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The Lockout Thread UPD 1/6 - framework of new CBA agreed to

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Old
12-07-2012, 04:20 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by CrazedZooChimp View Post
Also, pensions? Are you freaking kidding me? Drop one of your cool million into a 401K and you'll have more to retire on than I ever will!
Good. I wasn't the only one thinking this then.

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12-07-2012, 04:33 PM
  #352
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By the same token though, the owners said something along the lines of "the 50/50 split is the biggest thing we need for the survival of hockey" yet the 5 year contracts is the "hill they will die on". They have been just as disingenuous. It's all a PR campaign, both sides. Why is the contract length so important to the owners? Is it really worth losing a whole season over? If its such an issue, they didn't have to give out the long term contracts. Sharks management managed not to cave. I'm pretty sick of the whole process. Both sides have lied and postured, it's just frustrating not having hockey. I disagree one side is more to blame than another, they're equally at fault here.
Yes, contract terms were in their initial request. They have been consistent about including it as critical. It is the press that has discounted the importance. There are a couple of reasons for the importance of the terms. The biggest reason is insurance. I did a rough calc where they are losing about $100mil in insurance for the big contracts. That is money that is lost to both owners and players. Over a ten year CBA, you are talking $1bil. That is a lot. And the insurability term of contracts has been reduced over the last couple of years from a 7 year term to a 5 year term. Premiums are going up and are astronomical for contracts beyond the 5 year limit (actuarial tables caught up to the real payouts).

The second reason is bring compensation in line with the face value of contracts. With the stink the players made about Make Whole, this is part of the response. "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice . . . " The contract term issues are part of the initiative from the league aimed at reducing the need for escrow.

Finally, the term of the CBA is of monetary value. The players asking for 5 years was ridiculous as the league is competing for sponsorship dollars. Part of their pitch to sponsors is the potential for labor peace once the deal is done. They are already getting heat from sponsors. A reductions in sponsor dollars under the terms of the rest of the agreement will directly hurt the players as they will still be using HRR to determine player pay.

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12-07-2012, 04:37 PM
  #353
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I've read an article saying Crosby's insurance is $400k a month. That **** cray.

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12-07-2012, 04:54 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Yes, contract terms were in their initial request. They have been consistent about including it as critical. It is the press that has discounted the importance. There are a couple of reasons for the importance of the terms. The biggest reason is insurance. I did a rough calc where they are losing about $100mil in insurance for the big contracts. That is money that is lost to both owners and players. Over a ten year CBA, you are talking $1bil. That is a lot. And the insurability term of contracts has been reduced over the last couple of years from a 7 year term to a 5 year term. Premiums are going up and are astronomical for contracts beyond the 5 year limit (actuarial tables caught up to the real payouts).

The second reason is bring compensation in line with the face value of contracts. With the stink the players made about Make Whole, this is part of the response. "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice . . . " The contract term issues are part of the initiative from the league aimed at reducing the need for escrow.

Finally, the term of the CBA is of monetary value. The players asking for 5 years was ridiculous as the league is competing for sponsorship dollars. Part of their pitch to sponsors is the potential for labor peace once the deal is done. They are already getting heat from sponsors. A reductions in sponsor dollars under the terms of the rest of the agreement will directly hurt the players as they will still be using HRR to determine player pay.

Thanks for the reply, and the informative response. It explains a lot. I'm tired of pointing fingers and being mad. Just want hockey.

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12-07-2012, 06:03 PM
  #355
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Crosby's comments today prove how totally clueless the players are about what's really going on. Enjoy playing in Switzerland for half of what you could have made here under a new CBA. Oh and don't forget to spend half of that money on insuring that delicate noggin of yours.

F the players. They're the reason we don't have hockey right now, regardless of how they spin it to the media. They can all go to Europe and blow out their knees for all I care.

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12-07-2012, 09:26 PM
  #356
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Why should the players care right now? I got the impression that they wrote this season off since negotiations started. A nice group of them are still getting paid in Europe, so they have no real intensive to break. They know they got the NHL by the ya-yas right now, so why would they give up some of the sweetheart deals they got right now?

I don't know whats gonna happen, but I'm worried if there will even be hockey to start the season NEXT year, let alone salvaging the one we got this year.

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12-07-2012, 09:34 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Spacemania View Post
Why should the players care right now? I got the impression that they wrote this season off since negotiations started. A nice group of them are still getting paid in Europe, so they have no real intensive to break. They know they got the NHL by the ya-yas right now, so why would they give up some of the sweetheart deals they got right now?

