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Old
12-11-2012, 10:47 AM
  #801
Liferleafer
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
I don't know what the Canucks would want in trade, but I could guess Gillis values many of the Leafs more than you do. Players can appear to be playing poorly, because their goalie never covers up for any of their mistakes. Luongo did this a lot in Vancouver, and would do the same in Toronto. His play, would build confidence in his teammates. Confident players, play much better than ones who lack it. If Luongo is traded to Toronto, fans will be shocked how much better the Leafs' players appear to playing with a true #1.
I think you are misunderstanding me. I don't undervalue our players. I'm sure there are players Gillis values, the problem is, if we use his initial demands...the price is to high. It becomes what can we afford to give.

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12-11-2012, 11:01 AM
  #802
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I find it interesting that there are non-Leafs fans that actually believe that the Leafs are contenders with Lou while Leaf fans (that are realistic imo) believe that they will barely make the playoffs with Lou. Is some alternate universe or are us Leaf fans getting trolled?

Anyway I agree, Lou would certainly be a fantastic addition but the crux of the matter is the cost. It would be imperative for the Leafs would have to get Lou at a good price, not necessarily a steal, but a good price because I do not think the Leafs can afford to over pay.

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12-11-2012, 11:09 AM
  #803
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Originally Posted by CellarDweller0 View Post
I find it interesting that there are non-Leafs fans that actually believe that the Leafs are contenders with Lou while Leaf fans (that are realistic imo) believe that they will barely make the playoffs with Lou. Is some alternate universe or are us Leaf fans getting trolled?

Anyway I agree, Lou would certainly be a fantastic addition but the crux of the matter is the cost. It would be imperative for the Leafs would have to get Lou at a good price, not necessarily a steal, but a good price because I do not think the Leafs can afford to over pay.
This is exactly what i have been preaching. The issue becomes, no matter what we offer, Van fans (for the most part) call it trash.

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12-11-2012, 11:10 AM
  #804
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Originally Posted by CellarDweller0 View Post
I find it interesting that there are non-Leafs fans that actually believe that the Leafs are contenders with Lou while Leaf fans (that are realistic imo) believe that they will barely make the playoffs with Lou. Is some alternate universe or are us Leaf fans getting trolled?
With a goaltender like Roberto and the state of the team, the Leafs are looking at a 9th/8th place battle for the playoffs. He'd be a significant improvement in net for the next couple of years.

But the Leafs are in average to below average shape in every other position. All Roberto would do is elevate us to the status of mediocre from terrible for a couple of years, and draft mediocre prospects to go along with it. I also refuse to believe that a single player (Roberto) could possibly make us a more attractive option for UFAs either.

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12-11-2012, 11:18 AM
  #805
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Why would Canucks fans be pissed? Even if we get a 5th for Luongo we'd still be considered contenders... The only way I'm pissed when the session starts is if it isn't this year.

If I was a Leafs fan that was desperate to see my team in the playoffs, and I know a few, I'd be happy with any deal where Luongo is moved for futures, even 3 unprotected firsts, and pissed if he goes any where else.
But you're not, no need to go out on a limb for us and project. Luongo's cap hit is good, his contract length is baddddddd.

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12-11-2012, 11:20 AM
  #806
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
With a goaltender like Roberto and the state of the team, the Leafs are looking at a 9th/8th place battle for the playoffs. He'd be a significant improvement in net for the next couple of years.

But the Leafs are in average to below average shape in every other position. All Roberto would do is elevate us to the status of mediocre from terrible for a couple of years, and draft mediocre prospects to go along with it. I also refuse to believe that a single player (Roberto) could possibly make us a more attractive option for UFAs either.
I think that might be a little dramatic. We are solid on wing, our defense isn't that bad (if Carlyle can put a defensive system in place). We NEED help at center....and we NEED help in goal.

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12-11-2012, 11:35 AM
  #807
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Leafs need more defensively oriented defensemen. They have some good defencemen but they're unbalanced. Would be nice for them if Komi could start playing actual defence again... and Liles played a full season.

