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General UFC/MMA/boxing discussion - Bute vs. Pascal?

View Poll Results: Who wins a fight between Lucian Bute and Jean Pascal ?
Lucian Bute 9 36.00%
Jean Pascal 15 60.00%
Draw 1 4.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-11-2012, 08:43 AM
  #376
Myron Gaines*
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Seems Dana White feels the same way about Silva than I do.
http://www.mmaweekly.com/dana-white-...erson-silva-is
Yeah Silva is untouchable.

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12-11-2012, 08:54 AM
  #377
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Uh, about 99% of the people feel that way not just you.. sorry to ruin the party.
Did I say I was the only one?..
I was referring to the guys that debated against Silva over here, I'm sure you remember there was quite a few as you also partook in the debate and expressed the same opinion I did.

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12-11-2012, 09:45 AM
  #378
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Well, Dana white said it, so it must be true. I also believe every claim that Don King and the Shamwow guy make.

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12-11-2012, 10:23 AM
  #379
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Well, Dana white said it, so it must be true. I also believe every claim that Don King and the Shamwow guy make.
Don King is a promoter, Shamwow is a salesman. Dana White is the CEO of the UFC and his most marketable fighter is GSP, yet he speaks of A.Silva as the greatest with no selling point to a fight.
Your comparisons simply suck.

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12-11-2012, 10:44 AM
  #380
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Don King is a promoter, Shamwow is a salesman. Dana White is the CEO of the UFC and his most marketable fighter is GSP, yet he speaks of A.Silva as the greatest with no selling point to a fight.
Your comparisons simply suck.
Dana White is a promoter, and a salesman, and if you don't realize that, it tells me you haven't been watching MMA for very long. What he was doing is called "sensationalism." He didn't just say that A. Silva was the greatest fighter in MMA history. That much the media says. That much I say. What he said is that the media doesn't know just how good he is. That they need to make a new list for Silva. That he's in a completely different dimension. Which is nothing but pure distilled hype.

I know it's a tired aphorism: but did you actually fall off a turnip truck?

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12-11-2012, 11:18 AM
  #381
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Dana White is a promoter, and a salesman, and if you don't realize that, it tells me you haven't been watching MMA for very long. What he was doing is called "sensationalism." He didn't just say that A. Silva was the greatest fighter in MMA history. That much the media says. That much I say. What he said is that the media doesn't know just how good he is. That they need to make a new list for Silva. That he's in a completely different dimension. Which is nothing but pure distilled hype.

I know it's a tired aphorism: but did you actually fall off a turnip truck?
So if you're such an expert why is it distilled hype?
Surely, it can happen that a fighter is so damn good that he's in a league of its own.
Like you could argue Gretzky was in a league of its own (or maybe with just Lemieux).
So, explain to me why Silva wouldn't be in a different dimension, and you better have better arguments than last time. Not everything is always hype.
If you can't see that in Silva's case, it actually is the real thing, then it is you that haven't been following MMA for very long.

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12-11-2012, 11:41 AM
  #382
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Jones to Silva is what Silva is to GSP. Jones is the champ in the bigger weight division. Read the comments in the ufc article. People say Silva's weight class is the weakest, that he's been spoonfed 1 dimentional agresive fighters while Silva's specialty is counter attack. I'm not happy about GSP fighting Diaz too, but it's more complex than that.

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12-11-2012, 11:47 AM
  #383
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So if you're such an expert why is it distilled hype?
Surely, it can happen that a fighter is so damn good that he's in a league of its own.
Like you could argue Gretzky was in a league of its own (or maybe with just Lemieux).
Probably because the MW division was the weakest division in the UFC outside of the heavies when A. Silva took it over. A math teacher who learned MMA from some VHS tapes was champion. All this was happening when Dana was saying Fedor was ducking Sylvia(). You know, just like a CEO, and not a fight promoter.

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So, explain to me why Silva wouldn't be in a different dimension, and you better have better arguments than last time. Not everything is always hype.
Because no fighter is in another dimension? Sooner or later, the best get beat, and Anderson Silva is not invincible...not even conceivably so.

