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Is Grabovski a top-six centre on a contender?

View Poll Results: Is Grabovski a first or second line centre on a contender?
Yes 164 56.94%
No 77 26.74%
Not if they want to win 47 16.32%
Voters: 288. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-10-2012, 11:50 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Only because they prefer to use Sharp and Kane at wing, and want to use Bolland in the 3C role.

Last year was odd for the Caps as Backstrom was injured for half of the season. Grabo probably outplayed Johansson but I wouldn't put him above Laich, who normally plays the wing despite being a natural center. So that's arguable as to where Grabo goes, depending on how you handle Laich.
Such a terrible, terrible argument.

It is not a matter of "can Grabovski easily de-throne every guy who can possibly play center on a contender". It is a matter of looking at if Grabovski can find a place as one of the top-6 forwards on a contender. In other words, if a team had their 1st-line and the wingers on their 2nd line at contender status, could Grabovski be that #2 center and have the team compete.

Sharp - Toews - Kane
- Grabovski - Hossa

is better than

- Toews - Kane
- Sharp - Hossa

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Old
12-10-2012, 11:52 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Which is a statistic that involves 19+ players, and not just Grabovski or his line.
The logic is every line on the leafs is to blame for their abysmal GA record, but Grabovski's line is a great shut down line is silly, a shut down line is usually the focal point of a team's defensive strength so it bares a great responsibility to the overall defensive record of a team. You want to give credit for Grabovski as a defensive genius but when confronted with the cold hard stats of a team that finished 29th, 30th, 24th, and 29th in GA, you say it is everyone else's fault but his. That's bad logic.


Last edited by Interactif: 12-10-2012 at 11:58 PM.
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12-10-2012, 11:52 PM
  #103
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Ya except CHicagos time has passed and is not a contender by any stretch.

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12-10-2012, 11:54 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
The logic is every line on the leafs is to blame for their abysmal GA record, but Grabovski's line is a great shut down line, a shut down line is usually the focal point of a team's defensive strength is laughable. You want to give credit for Grabovski as a defensive genuis but when confronted with the cold hard stats of a team that finished 29th, 30th, 24th, and 29th in GA, you say it is everyone else's fault but his. How convenient.
Just because you have a good shutdown line, doesn't automatically mean you have a low GA.

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12-10-2012, 11:55 PM
  #105
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I suspect about half the votes for are from Leafs fans.

So amongst unbiased fans of other teams, Grabovski is NOT a player a team who wants a Cup would have in their top six like the Leafs are hoping and paying him to do.
41% are in the No catagory.

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12-10-2012, 11:56 PM
  #106
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Ya except CHicagos time has passed and is not a contender by any stretch.
They won the cup 2 years ago, with a core that they still have. The years since then, they have finished with 97 points and 101 points.

They are most definitely a contender.

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12-10-2012, 11:59 PM
  #107
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I dont think so, but I guess its borderline, he could be on nashville or chicago but not on the phillys, pens, bruins, kings...etc

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12-11-2012, 12:04 AM
  #108
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If I were Chicago fans be careful what you wish for, Grabovski has never played in 1 NHL playoff game, he is a very inconsistent player that often disspears when the games become more important. His AHL and Russian playoff stats leave a lot to be desired. He may be a flop if he ever plays in a pressure packed game. It is one thing to score 50-55 points without concentrating on defence on a 25th place team, it is a whole entirely step up to do it in the playoffs when checking is super tight.

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12-11-2012, 12:05 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Just because you have a good shutdown line, doesn't automatically mean you have a low GA.
I don't think there has ever been an effective shutdown line on a 29th GA team.

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12-11-2012, 12:12 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Which is a statistic that involves 19+ players, and not just Grabovski or his line.
So the claim is that Grabovski is good defensively and the evidence is that he played on the Leafs' shut down line. In front of solid defensive defensemen like Dion Phaneuf and Brett Lebda and a solid goaltender like James Reimer.

And when the Leafs' GA is called into question, you state that it's not the fault of the shutdown player/line because the team sucks?

Hmm.