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12-11-2012, 11:39 AM
  #808
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Originally Posted by CellarDweller0 View Post
I find it interesting that there are non-Leafs fans that actually believe that the Leafs are contenders with Lou while Leaf fans (that are realistic imo) believe that they will barely make the playoffs with Lou. Is some alternate universe or are us Leaf fans getting trolled?

Anyway I agree, Lou would certainly be a fantastic addition but the crux of the matter is the cost. It would be imperative for the Leafs would have to get Lou at a good price, not necessarily a steal, but a good price because I do not think the Leafs can afford to over pay.
I totally understand this POV, and I have been trying to find a deal that could work for both. So my main question is what is more important to you? You current roster or your futures?

From an outsiders POV, I would say your now, as you need to keep a few key pieces like Kessel, and you do have a lot of depth, (not high end) but depth from prospects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I think that might be a little dramatic. We are solid on wing, our defense isn't that bad (if Carlyle can put a defensive system in place). We NEED help at center....and we NEED help in goal.

If we had a center to throw your way I would... Raymond has played center

I think putting together a solid trade for both teams is very hard, as we don't really match up well, it is also hard to figure out what each GM really values. I think Bozak seems to be valued (not sure why from our teams current needs), highy by our GM.

Now is when we get murky, cause after that I am not sure of what is. I have grown to like Kadri more, but not sure our GM would, I know you won't part with Gardiner or Rielly, so where is the balance?

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12-11-2012, 11:44 AM
  #809
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... there's been no consistency on Luongo's value in this entire thread, top 6 forwards, third line centres, apparently Luongo is worth Jake Gardiner and Morgan Rielly (i... i don't even know where to begin with that comment), 3 first round picks (again...what?), the canucks don't want him anymore from what i'm hearing, all your cards are exposed, i'm struggling to see a scenario where you somehow walk away from this trade with anything like what is being said above

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12-11-2012, 11:49 AM
  #810
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Big revelation right there. But all he would do is mask inefficiencies within the organization. Roberto won't be making any players better.

Roberto would certainly be a great netminder for Toronto for a year, maybe two. The issues begin when he begins his decline and then it's the Leafs stuck in the unenviable position of trying to unload an albatross contract.

The very nature of that situation and the tenuous position it will leave the team that acquires Roberto in means the Canucks can't be expecting any top prospects or even good prospects.

Show me an example in the past of a player that was Roberto's age, signed for another decade, and asked for a trade returning significant assets? It hasn't happened and Roberto certainly won't be setting a precedent in this instance.
you want an example of a player similar to luongo being traded at this age. well if you look at his career and stats and consinstency, there has only been a few goalies in the history of the league that have been as consistent as him.

Hasek 735games .922
Thomas 378games .921
Lundqvist 468games .920
Luongo 727games .919

Luongo is an all time great, and has plenty left in the tank. like 6 more years of elite play. Guess how many other goalies have played 700+ games and had a save% of .919 or better? Just Hasek and Luongo.

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Old
12-11-2012, 11:51 AM
  #811
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Leafs could definately make the playoffs with Lu. The combination of his increased sv% contributing to +/- and players playing better as a result of greater confidence in their goalie and the addition of Lu's leadership would no doubt put the Leafs in the running for a playoff position by the end of the season.

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12-11-2012, 11:55 AM
  #812
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Whenever I picture Luongo on the Leafs I think of Belfour, older guy, still lots to prove, still solid.

As a big Belfour guy, I like the trade, it just can't be at the expense of the Leafs future, because its certainly not hampering the Canucks future. It would have to be a hockey trade, not a fleecing, like some people have made it out to be

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12-11-2012, 12:09 PM
  #813
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Originally Posted by MakeTheIronSing View Post
Whenever I picture Luongo on the Leafs I think of Belfour, older guy, still lots to prove, still solid.

As a big Belfour guy, I like the trade, it just can't be at the expense of the Leafs future, because its certainly not hampering the Canucks future. It would have to be a hockey trade, not a fleecing, like some people have made it out to be
But it has to be a hockey trade both ways. You are not going to trade us Gardiner or rielly just like we won't take pieces that don't fit our needs. We need either a piece that fits us now, top 6 RW, or something of value to use down the road.

