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CBA Thread, Daniel Bryan Edition: The lockout is (tentatively) over!

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12-10-2012, 03:44 PM
  #451
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Originally Posted by mrzeigler View Post
I side with the players, but I think it's pretty ****ing pointless to argue about a labor issue ceaselessly online. There are several reasons why I side with players, but the latest one that annoys me is the shopping spree that NHL teams went on this past offseason, particularly in the three weeks leading up to the lockout. They handed out contracts with terms (either money or length) that made fans raise an eyebrow, and judging from reports, it's pretty damn clear that no NHL owner had any intention of agreeing to a CBA that didn't reduce the salary or length of those deals. From Puck Daddy:



If I were a player I would be pissed — imagine you are weighing a couple of job offers and you like the city that Offer A is in but you go with Offer B because the pay just makes so much more sense ... and then your new boss tells you he's cutting your pay and you can't quit or go work elsewhere — and if I were a competitive NHL owner or GM who lost in the UFA sweepstakes for a guy like Parise or Suter to a team that made a ludicrous contract offer it never expected to fullfill due to CBA revisions, I'd be pissed as well.

But to answer your question, perhaps it's because the Penguins ownership team — as presented by media, including the news organization that is a major sponsor of the team — is presented as being one of the more reasonable ownership groups and the one that was widely credited with being instrumental in the two days of progress last week.
One clarification, No owner is proposing to shorten or affect the length of already signed deals. The term limits will only apply to new contracts.

As for owners giving out huge contracts, owners and GM's had to operate in the confines and market set by the last CBA. The market basically dictated the value of great to elite players being highly expensive and long term deals. GM's are always going to get into a bidding war because it is their job to improve their team, and the richer teams drive prices up for everyone (including Nashville).

If you were a player, you would have been (or should have been at least) made well aware that this was coming, been as a result, negotiated huge signing bonuses and other forms of protection for yourself in the event of a lockout and CBA changes.

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12-10-2012, 05:04 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
It's not apples to oranges. It doesn't fit your anti-pa agenda, so you prefer to ignore it.

When you lift the blindfold off your eyes, you'll figure it out.

Also, don't ever think I worry about agreeing with you or the other PA bashers because unless you show me some real facts besides a lame article, I'm not seeing what your shoveling.
You contradict all that you want. Rambling about twentieth century NHL folk lore has no bearing on the stuff today. None. The players are not being treated badly as much too your dismay.


What if this were a NHLPA strike, are you gonna tell me they're are not gonna walk away from the counter offer if they don't like it or it's just a dressed up version of the same bs ones handed to them before?

There's an 8.0 billion dollar and more difference for the reason of disparity of the NHL to the NFL, but that doesn't seem to make a difference in pay scale.

From what I've taken from this thread, everything you're looking for is in the owners winning this, but you want the players to actually win out the day by having the owners cave.



I understand mrzeigler's plight, and ya I do feel they should be honored, but.....the NHLPA and the players knew what was coming before them and they knew the new CBA would effect it. How about adjusting it for the times coming? Pad it up.


No. lets blame the owners for the new CBA terms. Last I saw they were giving up actual dollars towards them. It's their (players) fault just the same.

That's business folks. Don't make the deal then.

Look around all the links, the threads, the news, jiggy, you miss it all in spite your eye's and ears.

This isn't an isolated incidence.

I do have it figured out, the players have too lock Donald Fehr in a closet cave on principle and the final negotiations will proceed to the promise land.

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Old
12-10-2012, 05:21 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by mrzeigler View Post
I side with the players, but I think it's pretty ****ing pointless to argue about a labor issue ceaselessly online. There are several reasons why I side with players, but the latest one that annoys me is the shopping spree that NHL teams went on this past offseason, particularly in the three weeks leading up to the lockout. They handed out contracts with terms (either money or length) that made fans raise an eyebrow, and judging from reports, it's pretty damn clear that no NHL owner had any intention of agreeing to a CBA that didn't reduce the salary or length of those deals. From Puck Daddy:



If I were a player I would be pissed — imagine you are weighing a couple of job offers and you like the city that Offer A is in but you go with Offer B because the pay just makes so much more sense ... and then your new boss tells you he's cutting your pay and you can't quit or go work elsewhere — and if I were a competitive NHL owner or GM who lost in the UFA sweepstakes for a guy like Parise or Suter to a team that made a ludicrous contract offer it never expected to fullfill due to CBA revisions, I'd be pissed as well.

But to answer your question, perhaps it's because the Penguins ownership team — as presented by media, including the news organization that is a major sponsor of the team — is presented as being one of the more reasonable ownership groups and the one that was widely credited with being instrumental in the two days of progress last week.
The fact that you're referencing Puck Daddy is probably not going to score you any points around here. Those idiots are ridiculously slanted towards the union.

