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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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Old
12-10-2012, 11:44 PM
  #576
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
Any time you feel compelled to blame the rest of the world for something, it might be wise to adjust your perspective.
You may wish to dial down your defensiveness.

I don't blame anyone.

It's merely a fact.

I noticed you ignored the entirety of my post where I was agreeing with you.

Selective understanding on your part I guess.

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12-10-2012, 11:47 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
You may wish to dial down your defensiveness.

I don't blame anyone.

It's merely a fact.
A fact which apparently carries no rhetorical value because you admit to neglecting any personal interpretation.

Carry on then, but I'm more interested in what you think facts mean. If I need to be educated I'll ask. I know what the World Cup is.

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12-10-2012, 11:50 PM
  #578
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So, you have a tournament that was largely held on North American soil (except once), took place in the summer months, employed NHL officials, and was won largely by North American (re: except for 1981) teams throughout its entire history.

Do I believe that Europeans put a lot of stock in this tournament? No, and it's pretty obvious why.

Now you've got another tournament that was largely held on European soil (except once), took place during the NHL playoffs, employed European trained officials, and was won largely by European countries throughout its entire history (once you get past the era of black and white television).

I wonder where I could be going with this.


Last edited by NyQuil: 12-10-2012 at 11:55 PM.
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12-10-2012, 11:57 PM
  #579
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So I was right. You're blaming the rest of the world for not devoting their full effort to the World Cup/Canada Cup, and now you're blaming the rest of the world for not making the World Championship enticing enough to Canadians.

If you wish, you can substitute "accusing" for "blaming."

The level of competition should make it enticing, not the location. I live in North America, but I care about the WC.

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12-10-2012, 11:59 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
So I was right. You're blaming the rest of the world for not devoting their full effort to the World Cup/Canada Cup, and now you're blaming the rest of the world for not making the World Championship enticing enough to Canadians.

If you wish, you can substitute "accusing" for "blaming."
Actually, I'm providing an opinion as to why there is a lack of respect for both tournaments on opposite sides of the pond.

For some reason, you have an intense interest in making this personal.

Do you agree that North Americans, by and large, fail to give the World Championships the credit they deserve?

And do you also agree, that Europeans, by and large, fail to acknowledge the World Cup/Canada Cup as an international tournament of note?

The difference is that I understand why. I can hardly blame them.

Accusing? Why would I care about the Canada Cup if I was European? It's a tournament that is set up for North America to win.

And why should I care about the "World" Championships if it's always (except for once) held in Europe, during the work day, also during the playoffs, where I really can't follow it to the extent that I'd like?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairylikebear
The level of competition should make it enticing, not the location. I live in North America, but I care about the WC.
Funny, because the World Cup/Canada Cup was all elite teams, no filler. It was all about competition.

Tough to win on the NHL ice surface playing the NHL-style game, but the Soviets did it in 1981, and they have my utmost respect for it.

It'd be interesting now because the "schools" of hockey certainly aren't as distinct as they were throughout the 70's-early 90's.


Last edited by NyQuil: 12-11-2012 at 12:05 AM.
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12-11-2012, 12:05 AM
  #581
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Why should the hockey world revolve around you?

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12-11-2012, 12:05 AM
  #582
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
Why should the hockey world revolve around you?
It doesn't.

Otherwise there would be no World Championships every year.

Or it would be held at a time when the world's pre-eminent professional league wasn't still playing. Maybe in North America on occasion.

As it is, it's still a very successful event for the IIHF that attracts the attention of thousands in Europe and elsewhere.

So good for the WCs.


Last edited by NyQuil: 12-11-2012 at 12:24 AM.
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12-11-2012, 12:08 AM
  #583
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Olympic seedings are important, as well as medals, country pride, prestige and bragging rights. So whatever Canadian teams played in recent WCs, they didn't step up? They didn't play well under pressure? What happened exactly?