And what arguments do I have to improve upon? This is the first time I've had to interrupt your A. Silva slurp-fest on its own. Are you referring to how I exposed a real game-plan to beat A. Silva based on analysis of things that actually happened? The most you ever said in response was "nope, Silva's too good at everything."

Stunning.

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If you can't see that in Silva's case, it actually is the real thing, then it is you that haven't been following MMA for very long.
Buddy, I've been around long enough to see Ryo Chonan flying heel hook the guy. You do know that happened, right?

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12-11-2012, 12:55 PM
  #384
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Probably because the MW division was the weakest division in the UFC outside of the heavies when A. Silva took it over. A math teacher who learned MMA from some VHS tapes was champion. All this was happening when Dana was saying Fedor was ducking Sylvia(). You know, just like a CEO, and not a fight promoter.



Because no fighter is in another dimension? Sooner or later, the best get beat, and Anderson Silva is not invincible...not even conceivably so.

And what arguments do I have to improve upon? This is the first time I've had to interrupt your A. Silva slurp-fest on its own. Are you referring to how I exposed a real game-plan to beat A. Silva based on analysis of things that actually happened? The most you ever said in response was "nope, Silva's too good at everything."

Stunning.



Buddy, I've been around long enough to see Ryo Chonan flying heel hook the guy. You do know that happened, right?
your problem is you completely discredit is talent and what and how he's accomplished what he's done so far, I completely agree he cant stay invisible forever but so couldnt Tyson/Ali/Fraser all good things must come to an end. He's the real deal just admit it.

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12-11-2012, 01:15 PM
  #385
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your problem is you completely discredit is talent and what and how he's accomplished what he's done so far, I completely agree he cant stay invisible forever but so couldnt Tyson/Ali/Fraser all good things must come to an end. He's the real deal just admit it.
Yeah, I just need to admit that he's the best MMA fighter in MMA's short history.

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He didn't just say that A. Silva was the greatest fighter in MMA history. That much the media says. That much I say.
Oh wait, I already did. What I didn't admit to was him being some invincible super being like every dominant champ in MMA's short history has been portrayed as, but never is.

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12-11-2012, 01:22 PM
  #386
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Probably because the MW division was the weakest division in the UFC outside of the heavies when A. Silva took it over. A math teacher who learned MMA from some VHS tapes was champion. All this was happening when Dana was saying Fedor was ducking Sylvia(). You know, just like a CEO, and not a fight promoter.
Ah right, for someone who likes to pretend to know a lot you certainly have a hard time differentiating a statement and a hype. Dana White and the UFC were desperate in the HW division and wanted to attract fighters. Not sure how this is comparable to the current situation when they own pretty much all the best fighters and can set up anything they want.
You remember what happen to that Math teacher right? And then you remember what happen to all the other opponents he faced correct? Including fighters in a heavier division.

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Because no fighter is in another dimension? Sooner or later, the best get beat, and Anderson Silva is not invincible...not even conceivably so.

And what arguments do I have to improve upon? This is the first time I've had to interrupt your A. Silva slurp-fest on its own. Are you referring to how I exposed a real game-plan to beat A. Silva based on analysis of things that actually happened? The most you ever said in response was "nope, Silva's too good at everything."

Stunning.
No fighter in another dimension? Wow, great argument...
Just because you're in a league of its own during your prime, doesn't mean you'll never lose or eventually come out of it.
Was Gretzky always in a league of its own? Are you actually going to debate he never was?

A real game plan based on the things that actually happened? You mean based on every single one of his victories??? The game plan you're referring too is the same one better wrestlers have opted for and still failed.
Keep pumping up your shoes though, you're doing a great job, maybe one day you'll be able to dunk.
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Buddy, I've been around long enough to see Ryo Chonan flying heel hook the guy. You do know that happened, right?
So that means you were around for the Matt Hughes loss to armbar and the TKO by Serra. You do know that happened, right?

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12-11-2012, 01:25 PM
  #387
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Oh wait, I already did. What I didn't admit to was him being some invincible super being like every dominant champ in MMA's short history has been portrayed as, but never is.
Nobody ever claimed he was invincible and that he'd never lose.