I don't know whats gonna happen, but I'm worried if there will even be hockey to start the season NEXT year, let alone salvaging the one we got this year.
Are you being serious or sarcastic? None of the players have 'sweetheart' deals and even the few of them with some reasonably big $$ involved are having to shell out big dollars each month for insurance. And they're living half way across the world, away from their families. You think that's a sweetheart deal?

75+ percent of the players in the league are sitting on their ass right now watching on average about 10 percent of their lifetime net earnings go out the window, never to be recovered.

The only leverage the players have is decertification and that's the labor equivalent of Russian roulette.

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12-09-2012, 03:17 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Are you being serious or sarcastic? None of the players have 'sweetheart' deals and even the few of them with some reasonably big $$ involved are having to shell out big dollars each month for insurance. And they're living half way across the world, away from their families. You think that's a sweetheart deal?

75+ percent of the players in the league are sitting on their ass right now watching on average about 10 percent of their lifetime net earnings go out the window, never to be recovered.

The only leverage the players have is decertification and that's the labor equivalent of Russian roulette.
never know the nhl might decide to declare a impasse or whatever that thing is where the league/players who ever did it 1st. says we cannot get this done we just can't compromise and then it goes to the courts for the courts to decide on which proposals to use.

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Old
12-10-2012, 12:50 AM
  #359
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We can't look at this purely from the perspective of players vs. owners.

There's no doubt that the players are being hurt more financially from this lockout than the owners.

While the game was being played, all of the players benefited, as they were being paid to play the game.

However, some of the owners were actually losing millions. During that same time, some of the owners (those who were doing very well) were benefiting along with the players.

Now having said that, if I'm one of the owners who was losing money, I would keep this lockout going as long as necessary in order to get a change in how the league operates so that I could also benefit from having a season (alongside all of the players and the rest of the other owners).

So the players should want to play again ASAP, because as others have said, they really are losing the most from not playing the game. The billionaire owners who do great each year should also want to get the game going ASAP, because they're missing out on the revenue they gain each year from their investment. However, the owners with losses each season definitely want to fix the financial portion of the game, since they lose millions every year.

Knowing all of that, I would expect the players to be willing to do what is necessary in order to have a season, since they lose the most. Not only are they dealing from a weaker position, they also are losing the most by not playing hockey.

From the very little I've read about all of this, I don't feel the players understand this, or that their the NHLPA reps are approaching these negotiations with all of this in mind.

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Old
12-10-2012, 02:49 AM
  #360
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Old
12-10-2012, 10:53 AM
  #361
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Great

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

Further NHL regular season cancellations today. Thru Dec 30th.

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12-10-2012, 11:46 AM
  #362
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Great

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

Further NHL regular season cancellations today. Thru Dec 30th.
This seemed inevitable

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Old
12-10-2012, 02:26 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Great

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

Further NHL regular season cancellations today. Thru Dec 30th.
that was inevitable with how talks ended.

whether there will be a season depends on if fehr is negotiating against an internal deadline. if he's not working with any sort of deadline to at the very least get all he can without losing the season, then this year is gone and i'd be worried about next year.

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12-10-2012, 04:55 PM
  #364
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14 days. If there's no deal in place by then, the season will be cancelled. But I'm guessing we won't have to even wait that long. We'll know by late this week whether either side is interested in conceding what's needed to get a deal done. If they don't meet at all or if they meet and it's the same old BS about how far each side has come to center, it's over. My guess is the owners are collectively pissed off now, including the doves, and there is zero chance they are going to improve anything. So the only thing left to discover is whether the players want to accept the offer that was presented last week and play hockey this year or not.

My opinion is still what is was last summer - that there will be no hockey played this year.

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Old
12-10-2012, 07:12 PM
  #365
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14 days. If there's no deal in place by then, the season will be cancelled. But I'm guessing we won't have to even wait that long. We'll know by late this week whether either side is interested in conceding what's needed to get a deal done. If they don't meet at all or if they meet and it's the same old BS about how far each side has come to center, it's over. My guess is the owners are collectively pissed off now, including the doves, and there is zero chance they are going to improve anything. So the only thing left to discover is whether the players want to accept the offer that was presented last week and play hockey this year or not.

My opinion is still what is was last summer - that there will be no hockey played this year.
I really think Jan 1 or shortly there after is the last possible date to start a season. Man, it appears we are closer... with not much time to go... sounds like dramatic holiday is in the works for hockey fans.