WCs take a lot of commitment (yearly preperations and Eurotours for some countries) and not some patch job of volunteers getting together for a tour of Europe. I think that is really starting to sink in with Hockey Canada and US. Just read some articles around last WC in the press.

It's not an easy tournament to win by any stretch of imagination. Whatever country wins deserve a lot of credit. Yet you dismiss this tournament completely? Ignorant, very ignorant.

What exact "barriers" prevented Canada from putting together a better team for WC in any of the past 5 years?

Just to be clear:
-NHL Playoffs are NOT an excuse or "barriers", as obviously proven by many countries. Usually there are only 2-4 NT players that are occupied for the playoff part of WC. Like who could play last year from LA Kings or NJD? Just a handful of players.

-Caring or not caring is not an excuse. Emotional notes are NOT attached to team standings at the end of the tournament.

Yes, give more credit to Olympics, I agree. But give the credit to other major international tournaments that it deserves too. They take a lot of commitment, hard work and hockey wealth of a country to win. There is no question that this tournament got a whole lot more competative in the last 10 years. Lots of NHL stars now are proud to play for their countries. Canada is just not at the same level right now, and if they don't get on it they are going to become a joke in WCs (if they haven't already).
Canada has never viewed the WHC as a critically important tournament. If that doesn't sit well with you, that's too bad. It is viewed as a European event. Much like Europeans will dismiss World Cup/Canada Cup as a North American one. It doesn't matter that the IIHF is involved.

You are wrong about NHL player availability too. The team is 2/3 announced before the playoffs start. The rest filled in by first round losers. You can't wait until the last minute to announce everyone. Players have just gone through a full 82 game schedule, including intense playoff positioning races and playoff games. Many are playing injured, many are fatigued and the thought of going half way around the world to play in a tournament that most over here don't put stock in isn't the prestige you might think it is.

Lately Canada has been using the WHC as a sort of tryout for younger players and an opportunity to give guys national team experience. Half the squad last year was 25 or under.

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12-11-2012, 12:49 AM
  #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
I do, because the other measures are even worse.

Yeah, it's one tournament, but everyone knows what it means.

The team that steps up for those games, and plays well under pressure, when it counts, deserves the accolades.
You're right the Olympics are probably the tournament, where the nations' desires to win are most aligned, especially when compared to WHC and the World Cup. However, if your argument that a particular country is #1 hinges on the Olympic win alone, then you obviously fail to realize that every team will show a range of performances whatever its average value (i.e. how good they are at the moment), so a win in the finals, semi-finals or quarter-finals doesn't necessarily mean that team is better than the other. Obviously, you have to go with some metric, but if that one thing is all you go on, I don't think you can make that call unless the scores are extremely lopsided.

I agree that other single measures by themselves are worse, though.

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12-11-2012, 12:56 AM
  #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryker
I agree that other single measures by themselves are worse, though.
After disqualifying a number of tournaments for their inclusion as a barometer for elite-level hockey supremacy, all that was left was the Olympics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryker
you obviously fail to realize that every team will show a range of performances whatever its average value (i.e. how good they are at the moment), so a win in the finals, semi-finals or quarter-finals doesn't necessarily mean that team is better than the other.
Delivering on that day is what matters.

That's what sports are all about.

The vast majority of sports are about a performance on a specific day, at a specific time. That's how champions are crowned.

Sure, you can put in head-to-head series in to try and offset that kind of variation, but they don't usually exist for international competitions.

When Spain wins the World Cup, does someone run up to them immediately afterwards and inform them that it was just a single game, and given the range of possible performances, it doesn't really mean anything conclusive?

I think not.

We award the Gold medal for winning. Not for winning by a specific amount, or by winning multiple times against a particular opponent. Win your elimination games and you're the champion. Everyone is aware of the rules.