Matt Stajan's offensive numbers disappeared are because he was moved from Calgary's first line to the checking line 27 games into 2010-11; he had 18 points at the time, and would score 13 more over another 49 games that season as the checking center. That rate continued with 18 points in 61 games last year. This happened because he was the only defensively capable/willing center and the only faceoff winner on the team - Jarome Iginla and Craig Conroy are the only other players on the team since Stajan moved to Calgary to take more than 50 faceoffs total and average 50% or better. Conroy's last game was Stajan's last on the top line before moving to Conroy's spot.

Stajan is better defensively. Much like teammate Jay Bouwmeester, he has taken flak for his contract, but he has succeeded as the lynchpin in a defensive role on a team that has played a defensive style for years. With Mikael Backlund looking to be a viable checking center option, Hartley may choose to move Stajan back up to the top line instead of moving Cammalleri into the middle.

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12-11-2012, 12:17 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
So the claim is that Grabovski is good defensively and the evidence is that he played on the Leafs' shut down line. In front of solid defensive defensemen like Dion Phaneuf and Brett Lebda and a solid goaltender like James Reimer.

And when the Leafs' GA is called into question, you state that it's not the fault of the shutdown player/line because the team sucks?

Hmm.
No, that is not the reason that Grabovski is good defensively. That is the result of him being good defensively.

Brett Lebda was anything but solid, and Reimer was anything but solid last year as well, because he was injured. Not sure what you're getting at.

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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Stajan is better defensively.
And I'm not sure what Stajan has to do with anything anyway.


Last edited by The Head Crusher: 12-11-2012 at 01:58 AM.
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12-11-2012, 01:58 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Of course Leafs fans stuff the ballot box in my poll despite asking for non-Leafs fans to vote.
Really? I counted about 67(lol) non-leafs fans that voted for. There were also 2 votes against by Leafs fans.

Even when subtracting all Leafs fans votes 'Yes' is still in the majority.

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12-11-2012, 02:11 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Baseless garbage.
Ah, the eva unit zero school of debate, where every argument is 'nope' and you never have to bother trying to justify any of your reasoning. I'd point out that Grabovski fairs better defensively than most of the mentioned centers and is roughly on par offensively or better than alternatives at #2 center, but I know you and I know that you'll just say my stats are wrong and you are right. I sure love these shouting contests!

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12-11-2012, 02:34 AM
  #114
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2nd line- Sure
1st line- LOL

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12-11-2012, 03:24 AM
  #115
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For a Stanley Cup Champion? Probably not.

For a like 4-8 range team, yes.

In summary it's close.

I won't vote in order to not to skew the precious results though.

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12-11-2012, 04:23 AM
  #116
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For a Stanley Cup Champion? Probably not.

For a like 4-8 range team, yes.

In summary it's close.

I won't vote in order to not to skew the precious results though.
Thanks.

You're the only Leafs fan who listened to my request and didn't stuff the ballot box.

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12-11-2012, 04:39 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I suspect about half the votes for are from Leafs fans.

So amongst unbiased fans of other teams, Grabovski is NOT a player a team who wants a Cup would have in their top six like the Leafs are hoping and paying him to do.
Let's not act as if Grabovski would be a complete liability centering a 2nd line, ok ? A team can definitely win a cup with Grabovski on the 2nd line. He's reliable, well rounded and pushes the game in the right direction.

The answer is yes.

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12-11-2012, 04:56 AM
  #118
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And to the people claiming he was surrounded by a great defensive support:


Grabovski with Kulemin: Corsi For +0.525%
Grabovski w/out Kulemin: Corsi For +0.558%
Kulemin w/out Grabovski: Corsi for -0.470%

Grabovski with Phaneuf: Corsi For +0.525%
Grabovski w/out Phaneuf: Corsi For +0.546%
Phaneuf w/out Grabovski: Corsi For -0.486%

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12-11-2012, 05:07 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Yashintangibles View Post
Let's not act as if Grabovski would be a complete liability centering a 2nd line, ok ? A team can definitely win a cup with Grabovski on the 2nd line. He's reliable, well rounded and pushes the game in the right direction.

The answer is yes.
I'm looking at the past Cup winners' center depth and grabo doesnt compare.

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12-11-2012, 05:25 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I'm looking at the past Cup winners' center depth and grabo doesnt compare.
If you ask me, he would perfectly fit with centering a checking line on a contender. And honestly, It's still a very important task.

