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Leafs ranked 20th by Hockey's Future.

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Old
12-11-2012, 02:10 AM
  #301
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post


IN one hand you have an elite 24yr old scorer.

IN the other hand you have sweet **** all.

Which hand is better?
We have him right now......while the Leafs are equivalent to a dog's stool.....for now.....and that's all we know..

Anything else is uncertain..

Boston could win 10 cups in 10 years with Seguin and Hamilton leading the way while Kessel retires from hockey to be a mumba dancer. A remote possibility but still a possibility.

You seem to think you KNOW how this trade is going to play out when it is all said and done but I will bet you can't even tell me what front page will be on Friday's paper let alone looking YEARS into the future!

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12-11-2012, 02:12 AM
  #302
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I don't get it. Bruins' success =/= Kessel trade.
I'm trying to explain something to this confused individual that he cant predict the future thus he cant compare a trade that has ongoing results to one that the history books have closed and accounted for.

I mean even the Rask trade isn't conclusive yet. We can speculate that he will be a good starter but we don't conclusively know that he will turn in a better career than "37 wins in a season" Raycroft..

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12-11-2012, 02:13 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Boston could win 10 cups in 10 years with Seguin and Hamilton leading the way while Kessel retires from hockey to be a mumba dancer. A remote possibility but still a possibility.

Counter point: you could become Burke's biggest fanboy. Could happen.


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12-11-2012, 02:14 AM
  #304
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Counter point: you could become Burke's biggest fanboy. Could happen.

Just win and I will.

Promise.

No excuses, no more next years. Just win.

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12-11-2012, 02:15 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
We have him right now......while the Leafs are equivalent to a dog's stool.....for now.....and that's all we know..

Anything else is uncertain..

Boston could win 10 cups in 10 years with Seguin and Hamilton leading the way while Kessel retires from hockey to be a mumba dancer. A remote possibility but still a possibility.

You seem to think you KNOW how this trade is going to play out when it is all said and done but I will bet you can't even tell me what front page will be on Friday's paper let alone looking YEARS into the future!
IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE BRUINS DO!

The simple fact we have Kessel who is a young elite talent means that the three trades I mentioned will always be worse than the Kessel deal.

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12-11-2012, 02:16 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE BRUINS DO!

The simple fact we have Kessel who is a young elite talent means that the three trades I mentioned will always be worse than the Kessel deal.
No it doesn't.

Admit you can't see into the future please.

That will basically refute this opinion.

The Kessel trade is on-going. Those other trades are conclusive.

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12-11-2012, 02:19 AM
  #307
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Examine this.

Say Kessel leaves for Minnesota when he is a UFA after the Leafs finish well outside the playoffs during 2013-2014.

Seems to me Andrew Raycroft's 37 win season where we were very close to the playoffs would be a better result than anything Kessel was able to accomplish here (2nd last, 9th last, 5th last, ?)?

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12-11-2012, 02:21 AM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I'm trying to explain something to this confused individual that he cant predict the future thus he cant compare a trade that has ongoing results to one that the history books have closed and accounted for.

I mean even the Rask trade isn't conclusive yet. We can speculate that he will be a good starter but we don't conclusively know that he will turn in a better career than "37 wins in a season" Raycroft..
I am not predicting anything.

The fact we have not only a servicable NHL player but an elite gamebreaker, mean it is better.

ANd don't worry about what Kessel will do when his contract expires becaue even if he bolts, his 5 years of service is still a hell of a lot more than we got from the other deals.

The 3x 30g season and the 1 PPG season is more than we got from the other deals. KEssel could retire tomorrow an that deal would still not be the worst in Leafs history.

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12-11-2012, 02:24 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
No it doesn't.

Admit you can't see into the future please.

That will basically refute this opinion.

The Kessel trade is on-going. Those other trades are conclusive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Examine this.