Last edited by NyQuil: 12-11-2012 at 01:03 AM.
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12-11-2012, 01:21 AM
  #586
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
We award the Gold medal for winning. Not for winning by a specific amount, or by winning multiple times against a particular opponent. Win your elimination games and you're the champion. Everyone is aware of the rules.
Yeah, I agree with that. But I thought we were talking about the #1 spot in world hockey, not the gold medal.

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12-11-2012, 04:27 AM
  #587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
Yeah, I agree with that. But I thought we were talking about the #1 spot in world hockey, not the gold medal.
So assuming WHC's and World Cup results don't count, what other metrics do you suggest to determine the number 1 spot?

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12-11-2012, 04:34 AM
  #588
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
Why should the hockey world revolve around you?
Like it or not, the hockey world does revolve around the NHL to a certain extent. At the end of the day, business interests are a major influence.

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12-11-2012, 06:06 AM
  #589
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Originally Posted by Nash View Post
Canada has never viewed the WHC as a critically important tournament. If that doesn't sit well with you, that's too bad. It is viewed as a European event. Much like Europeans will dismiss World Cup/Canada Cup as a North American one. It doesn't matter that the IIHF is involved.

You are wrong about NHL player availability too. The team is 2/3 announced before the playoffs start. The rest filled in by first round losers. You can't wait until the last minute to announce everyone. Players have just gone through a full 82 game schedule, including intense playoff positioning races and playoff games. Many are playing injured, many are fatigued and the thought of going half way around the world to play in a tournament that most over here don't put stock in isn't the prestige you might think it is.

Lately Canada has been using the WHC as a sort of tryout for younger players and an opportunity to give guys national team experience. Half the squad last year was 25 or under.
No, it's more like no one cares if Canada doesn't view it as an important event, so it's really too bad for Canadians. I just think it's very ignorant.

I'm not wrong about NHL availability either, Russia had 2nd round playoff exit players joining the team. No one cares if some player is tired- that is not a barrier for other countries, why is it all the sudden for Canadian players??

And as far as a tryout goes, they've gotten their ***** kicked 3 years in a row for that policy, so obviously it's not just bad luck.

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12-11-2012, 06:21 AM
  #590
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
No, it's more like no one cares if Canada doesn't view it as an important event, so it's really too bad for Canadians. I just think it's very ignorant.
I'm not wrong about NHL availability either, Russia had 2nd round playoff exit players joining the team. No one cares if some player is tired- that is not a barrier for other countries, why is it all the sudden for Canadian players??

And as far as a tryout goes, they've gotten their ***** kicked 3 years in a row for that policy, so obviously it's not just bad luck.
Ignorant means lack of knowledge. Are you saying Canadians don't know an inferior brand of hockey when they see it?

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12-11-2012, 06:31 AM
  #591
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
So, you have a tournament that was largely held on North American soil (except once), took place in the summer months, employed NHL officials, and was won largely by North American (re: except for 1981) teams throughout its entire history.

Do I believe that Europeans put a lot of stock in this tournament? No, and it's pretty obvious why.

Now you've got another tournament that was largely held on European soil (except once), took place during the NHL playoffs, employed European trained officials, and was won largely by European countries throughout its entire history (once you get past the era of black and white television).

I wonder where I could be going with this.
To be fair, both USA and Canada have completely failed in pretty much all competitions outside of North America.

Nagano and Turin were the last two examples.

On the other hand, Canada was both Olympics best-on-best in NA...

So, whatever. Home ice matters, I guess.

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12-11-2012, 07:04 AM
  #592
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Ignorant means lack of knowledge. Are you saying Canadians don't know an inferior brand of hockey when they see it?
Apparently so, NHL teams don't even come close to how stacked the European countries get around WC time. Even Team Canada that was sent over there when added up would have like 120 million salary if it played in the NHL. The hockey is really good too, much better than the grind that NHL final was last year with injured Kovy. Finals were soo boring, who cares about LAK or NJD other than people from those cities...