We are talking about a goalie who when all is said and done will be top 5 all time in S/O, wins, and a good chance at being very high on the list for SV%.

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12-11-2012, 12:13 PM
  #814
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
But it has to be a hockey trade both ways. You are not going to trade us Gardiner or rielly just like we won't take pieces that don't fit our needs. We need either a piece that fits us now, top 6 RW, or something of value to use down the road.

We are talking about a goalie who when all is said and done will be top 5 all time in S/O, wins, and a good chance at being very high on the list for SV%.
The problem is, we are trading for what he will do going forward...not what he's done. Alot of those stats have been inflated by playing on a great team for the past few seasons. Now, don't get me wrong...i feel he is a good/great goalie, but he is 33...and we are not the Canucks. The challenge would be huge here.

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12-11-2012, 12:16 PM
  #815
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Originally Posted by MakeTheIronSing View Post
Whenever I picture Luongo on the Leafs I think of Belfour, older guy, still lots to prove, still solid.

As a big Belfour guy, I like the trade, it just can't be at the expense of the Leafs future, because its certainly not hampering the Canucks future. It would have to be a hockey trade, not a fleecing, like some people have made it out to be
Although both Gardiner and Rielly could be absolutely dominant in Vancouver's system, I'm confident Burke knows that he can still get Luongo without giving either. On the other hand, a number of other teams would get in on Lu if they could get him for little and Gillis might choose to hold on to both Luongo and Schneider if the return brings back little of significance. Kadri is an interesting trade piece as he could both benefit from a change in scenery and potentially offer the Canucks a 2nd line playmaker who can bring a different skillset than Raymond's/Higgins'.

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12-11-2012, 12:17 PM
  #816
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Originally Posted by MakeTheIronSing View Post
Whenever I picture Luongo on the Leafs I think of Belfour, older guy, still lots to prove, still solid.

As a big Belfour guy, I like the trade, it just can't be at the expense of the Leafs future, because its certainly not hampering the Canucks future. It would have to be a hockey trade, not a fleecing, like some people have made it out to be
A fleecing is getting a franchise goalie for a mediocre NHLer, a B prospect, and two C prospects.

The allure of youth, when it isn't great has grown tiresome.

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12-11-2012, 12:18 PM
  #817
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I think that might be a little dramatic. We are solid on wing, our defense isn't that bad (if Carlyle can put a defensive system in place). We NEED help at center....and we NEED help in goal.
Yeah, I dont think the 5th place finish was a direct reflection of this team.

When people say Luongo makes this team a playoff team, I think its an accurate thought.

But this is a team that could surprise a lot of teams if they make the playoffs.

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12-11-2012, 12:21 PM
  #818
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Originally Posted by MakeTheIronSing View Post
Whenever I picture Luongo on the Leafs I think of Belfour, older guy, still lots to prove, still solid.

As a big Belfour guy, I like the trade, it just can't be at the expense of the Leafs future, because its certainly not hampering the Canucks future. It would have to be a hockey trade, not a fleecing, like some people have made it out to be
His contract dictates it won't be a hockey trade.

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12-11-2012, 12:33 PM
  #819
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His contract dictates it won't be a hockey trade.
A circumventing contract that league feels gives teams an unfair advantage....yeah, sure, can't be a hockey trade.

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12-11-2012, 12:34 PM
  #820
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
The problem is, we are trading for what he will do going forward...not what he's done. Alot of those stats have been inflated by playing on a great team for the past few seasons. Now, don't get me wrong...i feel he is a good/great goalie, but he is 33...and we are not the Canucks. The challenge would be huge here.
You could also argue playing on a terrible NYI then FLA team also decreased his numbers.

I think most people would think he has at the very least 3 more season of current play, and it can easily be argued he has 3 more after that. Any other argument is based on small chances, and that could be said about anyone.

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12-11-2012, 12:37 PM
  #821
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You could also argue playing on a terrible NYI then FLA team also decreased his numbers.

I think most people would think he has at the very least 3 more season of current play, and it can easily be argued he has 3 more after that. Any other argument is based on small chances, and that could be said about anyone.
You see, i agree with this, what becomes the issue is the other top dollar years before the outs kick in. His value should reflect that.