Say Kessel leaves for Minnesota when he is a UFA after the Leafs finish well outside the playoffs during 2013-2014.

Seems to me Andrew Raycroft's 37 win season where we were very close to the playoffs would be a better result than anything Kessel was able to accomplish here (2nd last, 9th last, 5th last, ?)?
And Raycroft lasted how many years?

As I mentioned I don't need to see into the future. Kessel's 3 30g seasons and his PPG season this past year are more return than we got from any of those trades.

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12-11-2012, 02:28 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
I am not predicting anything.

Yes you are. You are trying to predict how the finale of the trade will compare to the other deals. What you don't understand is that you can't predict the future and the fate of any of the Leafs, the Bruins, Kessel, Seguin, and Hamilton. What we do know is that since adding Kessel the Leafs have been **** and the Bruins won the Stanley CUp and added a metric ton of prospects one of which won the Cup too

The fact we have not only a servicable NHL player but an elite gamebreaker, mean it is better.

That's your opinion of what Kessel "is". But we don't know what kind of success the Leafs are going to have in the future with Kessel if any. So far they have had ZERO (2nd last, 9th last, 5th last). Your opinion of him as a player so far doesn't matter because we don't know what the future holds.

ANd don't worry about what Kessel will do when his contract expires becaue even if he bolts, his 5 years of service is still a hell of a lot more than we got from the other deals.

Again, Raycroft took us closer to the playoffs than any Kessel-led team did. And we only gave up one amazing prospect. Toskala, too, took us closer to the playoffs and we only gave up a middle first. I wasn't watching the Leafs back in the Kurvers days because I wasn't even in this country or even born probably. How many points he scored doesn't matter at all because the Leafs still were ****.

The 3x 30g season and the 1 PPG season is more than we got from the other deals. KEssel could retire tomorrow an that deal would still not be the worst in Leafs history.

Again, points don't mean anything. I could just as easily say he was atrocious defensively and cost us games with his awful plus minus. But I dont even need to look at that because I know that the Leafs are **** whether hes on the team or not. I can see for myself as clear as day. WIth him......****.....without him......****.....

Raycroft and Toskala brought us more success because we were far closer to the playoffs and also didn't cost as much in terms of amazing prospects. We gave up a metric ton to Boston.


Try and comprehend the bolded

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12-11-2012, 02:35 AM
  #311
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charlo...

if you are so sure what the ramifications of the kessel trade will be for both teams, years in advance, i was wondering if you could tell me the lottery numbers for next months 649.

I need your crystal ball premonition.

I mean if u can predict years ahead of time, im sure a month is a piece of cake?

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12-11-2012, 02:57 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
And Raycroft lasted how many years?

As I mentioned I don't need to see into the future. Kessel's 3 30g seasons and his PPG season this past year are more return than we got from any of those trades.
You do realize that a trade is more than just the return... right?

To assess if a trade is good or not, you compare the return to what was given up. I mean... it's just common sense.

The fact that Kessel is better than Raycroft means nothing at all if Rask falls apart and Seguin/Hamilton both become all star elite players.

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12-11-2012, 03:01 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
You do realize that a trade is more than just the return... right?

To assess if a trade is good or not, you compare the return to what was given up. I mean... it's just common sense.

The fact that Kessel is better than Raycroft means nothing at all if Rask falls apart and Seguin/Hamilton both become all star elite players.
We gave up Rask for Nothing.

And just to be a *****, I am going to point out that if Sequin and Hamiton have successful carreers then Rask is very likely to have one too.

The bottom line is something is better than nothing.

In Kessel we have a very good something. IN the other trades we have nothing.

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12-11-2012, 03:07 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
We gave up Rask for Nothing.

And just to be a *****, I am going to point out that if Sequin and Hamiton have successful carreers then Rask is very likely to have one too.

The bottom line is something is better than nothing.

In Kessel we have a very good something. IN the other trades we have nothing.
You don't KNOW what Kessel is going to do for this team in the future!!!!!!!!