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12-11-2012, 07:22 AM
  #593
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Apparently so, NHL teams don't even come close to how stacked the European countries get around WC time. Even Team Canada that was sent over there when added up would have like 120 million salary if it played in the NHL. The hockey is really good too, much better than the grind that NHL final was last year with injured Kovy. Finals were soo boring, who cares about LAK or NJD other than people from those cities...
Something...something... ignorance...

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12-11-2012, 07:28 AM
  #594
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
An arrogant person is the only person that believes he/she is the best at something. That is not true of Canadians now, but I think it will be if Russia wins gold in Sochi, and Canadians continue to believe they're the best. Russia has put themselves in a position to overtake Canada with quality WJC/WC performances, but they haven't finished jumping that hurdle until they win on the biggest stage.
Oh so we are using "ifs" and "buts" to attack Canadians.. good to know.


The thread at hand was about Russia being number 1 right now. They are not, Canadians and Russia and Sweds and Fins and Americans have all said it. Yet Many Russians are still here calling us arrogant and trying to prove otherwise.


This thread didn't get to 24 pages because of what has been proven, it is at 24 pages because Canadians/Hockey Canada keep getting called out in a effort to prove that Canada is not #1, even by those who have openly admitted that we are. Sounds pretty trollish to me.

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12-11-2012, 07:38 AM
  #595
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Something...something... ignorance...
not really, it's 2 cities vs 16 countries...hmmm

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12-11-2012, 07:49 AM
  #596
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
No, it's more like no one cares if Canada doesn't view it as an important event, so it's really too bad for Canadians. I just think it's very ignorant.
No, apparently it matters to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
And as far as a tryout goes, they've gotten their ***** kicked 3 years in a row for that policy, so obviously it's not just bad luck.
Meh.

If it gets the younger players some experience before the Olympics, then it's worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corto
To be fair, both USA and Canada have completely failed in pretty much all competitions outside of North America.

Nagano and Turin were the last two examples.

On the other hand, Canada was both Olympics best-on-best in NA...

So, whatever. Home ice matters, I guess.
Well, at least the tournament moves around.

If history repeats, then you'll see the US and Canada struggle at Sochi (even if the NHLers do make it).

However, to say they "completely failed" at Nagano is a bit strong. Canada lost in a SO in the semi-finals against one of the greatest goalies of all-time after a lackluster opening round.

Not all that different from Vancouver, in terms of the early stages of the tourney, where they were beaten pretty decisively by the US, or in SLC, where they got smoked by Sweden.

In the end, it's the final outcome that matters, and Gold is the only colour that counts, so you're right.

But Canada has started every Olympics tournament slowly.


Last edited by NyQuil: 12-11-2012 at 07:58 AM.
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12-11-2012, 07:54 AM
  #597
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not really, it's 2 cities vs 16 countries...hmmm
16 countries, and only 3 maybe 4 are relevant in the hockey world.


Like it or not the NHL is the forefront of the hockey universe, and finals IS more important to many then the WHC.

I don't know why you fight so hard for a 2nd rate international tournament.

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12-11-2012, 07:56 AM
  #598
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For my part, I watched the NHL Finals.

There's no substitute for a team that has played through the NHL playoffs where every player on each team is a cog in a tremendous hockey machine.

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12-11-2012, 08:10 AM
  #599
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Olympics is still the barometer for me. WHC and WJC are fun, but don't mean much. The Olympics is the only real best on best tournament.
This is the correct answer.

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12-11-2012, 08:11 AM
  #600
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
16 countries, and only 3 maybe 4 are relevant in the hockey world.


Like it or not the NHL is the forefront of the hockey universe, and finals IS more important to many then the WHC.

I don't know why you fight so hard for a 2nd rate international tournament.
I see, 3 or 4 countries are relevant in your mind...So you're saying that Canada, Russia, US and maybe Sweden are relevant. That means Finland, Czech Republic and Slovakia are irrelevant I guess. Good to know for future discussions...easier to filter the ignorant away.

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