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12-11-2012, 01:45 PM
  #388
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You remember what happen to that Math teacher right? And then you remember what happen to all the other opponents he faced correct? Including fighters in a heavier division.
ERMAGERD guys, he beat Ferrerst Grirrfirn! You still ducked the fact that the competition he was beating the piss out of wasn't always the best. Something now that people gleefully point out about Fedor's rain of terror.

Watch him fight Jones and we'll see just how other worldly he is. If he's other-worldly, IMO, it's compared to a world that wasn't that great to begin with.

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No fighter in another dimension? Wow, great argument...
Just because you're in a league of its own during your prime, doesn't mean you'll never lose or eventually come out of it.
Was Gretzky always in a league of its own? Are you actually going to debate he never was?
There's a tremendous difference between dominating hockey and dominating MMA, especially given the established state of the league when Gretzky did it, and the state of the MW division when Silva's reign began and now.

You would be better served to compare Silva to Howie Morenz.

You do realize that Rory probably represents the first athlete in the UFC who grew up training nothing but MMA, right?

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A real game plan based on the things that actually happened? You mean based on every single one of his victories??? The game plan you're referring too is the same one better wrestlers have opted for and still failed.
1.) There may be wrestlers with greater accolades, but we saw how accolades in amateur wrestling stack up to GSP when GSP fought Koscheck, Fitch, and Hughes. There is no one who more effectively implements a GNP game in the UFC than GSP.

2.) Based on the fact that these people were able to win rounds off Silva. They all made mistakes. GSP is capable of a perfect fight. What GSP needs to do is not get caught standing. Anderson simply will not submit GSP off his back. I see you've moved off your point that Anderson is better than GSP on the ground. "Oh ****, this guy actually knows grappling. I had to google Braulio..."

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Keep pumping up your shoes though, you're doing a great job, maybe one day you'll be able to dunk.
That makes absolutely no sense.

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So that means you were around for the Matt Hughes loss to armbar and the TKO by Serra. You do know that happened, right?
Yup.

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12-11-2012, 01:48 PM
  #389
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Nobody ever claimed he was invincible and that he'd never lose.
You'd never say as much, but we're not playing that game of "if I didn't say specifically those words, that's not what I meant."

You say that there's no game-plan to beat him. That's he's in another dimension compared to all other MMA fighters. I mean, unless you're a moron, which I haven't categorically ruled out, you have to realize that what you're saying is that the only way he loses is by the stochastic nature of the fight game.

It's silly.

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12-11-2012, 01:59 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
ERMAGERD guys, he beat Ferrerst Grirrfirn! You still ducked the fact that the competition he was beating the piss out of wasn't always the best. Something now that people gleefully point out about Fedor's rain of terror.

Watch him fight Jones and we'll see just how other worldly he is. If he's other-worldly, IMO, it's compared to a world that wasn't that great to begin with.



There's a tremendous difference between dominating hockey and dominating MMA, especially given the established state of the league when Gretzky did it, and the state of the MW division when Silva's reign began and now.

You would be better served to compare Silva to Howie Morenz.

You do realize that Rory probably represents the first athlete in the UFC who grew up training nothing but MMA, right?



1.) There may be wrestlers with greater accolades, but we saw how accolades in amateur wrestling stack up to GSP when GSP fought Koscheck, Fitch, and Hughes. There is no one who more effectively implements a GNP game in the UFC than GSP.

2.) Based on the fact that these people were able to win rounds off Silva. They all made mistakes. GSP is capable of a perfect fight. What GSP needs to do is not get caught standing. Anderson simply will not submit GSP off his back. I see you've moved off your point that Anderson is better than GSP on the ground. "Oh ****, this guy actually knows grappling. I had to google Braulio..."



That makes absolutely no sense.



Yup.
and its quite obvious that your a GSP fanboy and your wearing those fancy rose colored goggles.

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12-11-2012, 02:17 PM
  #391
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and its quite obvious that your a GSP fanboy and your wearing those fancy rose colored goggles.
I'm the fanboy. Sure. You do realize that my interlocutor here has actually said that the fact that Silva asked for 50% ownership of the UFC as the purse for fighting Jones is a sign of confidence.

Unbelievable.

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12-11-2012, 02:23 PM
  #392
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ERMAGERD guys, he beat Ferrerst Grirrfirn! You still ducked the fact that the competition he was beating the piss out of wasn't always the best. Something now that people gleefully point out about Fedor's rain of terror.