This is what you don't understand. We have a very good something right now......on one of the very worst teams in the league. You dont know if Kessel will lead the Leafs higher than Raycroft or Tosklala because you can't predict the future. All we know is that since Kessel has been here the Leafs have been worse than any of the Raycroft years or the Toskala years. And we also paid less than for Kessel who cost a METRIC FREAKING TON OF PROSPECTS.....not even close to rask or lars eller (who cares about him).

Looking back on this era of leafs....people aren't going to care how many points Kessel scored....theyre gonna look right at the win column and the absence of playoffs every. single. ****ing. year!!!!!!!!!!

If Kessel walks, this has potential to be the worst transaction ever made in modern NHL history and as you and I both know THAT IS A DISTINCT AND REAL POSSIBILITY! But see unlike urself I dont go around blabbing like this is an absolute certainty. Unlike u i can actually tell the difference between a possibility and a certainty which is something u should have learned in middle school algebra.

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12-11-2012, 03:11 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
You don't KNOW what Kessel is going to do for this team in the future!!!!!!!!

This is what you don't understand. We have a very good something right now......on one of the very worst teams in the league. You dont know if Kessel will lead the Leafs higher than Raycroft or Tosklala because you can't predict the future. All we know is that since Kessel has been here the Leafs have been worse than any of the Raycroft years or the Toskala years. And we also paid less than for Kessel who cost a METRIC FREAKING TON OF PROSPECTS.....not even close to rask or lars eller (who cares about him).

Looking back on this era of leafs....people aren't going to care how many points Kessel scored....theyre gonna look right at the win column and the absence of playoffs every. single. ****ing. year!!!!!!!!!!

If Kessel walks, this has potential to be the first transaction ever made in modern NHL history and as you and I both know THAT IS A DISTINCT AND REAL POSSIBILITY!
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT KESSEL DOES IN THE FUTURE!!!!.

He has already given the LEafs better return for what they gave up than the other trades.

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12-11-2012, 03:11 AM
  #316
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Look, Detroit is ranked 10th on the strength of two 23yr olds. Toronto has an elite 18yr old and a 22yr old who is as good as the Wings #2 prospect but Toronto is ranked 20th.

They even admitted Detroit has no goaltending prospects, but Toronto has 3 or 4 depending on how you want to count. BUt Detroit is ranked 10 spots ahead of Toronto


That obvious discrepancy is my issue.
It's pretty clear what happened here.
You were hoping that the prospect rankings would finally paint a brighter future for the leafs.
When that didn't happen (because the leafs prospects aren't very good), you decided in a fit of desperation to outline some trivial flaw in their rankings so that you could conveniently discount the rest of their entire assessment.
All because they simply didn't agree with you.

I'm sure you'll say different... but I'm betting you've barely seen ANY of Detroits prospects play in any capacity. Yet you're still somehow so stubbornly sure that they're wrong about Detroit that you'll discount every other word they say.

Sorry, but it's just sort of a pathetic way to behave.

In regards to goaltending, the rankings claimed it was a weakness for both Detroit and Toronto. A weakness for both.

I just looked through the HF team rankings, and they list Detroit goaltenders as having a 7.5, 7, and 6 rating. The leafs have three ranked 7, and one rated 6.5.
So I don't really know what you're going on and on about.

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12-11-2012, 03:13 AM
  #317
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT KESSEL DOES IN THE FUTURE!!!!.

He has already given the LEafs better return for what they gave up than the other trades.
YES IT DOES!!!!! THAT'S HOW WE TELL HOW GOOD OR BAD A TRADE IS!!!!!!!!

He hasn't done ANYTHING for the Leafs.

Since he's been here the Leafs haven't made the playoffs ONCE, he's been a minus player, and the Leafs have finished 2nd last, 9th last, and most recently 5th last.