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12-11-2012, 12:44 PM
  #822
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His value should be dictated by how much he can help the Leafs retain upcoming UFAs, especially Kessel. Having young players like Rielly, Gardiner, and JVR will certainly help with that but seeing as how Kadri is still a fairly uncertain prospect at this point of his development I could see him being very expendable.

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12-11-2012, 12:45 PM
  #823
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
The problem is, we are trading for what he will do going forward...not what he's done. Alot of those stats have been inflated by playing on a great team for the past few seasons. Now, don't get me wrong...i feel he is a good/great goalie, but he is 33...and we are not the Canucks. The challenge would be huge here.
The thing is though that for the past few seasons the Canucks have played a very high pace offensive system. Not really a goalies best friend. It has been the Canucks goalies that allow them to do this. Luongo doesn't need a great defensive team in front of him to look good, especially not in a Carlyle style system.

Luongo is more then capable of allowing the Leafs to take more risks offensively, and with your collection of offensive d-men I think you could have a very potent offense.

That said, it is tough to find a deal that works between these teams. I personally feel that when you are dealing with a player of Luongo's caliber a first round pick is almost a given. I also think that the Cancuks would have to upgrade in at least 1 position on their roster or they won't go through with the trade. I personally don't see us getting Kulemin, Kadri, Gardiner, Reilly, Lupul. I think those are unrealistic to demand, and that the Canucks would have to look more towards adding better depth pieces to their team, that they could possibly flip for a top 6 upgrade.

Personally I would be a fan of Bozak, Colborne, MacArthur, Carter. I don't know what kind of combo the Leafs would give up, but if it included a couple of those guys I wouldn't be too upset.

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12-11-2012, 12:46 PM
  #824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
The problem is, we are trading for what he will do going forward...not what he's done. Alot of those stats have been inflated by playing on a great team for the past few seasons. Now, don't get me wrong...i feel he is a good/great goalie, but he is 33...and we are not the Canucks. The challenge would be huge here.
Luongo has shown that he is actually better when he is facing a high volume of shots, its the low shooting games that he lets in the ****** goals.

I personally do not mind MacArthur...but he's very similar to Mason Raymond, and very small. Im not sure how well that would work playing on the Vancouver 2nd Line which is just as defensive as offensive...really dont know how well that would work out. Although he has had at least 20 goals the last two seasons, and his low assists could be indicative of Kulemin having an off year.

I would be ok with MacArthur as a return being the center piece, given his offensive upside that he has. Kesler and Booth are probably better line mates in terms of talent then Kulemin sand Grabo. Kes is one year removed from a Selke/42g season. Thats pretty good, and he got those numbers playing with Macy. Im not sure if Raymond is going to be better in this upcoming season after breaking his back in the cup run, but I think he makes a come back tbh.

So if Mac is the center piece, Toronto would definitely have to sweeten the pot. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure who is centering the third line. But I actually think its open right now that Sami Pahlson has left. For this spot, I'm pretty sure Bozak would slot in quite nicely.

So that puts us at Mac, Bozak.

a first round pick is a far gone conclusion that it will be in this deal. It can be 2013, but I personally will not lose any sleep if its 2014 instead. Really not that important in the grand scheme. Its looking more and more like it could we could lose another season here over ********, so i get that its a pretty valuable first. It could be first overall right.

Deferring it a year definitley takes away value from the pick. So there needs to be something else there. A 2nd this year maybe?

So MacArthur, Bozak, 2014 1st, 2013 2nd?

Maybe throw a prospect in there if thats not enough.

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12-11-2012, 12:54 PM
  #825
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So MacArthur, Bozak, 2014 1st, 2013 2nd?

Maybe throw a prospect in there if thats not enough.
This is what I think works too.

The 2013 1st would work on its own, but if its deferred until 2014, the cost would be a 2nd in 2013.

What say you liferleafer?

I don't want to address the front end of the proposal, because I don't think to UFA's to be should be the "centerpiece", but lets leave that for a different conversation.

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