Watch him fight Jones and we'll see just how other worldly he is. If he's other-worldly, IMO, it's compared to a world that wasn't that great to begin with.
Ducked? People ALWAYS say that the competition isn't always the best.
NEWSFLASH: When you destroy every one in your division and have the most title defenses with 16 fights all together, you're bound to get weaker opponents.
Also, I don't understand how you'd say this after you quoted yourself saying he's the best MMA fighter in history.
So he's the best fighter in history, but your point is that he's overrated? Great.

Let him fight Jones. I'll be more than happy about it.

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There's a tremendous difference between dominating hockey and dominating MMA, especially given the established state of the league when Gretzky did it, and the state of the MW division when Silva's reign began and now.

You would be better served to compare Silva to Howie Morenz.

You do realize that Rory probably represents the first athlete in the UFC who grew up training nothing but MMA, right?
Just because you think the division was weak doesn't mean that he isn't THAT good. You can choose to not give him that credit, but doesn't actually mean he's worse than what some people say.
You just want more proof basically.
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1.) There may be wrestlers with greater accolades, but we saw how accolades in amateur wrestling stack up to GSP when GSP fought Koscheck, Fitch, and Hughes. There is no one who more effectively implements a GNP game in the UFC than GSP.

2.) Based on the fact that these people were able to win rounds off Silva. They all made mistakes. GSP is capable of a perfect fight. What GSP needs to do is not get caught standing. Anderson simply will not submit GSP off his back. I see you've moved off your point that Anderson is better than GSP on the ground. "Oh ****, this guy actually knows grappling. I had to google Braulio..."
1) I don't think any of the guys you mentioned are better wrestlers than Sonnen or Hendo, and most importantly, they're not bigger than them or A.Silva.

2) According to GSP's own words he doesn't consider himself strong on the ground game, but I guess you know more than GSP about GSP. GSP was able to fight a perfect fight versus weaker wrestlers. He was also incapable of fighting a perfect fight versus Stand up artists. The point isn't that GSP can't fight a perfect fight, point is he has no choice but to do that if he wants to win.

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That makes absolutely no sense.
Sure, it did, but can't say I'm surprised it zoomed over your head.

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Yup.
Good.

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You'd never say as much, but we're not playing that game of "if I didn't say specifically those words, that's not what I meant."

You say that there's no game-plan to beat him. That's he's in another dimension compared to all other MMA fighters. I mean, unless you're a moron, which I haven't categorically ruled out, you have to realize that what you're saying is that the only way he loses is by the stochastic nature of the fight game.

It's silly.
Actually, I never said there was no game plan to beat A.Silva, maybe if you weren't busy trying to come up with lame insults you'd realize that.
I said GSP needs to do his usual quick jab, circle circle, leg shot, circle circle, shoot. Keep him down and lay mainly harmless but annoying punches without exposing himself to submissions. He needs to do that for 5 rounds.
I simply don't think he'll be able to do so. I think Silva is just too talented to let anybody impose their will without exposing themselves to any danger for 5 rounds.
Add that to the fact GSP would be fighting a much bigger opponent than he's used to. Because of all this, I have very little faith GSP would win. This has been my opinion since the start, it's been that since they entertained the idea of a match up actually.

And no, saying he's invincible is very precise. I don't think he's gonna lose to anybody in his division, if you think it was thin when he came in, you got Bisping at #2 right now so I can only imagine your thoughts. I don't think he'd lose versus GSP because, again, GSP needs to fight the perfect fight and I simply don't think he can do it versus Silva. Could he lose versus Jones though? Absolutely.

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12-11-2012, 02:24 PM
  #393
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I'm the fanboy. Sure. You do realize that my interlocutor here has actually said that the fact that Silva asked for 50% ownership of the UFC as the purse for fighting Jones is a sign of confidence.

Unbelievable.
When did I ever say that?
Proof please.

You're flat out inventing stuff now.

