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Old
12-10-2012, 07:02 PM
  #1
Roof Daddy
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Oilers - Kings

To EDM: Clifford

To LAK: Paajarvi

While Paajarvi has shown some improvement in the physicality department and looks like he should become a solid 3rd liner who can PK, he is not physical enough to be a 3rd liner on the Oil for the simple fact we lack size and grit in the top 6. In LA however, they have size and grit throughout their line up, thus a player like Paajarvi could succeed as a 3rd liner (with Stoll and King). The idea of acquiring Clifford would be to get the player we thought we were getting in Eager. The incentive for the Kings is adding some speed to the lineup, one of the few areas they seem to lack in.


Thoughts?

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Old
12-10-2012, 07:06 PM
  #2
Rorschach
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I'd like to trade them back for each other...MPS is a bit like Loktionov, a talented skill guy who is not huge and wouldn't be utilized well in our defense-first, hard-forechecking system. On the other hand, Clifford is a bit of that type of player.

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Old
12-10-2012, 07:18 PM
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WeridAl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
To EDM: Clifford

To LAK: Paajarvi

While Paajarvi has shown some improvement in the physicality department and looks like he should become a solid 3rd liner who can PK, he is not physical enough to be a 3rd liner on the Oil for the simple fact we lack size and grit in the top 6. In LA however, they have size and grit throughout their line up, thus a player like Paajarvi could succeed as a 3rd liner (with Stoll and King). The idea of acquiring Clifford would be to get the player we thought we were getting in Eager. The incentive for the Kings is adding some speed to the lineup, one of the few areas they seem to lack in.


Thoughts?
You've clearly haven't watched any Baron games this year.

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Old
12-10-2012, 07:32 PM
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lakai17
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give Moroz a few years.

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Old
12-10-2012, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
You've clearly haven't watched any Baron games this year.
That's one sentence I never expected to see a facepalm in.

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Old
12-10-2012, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
You've clearly haven't watched any Baron games this year.
You say this like every hockey fan on earth should be watching Barons games. I must have missed the memo that OKC = The Official HFBoards NHL Replacement Team To Watch.

Cut people some slack of they have not been paying attention to your farm team during the lockout.

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Old
12-10-2012, 07:33 PM
  #7
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Paajarvi can suit the kings due to his good forechecking and back checking. While adding speed and still be able to chip in offensively. Yes they will lose some size but I feel like they could use the speed more.

Clifford is exactly what the oilers want in the bottom six. But they need to be using their good trade assets to find more of a top six guy.

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12-10-2012, 07:42 PM
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No. Just no. Clifford is being overrated.

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Old
12-10-2012, 08:11 PM
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Clifford is an exceptional young two way player who not only has a great physical aspect to his game but also is a clutch performer as he has proven during his limited playoff exp over the past couple of seasons as well during the regular season.

If the Canucks hadn't put a pile of human excrement into their line up in the first round of last years playoffs Clifford would have shown the rest of the hockey world again what Kings fans have known about him since he came up with the big club.

He is a very valuable young player who is very solid in his own end and the neutral zone and a very good agitator to boot. His primary drawback is that he is a middleweight brawler but tends to want to fight like a heavyweight and that has caused him to pick up a couple of injuries.

The kid is nails and if you watch him play enough you can't help but see his value.

That said MPS is still a great young prospect with allot of speed and still could develop into a top six winger with speed given time.

It isn't a terrible deal but I can see why both teams would balk at it for a bit.

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Old
12-10-2012, 08:30 PM
  #10
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Clifford is the reason the Kings felt they could live without Simmonds when they acquired Richards.

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Old
12-10-2012, 08:43 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
You say this like every hockey fan on earth should be watching Barons games. I must have missed the memo that OKC = The Official HFBoards NHL Replacement Team To Watch.

Cut people some slack of they have not been paying attention to your farm team during the lockout.
Well considering the OP is an Oilers fan, it's not a ridiculous notion to watch some Barons games.

I'm a huge Clifford fan, I would probably do this.

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Old
12-10-2012, 08:54 PM
  #12
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No from Kings. Clifford just fits the Kings system and what they need from him better than MPS would.

Can you imagine MPS on a 4th line with Nolan and Fraser?

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Old
12-10-2012, 08:54 PM
  #13
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I like my team better with Clifford on it than Paajarvi. We already have speedster in Trevor Lewis on the third line. Paajarvi might have a better upside offensively, but he still has to prove it at the NHL level and defensively Lewis was just short of awesome in the playoffs. So i also politely decline this offer, but value is definately there.

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Old
12-10-2012, 10:13 PM
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I agree with Tg Clifford is a talented young man that made the kings based on his phyical play. He is in the best shape of any king. Last one on the ice at practices always working on his game. In a recent interview Dean Lombardi stated this lock out is hurting players like kyle because hes a player with more upside potential then hes showed. He is young right now and imo has 2nd line upside. I would love to put him with richards and carter for a couple months and see what would develope. He doesn't get much time on the ice less then 10 mins a game yet chips in with some secondary scoring. Some king fans think he took a step back in his developement but he was the only one in our bottom six to play over 80 games. He would not be traded imo one of the few phyical players the kings have.