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12-10-2012, 09:04 PM
  #366
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Solid representation from SJS fans there.

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Old
12-11-2012, 02:46 AM
  #367
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Is Fehr even a real person, or is he a role played by Colin Mochrie?!

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Old
12-11-2012, 10:57 AM
  #368
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
14 days. If there's no deal in place by then, the season will be cancelled. But I'm guessing we won't have to even wait that long. We'll know by late this week whether either side is interested in conceding what's needed to get a deal done. If they don't meet at all or if they meet and it's the same old BS about how far each side has come to center, it's over. My guess is the owners are collectively pissed off now, including the doves, and there is zero chance they are going to improve anything. So the only thing left to discover is whether the players want to accept the offer that was presented last week and play hockey this year or not.

My opinion is still what is was last summer - that there will be no hockey played this year.
january 28th is the magical day probably, that is probably the very latest they could start the season. (winnipeg was scheduled to play 48 games from that date on).

so if the season starts on january 1st we could be potentially looking at 56-62 games still.

and even more if they decide to extend the season into late april.

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12-11-2012, 12:00 PM
  #369
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Is Fehr even a real person, or is he a role played by Colin Mochrie?!

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12-11-2012, 12:03 PM
  #370
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Now having said that, if I'm one of the owners who was losing money, I would keep this lockout going as long as necessary in order to get a change in how the league operates so that I could also benefit from having a season (alongside all of the players and the rest of the other owners).
I read somewhere that BOS: Jeremy Jacobs is the "ring leader" of the holdouts. having won the Cup two years ago, i wouldn't say they would be in a financial crisis situation...but their loss is Tim Thomas. Now all of this is speculation by myself and some of my peers, but, would it be safe to say that BOS is holding out because even though they have Rask, they don't have Thomas and why we don't have hockey? Has anyone even really looked into that? Just changing the conversation a little.

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12-11-2012, 04:37 PM
  #371
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lol tell me i'm not the only one who sees it.

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12-11-2012, 04:45 PM
  #372
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I read somewhere that BOS: Jeremy Jacobs is the "ring leader" of the holdouts. having won the Cup two years ago, i wouldn't say they would be in a financial crisis situation...but their loss is Tim Thomas. Now all of this is speculation by myself and some of my peers, but, would it be safe to say that BOS is holding out because even though they have Rask, they don't have Thomas and why we don't have hockey? Has anyone even really looked into that? Just changing the conversation a little.
After the latest, the statements from Burkle and Tanenbaum indicated that the owners were more rather than less unified. Two doves indicating that the PA wasn't in the ballpark. The mediators confirmed the distance between the sides even when Fehr was championing "We're not far apart". The not apart catchphrase is a political statement for his constituency. Number crunching says otherwise. It isn't one guy carrying the flag for the owners. Don't be surprised if it comes out that Compton is on the side of the hawks.

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12-11-2012, 05:06 PM
  #373
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http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...your-heart-out

Couture talks about last week's talks and how the back and forth rips your heart out.

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12-11-2012, 05:24 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by apparitionSHELL View Post
I read somewhere that BOS: Jeremy Jacobs is the "ring leader" of the holdouts. having won the Cup two years ago, i wouldn't say they would be in a financial crisis situation...but their loss is Tim Thomas. Now all of this is speculation by myself and some of my peers, but, would it be safe to say that BOS is holding out because even though they have Rask, they don't have Thomas and why we don't have hockey? Has anyone even really looked into that? Just changing the conversation a little.
Nothing to do with it.

There are only two facts anyone needs to know in order to understand why we are currently in day who-knows-or-cares-anymore of a lockout.

The first is the return on investment the owners are making as a group. Take the operating income estimates for all the teams, divide it by either the current Forbes value estimates or, more realistically, the total amount paid for all the franchises when they last changed hands plus any additional capital investment. The return on investment you will get is not even remotely close to sufficient for the amount of capital the owners have invested in the league and the days of owners just losing money year after year are over in every major sports league. The NHL is simply the last of the major sports leagues to get a dose of religion on this.

The second is that Don Fehr is the head of the NHLPA.

Put those two facts together and you get a long lockout. Didn't take a rocket scientist to see this coming a year ago.

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12-11-2012, 11:28 PM
  #375
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lol tell me i'm not the only one who sees it.
nope, not the only one

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