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12-11-2012, 02:26 PM
  #394
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Yeah Silva is untouchable.
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Did I say I was the only one?..
I was referring to the guys that debated against Silva over here, I'm sure you remember there was quite a few as you also partook in the debate and expressed the same opinion I did.
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and its quite obvious that your a GSP fanboy and your wearing those fancy rose colored goggles.
A Silva-Jones supermatch would be the best, way better than GSP. Vitor Belfort almost broke Jones's arm at UFC 152. Even if he dominated the match, Jones almost lost through a submission during the first round and said he would much rather have his arm broken than lose. Silva's spider like intelligence and agility vs Jones' athletism and wrestling, with some jiujistsu ! I'm sold.

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12-11-2012, 02:50 PM
  #395
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Silva can be beaten. Sonnen showed us exactly how he can be beaten.

You need a great grappler with excellent BJJ defense and the ability to stay alive long enough to get it to the ground.

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12-11-2012, 03:01 PM
  #396
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Josh Koscheck
Height: 5ft. 10
Reach: 73'

Jon Fitch
Height: 6ft.
Reach: 74'

Jake Shields
Height: 6ft.
Reach: 72'

Carlos Condit
Height: 6ft. 2
Weight: 76'

Georges St-Pierre
Height: 5ft. 10
Reach: 76'

Anderson Silva
Height: 6ft. 2
Reach: 77.6'

Anderson Silva having both the height and reach advantage means that GSP would have to close the distance standing up against a better stand-up fighter. He won't be able to rely on his jab, which was an important tool in his last fights. So how does he get Anderson Silva to the ground? Does he push forward like Sonnen did, or does he stand against Silva and mix combinations with takedown attemps?

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12-11-2012, 03:14 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by PhysicX View Post
Josh Koscheck
Height: 5ft. 10
Reach: 73'

Jon Fitch
Height: 6ft.
Reach: 74'

Jake Shields
Height: 6ft.
Reach: 72'

Carlos Condit
Height: 6ft. 2
Weight: 76'

Georges St-Pierre
Height: 5ft. 10
Reach: 76'

Anderson Silva
Height: 6ft. 2
Reach: 77.6'

Anderson Silva having both the height and reach advantage means that GSP would have to close the distance standing up against a better stand-up fighter. He won't be able to rely on his jab, which was an important tool in his last fights. So how does he get Anderson Silva to the ground? Does he push forward like Sonnen did, or does he stand against Silva and mix combinations with takedown attemps?
I think GSP can still rely on his jab because his foot work is remarkably fast. However, I also expect him to eat some punches because of it, especially seeing how it's one of Silva's strength (counterattack+precision).
If I recall correctly, reach is only measured from one hand to the other. Silva's legs are also very long, and they also help keep his opponents at bay.

I think the best way for GSP is to cycle, try to get in and out with fast jabs and perhaps leg kicks, and then rush (no pun intended) for the takedown. The longer the these guys stay up on their feet, the worse it is for GSP.

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12-11-2012, 03:15 PM
  #398
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Ducked? People ALWAYS say that the competition isn't always the best.
NEWSFLASH: When you destroy every one in your division and have the most title defenses with 16 fights all together, you're bound to get weaker opponents.
And you think that just because the opponents he destroyed are weak, which you're now admitting(yay progress), that doesn't affect his standing or legacy? That doesn't influence the hypothesis that he's somehow beyond everyone else.

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Also, I don't understand how you'd say this after you quoted yourself saying he's the best MMA fighter in history.
So he's the best fighter in history, but your point is that he's overrated? Great.
It's very simple. I say he's at the top of the list with Fedor and GSP filing in just below him. Dana and you and every other Silva knob shiner out there say that he's not even on the list. Like, that's actually what they said. Do you see how your logic here was incomplete and stupid?

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Let him fight Jones. I'll be more than happy about it.
And I suppose it's your opinion that Silva's not ducking by asking for half the UFC to fight jones?

Just a question, do you not think Mayweather was ducking, as well?


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Just because you think the division was weak doesn't mean that he isn't THAT good. You can choose to not give him that credit, but doesn't actually mean he's worse than what some people say.
You just want more proof basically.
Of course. He could be that good. But because the division was weak, and you agreed to that point, it goes further than your last statement.

The proof is insufficient.

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1) I don't think any of the guys you mentioned are better wrestlers than Sonnen or Hendo, and most importantly, they're not bigger than them or A.Silva.

