving Schneider. We may be able to target Gardiner and subsequently flip either him or Edler for that scoring need.

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12-10-2012, 11:23 PM
  #740
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Originally Posted by VasDimops View Post
Great post. Thanks for the reply.

And your 100% right in what you quoted above. Apologies.

PS: Luongo sucks!
Very convincing

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Old
12-10-2012, 11:24 PM
  #741
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Wrong. This is a team that has scored 16 goals in its past 10 playoff games. Our problem is scoring, and our top 6 forwards aren't good enough at doing that. A 3rd line center isn't going to add an extra 10-15 goals over the same 10 game span, but a solid top 6 forward just might.
Versteeg from Florida. He scored clutch goals that killed us.

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12-10-2012, 11:24 PM
  #742
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Wrong. This is a team that has scored 16 goals in its past 10 playoff games. Our problem is scoring, and our top 6 forwards aren't good enough at doing that. A 3rd line center isn't going to add an extra 10-15 goals over the same 10 game span, but a solid top 6 forward just might.
Okay. Agree to disagree then.

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Old
12-10-2012, 11:25 PM
  #743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakeTheIronSing View Post
I'm not making these assumptions, I'm asking a question because its what I can only infer from the reasoning coming back. i asked why the Canucks need to trade away 'elite' goaltending.

The answer to that was to 'fill holes'. So I asked why the Canucks need stop gap players, also making a comment that it doesn't make sense to trade away supposed 'elite' players for hole fillers or whatever you want to call them. It just doesn't make much sense to me why Canucks fans call him elite, but want him gone. Two good goalies have got to be better than one I would think. What happens if the Canucks trade Luongo and Schneider gets hurt? Becuase if you're trading with the Leafs that means you've got someone like Owuya or Rynnas or something. Thats not going to be fun.
Because filling holes doesn't necessarily mean a stop gap player, I don't know why you would think that. Trading an elite goalie when we have two is so we can address our needs around our lineup. Scoring in the playoffs has been a huge problem for us, so if we can address that then it makes complete sense. But trading Luongo for crap like people have proposed doesn't make sense at all. And if that's all that people will offer for Luongo, then Gillis won't trade him.

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12-10-2012, 11:26 PM
  #744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skywarp75 View Post
Versteeg from Florida. He scored clutch goals that killed us.
Him alone for Luongo is bad value, but I would be interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Okay. Agree to disagree then.
Fair enough, although do we really need to go through another playoffs with disgustingly bad offense for you to understand that scoring is our problem, not our 3rd line?

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12-10-2012, 11:34 PM
  #745
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Fair enough, although do we really need to go through another playoffs with disgustingly bad offense for you to understand that scoring is our problem, not our 3rd line?
I would contend that our biggest issue with playoff scoring stems from AV tightening up the system so much that our offense can't flow, not the personnel on the team. However I don't think the team can survive the losses of Hodgson, Pahlsson and Malhotra's vision without it killing us in the playoffs. I would be much happier seeing Higgins, Raymond or Kassian on the second line than I would be seeing Schroeder at center come April.

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12-10-2012, 11:37 PM
  #746
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
I would contend that our biggest issue with playoff scoring stems from AV tightening up the system so much that our offense can't flow, not the personnel on the team. However I don't think the team can survive the losses of Hodgson, Pahlsson and Malhotra's vision without it killing us in the playoffs. I would be much happier seeing Higgins, Raymond or Kassian on the second line than I would be seeing Schroeder at center come April.
Right, because that team did so well in last years playoffs

Kassian hasn't even looked good in the AHL this year, and you want to put him in the top 6. Ouch.

If all we get is a 3rd line C for Luongo, and ignore our huge hole in the top 6, then Gillis has not done his job.

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12-10-2012, 11:41 PM
  #747
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Right, because that team did so well in last years playoffs

Kassian hasn't even looked good in the AHL this year, and you want to put him in the top 6. Ouch.

If all we get is a 3rd line C for Luongo, and ignore our huge hole in the top 6, then Gillis has not done his job.
If we were able to get a high end 3C with a good prospect and a 1st, I would pull the trigger on that(i.e like a Bolland-type player).

We can always go after someone at the deadline if not one of Raymond/Kassian/whoever isn't able to step up to a top-6 role.

But Toronto has no one that fits the bill, Bozak is much better off in Toronto rather than being forced into a third line checking role.

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12-10-2012, 11:45 PM
  #748
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Right, because that team did so well in last years playoffs

Kassian hasn't even looked good in the AHL this year, and you want to put him in the top 6. Ouch.

If all we get is a 3rd line C for Luongo, and ignore our huge hole in the top 6, then Gillis has not done his job.
When did I say they did well?

Also, three hours ago you posted a proposal on our board advocating trading for Grabovski as the main piece and placing him on the third line, leaving Higgins-Kesler-Booth as our second line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Well I figured it would be Higgins or Raymond as the 3LW, but with Raymond on that line we're a bit smallish/soft. Perhaps if we did something like this:

Luongo, Raymond for Grabovski, Kulemin, 1st round pick

we could ice a roster of:

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Kesler-Higgins
Kulemin-Grabovski-Hansen
Malhotra-Lapierre-Weise

Still not an ideal 2nd line, but I think that 3rd line is better than what we've iced in the past.
What's changed for you since then?

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12-10-2012, 11:49 PM
  #749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
When did I say they did well?

Also, three hours ago you posted a proposal on our board advocating trading for Grabovski as the main piece and placing him on the third line, leaving Higgins-Kesler-Booth as our second line.



What's changed for you since then?
Grabovski isn't a typical 3rd line player (he's more of a top 6 player). In my roster I have him on the 3rd line though to beef up scoring on that line. The problem I have is when people start suggesting going after Bozak + crap as our solution.

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12-10-2012, 11:59 PM
  #750
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Thats great news for Nucks fans. The suitors for Lou will be long, not to mention the willingness to take on a 9 year cap hit of 5.3. Good luck with that, or alternatively, would like to see the Nucks reap what they sew, and honor the 9 year contract with Lou.
And dont forget all that crazy insurance money!

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