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Old
12-11-2012, 01:12 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
You say this like every hockey fan on earth should be watching Barons games. I must have missed the memo that OKC = The Official HFBoards NHL Replacement Team To Watch.

Cut people some slack of they have not been paying attention to your farm team during the lockout.
If you haven't been watching a player this season then you probably shouldn't be commenting on his long-term ability like you know what you're talking about.

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Old
12-11-2012, 02:39 AM
  #16
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Clifford is an exceptional young two way player who not only has a great physical aspect to his game but also is a clutch performer as he has proven during his limited playoff exp over the past couple of seasons as well during the regular season.
What the...?! Are you talking about Kyle Clifford?

"Exception young two-way player"? - Over his career, the Kings have scored 40% of the goals with him on the ice at 5v5. Exceptional two-way players don't spend 1.5x as many shifts digging pucks out of their own net.

"Clutch performer"? - He has 12 goals in 157 games. He scored 45 goals in the OHL over 184 games - he could barely produce at a 20 goal pace in junior.

Quote:
If the Canucks hadn't put a pile of human excrement into their line up in the first round of last years playoffs Clifford would have shown the rest of the hockey world again what Kings fans have known about him since he came up with the big club.
That he does a fantastic job of letting opposing teams skate around him?

He was given the second easiest minutes of all forwards for the Kings last season (only Colin Fraser saw weaker opposition). He started exactly half his shifts in the offensive zone and half in the defensive zone. Despite soft minutes, he was absolutely obliterated in puck possession - the Kings allowed 8 shots more than they took every 60 minutes that Clifford spent on the ice.

Quote:
He is a very valuable young player who is very solid in his own end and the neutral zone and a very good agitator to boot. His primary drawback is that he is a middleweight brawler but tends to want to fight like a heavyweight and that has caused him to pick up a couple of injuries.
He's a useless young player who doesn't do prevent the opposition from taking shots or scoring chances. His "primary drawback" is that you're very likely to get out shot, out chanced, and outscored when he is on the ice.

Quote:
The kid is nails and if you watch him play enough you can't help but see his value.
The problem with "seeing" his value is that while he may do exciting things that make the fans think he has value, there's a reason he got less than 9 minutes per game at even strength. The Los Angeles Kings played 26 skaters in '11-'12 and Clifford came 24th in even strength TOI/g.

He's a dime/dozen thug with great effort and not a lot of skill.

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Old
12-11-2012, 03:01 AM
  #17
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No thanks.

Magnus has great size, plays a great position game, is fast as lightning and he's playing the body a lot more this year too. Looks like he's starting to pull a Smid on us.

He should still improve offensively. His big problem offensively is that he lacks patience with the puck. That's something you can teach someone.

I'd rather wait with Magnus.

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Old
12-11-2012, 03:05 AM
  #18
dnicks17
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Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
You've clearly haven't watched any Baron games this year.
He's been more physical, but you don't have to act like he's turned into Cam Neely overnight and throw out the facepalm...

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Old
12-11-2012, 03:28 AM
  #19
BonkTastic
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Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
If you haven't been watching a player this season then you probably shouldn't be commenting on his long-term ability like you know what you're talking about.
My point was that if a guy is rating Paajarvi based on his year last season, and you want to correct him based on his AHL season, fine. But don't expect that every NHL fan is going to watch all of his favorite team's Farm games during the lockout.

There's no way every Ottawa Senators fan is watching Binghamton consistently this year. Nor is every Leafs fan following the Marlies on a game-to-game basis. To pile on a guy for not being into the Barons is overkill.

If you're seriously following the AHL and want to chime in, cool. But you need to understand that there are fans out there who aren't watching it. No reason to bring attitude like that.

For instance: "Actually, Paajarvi has been quite physical so far this season in OKC, he's really grown that part of his game since last year"
... How difficult was that?

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Old
12-11-2012, 04:56 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
What the...?! Are you talking about Kyle Clifford?

"Exception young two-way player"? - Over his career, the Kings have scored 40% of the goals with him on the ice at 5v5. Exceptional two-way players don't spend 1.5x as many shifts digging pucks out of their own net.

"Clutch performer"? - He has 12 goals in 157 games. He scored 45 goals in the OHL over 184 games - he could barely produce at a 20 goal pace in junior.


That he does a fantastic job of letting opposing teams skate around him?

He was given the second easiest minutes of all forwards for the Kings last season (only Colin Fraser saw weaker opposition). He started exactly half his shifts in the offensive zone and half in the defensive zone. Despite soft minutes, he was absolutely obliterated in puck possession - the Kings allowed 8 shots more than they took every 60 minutes that Clifford spent on the ice.


He's a useless young player who doesn't do prevent the opposition from taking shots or scoring chances. His "primary drawback" is that you're very likely to get out shot, out chanced, and outscored when he is on the ice.