2) According to GSP's own words he doesn't consider himself strong on the ground game, but I guess you know more than GSP about GSP. GSP was able to fight a perfect fight versus weaker wrestlers. He was also incapable of fighting a perfect fight versus Stand up artists. The point isn't that GSP can't fight a perfect fight, point is he has no choice but to do that if he wants to win.
1.) This will be my last reply to you because of **** like this. The point was that just because Hendo has an Olympic Silver, and Sonnen has a world university Silver that they're better at wrestling for MMA. Koscheck was a Division 1 national champion, and was simply outwrestled by GSP. Do you know why? Because GSP has integrated wrestling into MMA, and coupled it with BJJ ability that none of those guys have. But feel free to ignore this point, like you always have.

2.) According to Silva's own words, GSP, and BJ Penn are the greatest fighters of all time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Sure, it did, but can't say I'm surprised it zoomed over your head.
No, it was a pathetic attempt at ****-talk and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Actually, I never said there was no game plan to beat A.Silva, maybe if you weren't busy trying to come up with lame insults you'd realize that.
I said GSP needs to do his usual quick jab, circle circle, leg shot, circle circle, shoot. Keep him down and lay mainly harmless but annoying punches without exposing himself to submissions. He needs to do that for 5 rounds.
I simply don't think he'll be able to do so. I think Silva is just too talented to let anybody impose their will without exposing themselves to any danger for 5 rounds.
Add that to the fact GSP would be fighting a much bigger opponent than he's used to. Because of all this, I have very little faith GSP would win. This has been my opinion since the start, it's been that since they entertained the idea of a match up actually.
You think there's a game-plan, and that game plan seems to be exactly what I've advocated, you just don't think GSP can, even though you think he could. And even though all someone has to do is jab, circle, shoot, and not get submitted, you think that A. Silva is on some other list, beyond the other P4P GOATs.

Wow, you sure showed me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
And no, saying he's invincible is very precise. I don't think he's gonna lose to anybody in his division, if you think it was thin when he came in, you got Bisping at #2 right now so I can only imagine your thoughts. I don't think he'd lose versus GSP because, again, GSP needs to fight the perfect fight and I simply don't think he can do it versus Silva. Could he lose versus Jones though? Absolutely.
This is the ridiculousness of your opinion. You even agree with everything I said, but just say "he can't do it." He can. End of story.

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Old
12-11-2012, 03:22 PM
  #399
NotProkofievian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhysicX View Post
Josh Koscheck
Height: 5ft. 10
Reach: 73'

Jon Fitch
Height: 6ft.
Reach: 74'

Jake Shields
Height: 6ft.
Reach: 72'

Carlos Condit
Height: 6ft. 2
Weight: 76'

Georges St-Pierre
Height: 5ft. 10
Reach: 76'

Anderson Silva
Height: 6ft. 2
Reach: 77.6'

Anderson Silva having both the height and reach advantage means that GSP would have to close the distance standing up against a better stand-up fighter. He won't be able to rely on his jab, which was an important tool in his last fights. So how does he get Anderson Silva to the ground? Does he push forward like Sonnen did, or does he stand against Silva and mix combinations with takedown attemps?
Because you have a 1.5" longer reach(these reaches are measured finger tip to finger tip, btw) doesn't mean you can't be jabbed.

And FWIW, Dan Henderson is 5'11, and has a reach of 71". He was able to take him down and keep him there. He ****ed up in the second round. If I remember correctly he was even able to take him down in the second round, only, Hendo ****ed up in Silva's half-guard, gave up his back, and got choked out.

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Old
12-11-2012, 03:59 PM
  #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
Because you have a 1.5" longer reach(these reaches are measured finger tip to finger tip, btw) doesn't mean you can't be jabbed.

And FWIW, Dan Henderson is 5'11, and has a reach of 71". He was able to take him down and keep him there. He ****ed up in the second round. If I remember correctly he was even able to take him down in the second round, only, Hendo ****ed up in Silva's half-guard, gave up his back, and got choked out.
dude you lost all credibility after placing Silva below GSP in your all time fighters, dont you know by now most athletes usually throw flowers to there opponents. How many GSP fights have lefgft

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