But the main point should be clear to me: A contender wouldn't be eliminated just because Grabovski is their 2nd line center. Grabovski's game too rounded with decent IQ to be such a liability.

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12-11-2012, 05:35 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Yashintangibles View Post
If you ask me, he would perfectly fit with centering a checking line on a contender. And honestly, It's still a very important task.

But the main point should be clear to me: A contender wouldn't be eliminated just because Grabovski is their 2nd line center. Grabovski's game too rounded with decent IQ to be such a liability.
Right and that's what I said on the Leafs board and I was savagely attacked by many Leafs fans. I assume you mean a third line role btw..... so in other words, not a top six on a contender. Maybe on a playoff team.

Playoff teams should aspire to be a contender so that would mean that teams should be actively looking to replace Grabo with someone better if they hope to contend for a Cup. That's what I advocate. The Leafs should be looking for not only a number 1 center but also a number 2 and a goalie.

Im not sure if they can get all three tho.

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12-11-2012, 06:50 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Right and that's what I said on the Leafs board and I was savagely attacked by many Leafs fans. I assume you mean a third line role btw..... so in other words, not a top six on a contender. Maybe on a playoff team.

Playoff teams should aspire to be a contender so that would mean that teams should be actively looking to replace Grabo with someone better if they hope to contend for a Cup. That's what I advocate. The Leafs should be looking for not only a number 1 center but also a number 2 and a goalie.

Im not sure if they can get all three tho.
Well it's easy, there's always room for improvement, everywhere, on any team. If Malkin and Crosby were playing for L.A. Kopitar would instantly center a terrific 3rd line. But like Kopitar on LA's 1st line, the Leafs getting a center to replace Grabovski,on the 2nd line, is the least of their concern.

Grabovski never played for a contender yet and he can't be blamed for this, it's a team-sport. But basicaly he wouldn't be a weak 2nd line center on a contender because he is already a legit 2nd line center in the league. This is all we need to know, everything else is pure speculation.

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12-11-2012, 08:26 AM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yashintangibles View Post
And to the people claiming he was surrounded by a great defensive support:


Grabovski with Kulemin: Corsi For +0.525%
Grabovski w/out Kulemin: Corsi For +0.558%
Kulemin w/out Grabovski: Corsi for -0.470%

Grabovski with Phaneuf: Corsi For +0.525%
Grabovski w/out Phaneuf: Corsi For +0.546%
Phaneuf w/out Grabovski: Corsi For -0.486%
Quoting Corsi stats is hardly proof of anything. It's a highly debatable often unreliable stat. Don't even want to bother posting how many good, great players did not fare well in corsi.

What we do know, is Nik Kulemin is an excellent defensive winger, we do know prior to his injury last year Grabovoski was +7, once Kulemin got hurt, Grabovoski went the rest of the season -7. As a person that saw all Leafs games last season, I can assure you he was much less effective when Kulemin went down.

Again to quote one of the posters here, if he was the shutdown Center of the Leafs last year, what does it say that the Leafs were the second worst defensive team in the NHL last year. I don't know how a team can have an effective shut down line with the 29th worst GA in the league.

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12-11-2012, 08:54 AM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I'm looking at the past Cup winners' center depth and grabo doesnt compare.
Boston fans came in saying there is little difference between him and Krejci, just disproved your argument.

Also, the year Philly made it to the finals, Grabovski (now) would have been as productive as Briere and more so than Giroux during the regular season. There is two examples where a similar calibre player has been in the same position. Granted Briere and krejci went on to have incredible playoffs, but sorely based on regular season stats, Grabo would be right there with them.

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12-11-2012, 08:59 AM
  #125
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Boston fans came in saying there is little difference between him and Krejci, just disproved your argument.

Also, the year Philly made it to the finals, Grabovski (now) would have been as productive as Briere and more so than Giroux during the regular season. There is two examples where a similar calibre player has been in the same position. Granted Briere and krejci went on to have incredible playoffs, but sorely based on regular season stats, Grabo would be right there with them.
There was a recent poll here between Krejci and Grabovski, it wasn't close.

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