The problem with "seeing" his value is that while he may do exciting things that make the fans think he has value, there's a reason he got less than 9 minutes per game at even strength. The Los Angeles Kings played 26 skaters in '11-'12 and Clifford came 24th in even strength TOI/g.

He's a dime/dozen thug with great effort and not a lot of skill.
You make some good points, but unfortunately you overreact on a couple of things (some annoyance perhaps ?). That makes your post less valuable. For instance that he was barely a 20 goal scorer in junior. He wasnt drafted because of his offensive output. Otherwise you dont get picked in the 2nd round with 16 goals on your resume...

Its a pretty silly argument. He put up 28 goals in only 58 games after he got drafted. That would have been well above 30 goals in a full OHL season. Quite an improvement. After that season he started to play for the Kings already.

That being said, we shouldnt overrate Kyle Clifford with words like ''exceptional'' , "two-way" and "very good". At one point I thought he could definitely become a gritty powerforward with offensive ability and its still early but I'm starting to have doubts. I just dont see the potential. He's not a very good defensive player IMO, hands of stone, not a good shot. I just cant see him putting up offensive numbers in the future. Career 4th liner IMO. I hope I'm wrong though.

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Old
12-11-2012, 11:02 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
He's been more physical, but you don't have to act like he's turned into Cam Neely overnight and throw out the facepalm...
The facepalm is well deserved, getting a little tired of posters offering up Paajarvi, especially when it looks like he has developed a physical game and will be a solid 3rd liner for the Oilers. If the Oiler could find a C with some skill to play with Paajarvi his offensive stats should improve.

Clifford reminds me of Pitlick, but Pitlick has more of a offensive upside and speed. Would love to have Clifford, but the Oilers have a few Cliffords in the system, not willing to give up Paajarvi for him.

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Old
12-11-2012, 11:07 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
What the...?! Are you talking about Kyle Clifford?

"Exception young two-way player"? - Over his career, the Kings have scored 40% of the goals with him on the ice at 5v5. Exceptional two-way players don't spend 1.5x as many shifts digging pucks out of their own net.

"Clutch performer"? - He has 12 goals in 157 games. He scored 45 goals in the OHL over 184 games - he could barely produce at a 20 goal pace in junior.


That he does a fantastic job of letting opposing teams skate around him?

He was given the second easiest minutes of all forwards for the Kings last season (only Colin Fraser saw weaker opposition). He started exactly half his shifts in the offensive zone and half in the defensive zone. Despite soft minutes, he was absolutely obliterated in puck possession - the Kings allowed 8 shots more than they took every 60 minutes that Clifford spent on the ice.


He's a useless young player who doesn't do prevent the opposition from taking shots or scoring chances. His "primary drawback" is that you're very likely to get out shot, out chanced, and outscored when he is on the ice.


The problem with "seeing" his value is that while he may do exciting things that make the fans think he has value, there's a reason he got less than 9 minutes per game at even strength. The Los Angeles Kings played 26 skaters in '11-'12 and Clifford came 24th in even strength TOI/g.

He's a dime/dozen thug with great effort and not a lot of skill.


That was funny and I needed the laugh.

Sure looks like someone has an axe to grind.

If he is as terrible as you seem to think that he is then why would the Kings ever bother not only keeping him but have spoken publicly about how valuable he is to the team today and going forward? Why would a team that is overloaded with young two way character types like KC ever place any value on a player like you are suggesting Clifford to be?

They wouldn't. Your liberal use of stats in an effort to try and show that KC is a valuable NHL player for the Kings only shows that once again stats aren't the only way of proving a players value and doubly so when we are talking about character types.

Clutch performer? He has 5 points in 9 playoff games at the NHL level is plus 3 and has drawn 43 penalty minutes while taking 4. He was valuable to the Kings in each of the playoff games that he has appeared in all this while being given limited minutes due to the fact that he is still developing as an NHL player (he did just turn 21 so we are talking about what he has done at the NHL level as a 19 through 20 yo that the Kings felt good enough about to have him go from jrs straight to the NHL) and of course was injured after being run from behind by a cheapshot hack who actually doesnt belong playing in the NHL.

Clifford is a clutch performer and has proven himself to be so by the team who just won the cup and that is at least good enough for me all things considered.

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Old
12-11-2012, 11:35 AM
  #23
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Kyle Clifford is a 4th border line 3rd liner while MPS has the skill to be a second liner if he can get his act together.

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Old
12-11-2012, 11:41 AM
  #24
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Kyle Clifford is a 4th border line 3rd liner while MPS has the skill to be a second liner if he can get his act together.
You left out that he is being judged based upon his performance as a 19/20yo character type who went directly from jrs to the NHL and even so has remained in the NHL even in his diminished role.

I think that MPS is the better player of the two potentially but then we haven't seen either of them play at their best at the NHL level just yet and they are two totally different types of player as well.

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12-11-2012, 11:43 AM
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Clifford is the reason the Kings felt they could live without Simmonds when they acquired Richards.
And now I'd say the emergence of Jordan Nolan lessons the loss of Clifford dramatically.

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