NOTHING! HE HAS DONE NOTHING FOR THE LEAFS!

WITH HIM THEY ARE ****! WITHOUT HIM THEY ARE STILL ****! HIS IMPACT IS NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!

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12-11-2012, 03:14 AM
  #318
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Hasn't this topic been beaten to death enough?

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12-11-2012, 03:16 AM
  #319
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Andrew Raycroft holds the single season record for wins for a goaltender.

Andrew Raycroft pushed the Leafs closer to the playoffs during his time.

He cost one excellent prospect.


Kessel has yet to hold any records for points.

Kessel has never led the Leafs any higher than 9th last and has also seen 2nd last lows.

He cost two excellent prospects.

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12-11-2012, 03:17 AM
  #320
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
We gave up Rask for Nothing.

And just to be a *****, I am going to point out that if Sequin and Hamiton have successful carreers then Rask is very likely to have one too.

The bottom line is something is better than nothing.

In Kessel we have a very good something. IN the other trades we have nothing.
You're resorting to a dramatic oversimplification of something that is common sense in an attempt to make a faulty argument appear correct.
It's not a mature means of communication.

Assessing a trade is soooo much more than simply saying "we got something back in one trade, but not in the others". That's just a childish way to look at it.

You need to compare what was actually LOST in the trade as well.

I'll agree that it's more likely at this point that the Rask trade will be worse overall for the leafs than the Kessel trade.
But the fact that both Seguin and Hamilton have more overall potential than Rask, and the fact that Kessel is a soft one dimensional player, makes it quite possible that it could turn into the worse of the two trades in the long run.

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12-11-2012, 03:18 AM
  #321
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Hasn't this topic been beaten to death enough?
Apparently not. CHarlo is beaten but not dead yet it seems.

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12-11-2012, 03:25 AM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
It's pretty clear what happened here.
You were hoping that the prospect rankings would finally paint a brighter future for the leafs.
When that didn't happen (because the leafs prospects aren't very good), you decided in a fit of desperation to outline some trivial flaw in their rankings so that you could conveniently discount the rest of their entire assessment.
All because they simply didn't agree with you.

I'm sure you'll say different... but I'm betting you've barely seen ANY of Detroits prospects play in any capacity. Yet you're still somehow so stubbornly sure that they're wrong about Detroit that you'll discount every other word they say.

Sorry, but it's just sort of a pathetic way to behave.

In regards to goaltending, the rankings claimed it was a weakness for both Detroit and Toronto. A weakness for both.

I just looked through the HF team rankings, and they list Detroit goaltenders as having a 7.5, 7, and 6 rating. The leafs have three ranked 7, and one rated 6.5.
So I don't really know what you're going on and on about.
And yet the comentary specifically mentions the lack of goaltending depth for DET. If anything this just proves that teams like Detroit are given preferential prospect values.

I beg you please make an argument why Smith is a better prospect than Rielly.

Please. I will totally admit fault if you can do that.

Hell...

I WILL QUIT DEFENDING BURKE IF YOU CAN MAKE A SOLID ARGUMENT FOR SMITH BEING A BETTER PROSPECT THAN RIELLY.

Because my only issues are that it appears that certain teams get preferential rankings, and most hockey people agree Rielly is an awesome talent but Toronto gets no respect.

That and the criteria is bogus. Teams get rewarded for having prospects that aren't good enough to make the NHL at a young age. Oh wait Kadri is a scrub. LEafs Prospects don't get that. But Nyquist is a fraking all-star in the making. See... makes no sense.

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12-11-2012, 03:31 AM
  #323
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YES IT DOES!!!!! THAT'S HOW WE TELL HOW GOOD OR BAD A TRADE IS!!!!!!!!

He hasn't done ANYTHING for the Leafs.

Since he's been here the Leafs haven't made the playoffs ONCE, he's been a minus player, and the Leafs have finished 2nd last, 9th last, and most recently 5th last.

NOTHING! HE HAS DONE NOTHING FOR THE LEAFS!

WITH HIM THEY ARE ****! WITHOUT HIM THEY ARE STILL ****! HIS IMPACT IS NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!
The fact we have had a player that has scored 3 30 goal seasons and may get us a good return in a trade, mean it is not Toronto's worst deal.


We had one semi-good year from Raycroft, No good years from Toskala and Bell. and Kurvers for Niedermayer? are you kidding me?

Go ahead and make a case as to why the Kessel trade is worse than any of these trades.

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12-11-2012, 03:39 AM
  #324
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
The fact we have had a player that has scored 3 30 goal seasons and may get us a good return in a trade, mean it is not Toronto's worst deal.


We had one semi-good year from Raycroft, No good years from Toskala and Bell. and Kurvers for Niedermayer? are you kidding me?

Go ahead and make a case as to why the Kessel trade is worse than any of these trades.
First things first you cant trade Kessel now because there isnt a CBA and once there is the team has to honor his NMC as per CAPGEEK. Kessel I can almost definitely say will NOT BE TRADED IN THE NEXT TWO YEARS

I am not making a case for Kessel as the worst trade, if you have been paying even the slightest bit of attention to the content of my posts you would have realized that my point is that we CANNOT CONCLUDE ANYTHING ABOUT THE TRADE RIGHT NOW SINCE WE DO NOT HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION.

THE CASE IS STILL ON-GOING!

The trade could get better, it could get worse, or it could be a wash. We don't know.

So far the Leafs have been trash since acquiring Kessel. Literally trash. And we gave up a metric ton of prospects. Now the Leafs have a trash NHL roster and below average prospects as perceived by scouts and publishers.

So far the Bruins have been contenders since ditching Kessel. They have won the Stanley Cup. And they have a metric ton of prospects to show for trading Kessel.

That's all we know. We don't know what's going to happen from here on in.

The Rask trade is still an on-going too. Most Leafs fans fear Rask will be a legitimate NHL starter and a good one too. He could. Or he could not. If he doesn't, however unlikely, all of a sudden we didn't get hosed in the Raycroft trade. And we got close to the playoffs on the back of a goalie who won a RECORD 37 games in exchange for a backup goalie. Big deal. Ill admit thats unlikely to happen but the point is WE CANT ABSOLUTELY CONCLUDE ANYTHING, LET ALONE COMPARE IT TO TRADES THAT ARE CLOSED OR ON-GOING WHEN THIS ONE IS ABSOLUTELY IN ITS INFANCY.

Theres all sorts of variables at play and we wont know for years still once more information is accounted for.



This will be the fifth time Ive explained this to you and it still hasnt sunk in. that or your just pulling my leg and are ignoring the content and just ignorantly falling back on your fallacies.

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12-11-2012, 03:41 AM
  #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
You're resorting to a dramatic oversimplification of something that is common sense in an attempt to make a faulty argument appear correct.
It's not a mature means of communication.

Assessing a trade is soooo much more than simply saying "we got something back in one trade, but not in the others". That's just a childish way to look at it.

You need to compare what was actually LOST in the trade as well.

I'll agree that it's more likely at this point that the Rask trade will be worse overall for the leafs than the Kessel trade.
But the fact that both Seguin and Hamilton have more overall potential than Rask, and the fact that Kessel is a soft one dimensional player, makes it quite possible that it could turn into the worse of the two trades in the long run.
UMM no. Nice try.

Right So losing out on Scott Neidermayer for nothing is worse than losing out on Seguin, Hamilton and KNight and getting a 22yr old PPG winger in return?.

Lkie I said it does not matter what Seguin & co. earn during a carreer, the fact we got Kessel instead of NOTHING, trumps everything.

Keep calling Kessel a one dimensional player. And pay attention because I will be asking you if he is a playmaking one dimensional player or goalscoring one dimensional player.

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