And if the owners hadn't signed all those big money contracts, there would be cries of collusion from the players, particularly with regards to UFA contracts like Parise and Suter. And how pissed off do you think Crosby would be if the Pens had intentionally waited until after the lockout to extend him, knowing full well they wouldn't be able to offer very favorable terms under the new CBA. If anything, the fact that all these big money contracts were signed before the expiration of the old CBA should be seen as good faith gestures made by the owners. Especially considering how the owners have been bending over backwards trying to find ways to fully honor all these pre-existing contracts.

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12-10-2012, 05:33 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
No PR campaign should ever influence anyone with half a brain. It just comes down to simple logic, and logic is never wrong.

At some point, you see 12 people in the stands in Florida or Long Island and you understand that there are teams out there not making money.

You also look at guys like Troy Brouwer making 4M bucks as a reward for getting 33 points. I don't know how you look at a contract like that (and many like it) and not realize there's something really, really wrong here.

Oh, and you also look at the fact that the players will never, ever get the money back that they lost this year no matter how favorable a deal they MAY end up signing. Ironically, the reason they can hold out for so long just to prove a point is because they're already well compensated by those they're railing against.
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Here's the problem though.

None of US were around then way back when. Hell, the current owners weren't even around, and neither were the players. It's like asking country A to continue to feel responsible for atrocities committed against country B when EVERYONE involved is long gone and reparations have been paid in full.

It's not only history, it's ancient history and quite irrelevant to what's going on today. I guarantee you that a guy like Upshall, tweeting his beach pics doesn't give a **** about Lindsay or Howe, and what they did for him. ...

There is actually a difference between history and ANCIENT history. Bringing up that the players weren't allowed copies of their contracts when TODAY, even a healthy scratch player like Bisonnette gets every amenity under the sun in ADDITION to 500K a year is laughable.

Lot of good points here IMO.

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12-10-2012, 07:05 PM
  #455
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Burkle letter after meeting Fehr

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/stor...-hockey-strike


The idea to put players and owners together in the same room was a refreshing idea. Commissioner Bettman should be thanked for proposing it and the Fehrs should be thanked for agreeing to it.
The players came with a strong desire to get back to playing hockey.*They were professional and did a good job of expressing their concerns and listening to ours.

We wanted to move quickly and decisively. We have all spent too much time without any real progress at the expense of our fans, our sponsor and the communities we serve. It was time to make bold moves and get a deal.*Many people think we got over our skis and they are probably right, but we wanted to do everything we could to get back to hockey now. We didn't hold back.

We made substantial movement on our end quickly, but unfortunately that was not met with the same level of movement from the other side. The players asked us to be patient and keep working with them. It's not what they do and they wanted us to know they were committed. We understood and appreciated their situation. We came back with an aggressive commitment to pensions which we felt was well received. We needed a response on key items that were important to us, but we were optimistic that we were down to very few issues. I believe a deal was within reach.

We were therefore surprised when the Fehrs made a unilateral and "non-negotiable" decision — which is their right, to end the player/owner process that has moved us farther in two days than we moved at any time in the past months.

I want to thank the players involved for their hard work as we tried to reach a deal.
I hope that going backwards does not prevent a deal.

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Old
12-10-2012, 07:42 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
You contradict all that you want. Rambling about twentieth century NHL folk lore has no bearing on the stuff today. None. The players are not being treated badly as much too your dismay.
It has a bearing on why we are where we are at. If there was fair treatment by the owners back then, there would be no union. If the owners didn't go into cahoots with Eagleson, BG wouldn't have been brought in to replace him.

I'm sure you can connect the dots from there to see how this mess materialized. Trying to say one side has been worse than the other is flat out ********. Over the history of this league, both sides have done what is best for them. No side is innocent in this, like you want to claim.

Unlike you, I want what is fair for both sides. Since you have such an anti-pa slant, you read what you want and assume what fits into your agenda.

When both sides are happy, we have labor peace. Unfortunately, you can't see that. You think it is about one side getting their pound of flesh.

Quote:
What if this were a NHLPA strike, are you gonna tell me they're are not gonna walk away from the counter offer if they don't like it or it's just a dressed up version of the same bs ones handed to them before?

There's an 8.0 billion dollar and more difference for the reason of disparity of the NHL to the NFL, but that doesn't seem to make a difference in pay scale.

From what I've taken from this thread, everything you're looking for is in the owners winning this, but you want the players to actually win out the day by having the owners cave.
Once again your agenda to ignore facts and blindly support the owners is comical.

You were asked on several occasions what the differences would be if the owners gave another year or two on the contracts, given that they already gave 7 for re-signs and how this would have a big affect on their goals?

You conveniently rambled on with pro-owner rhetoric and avoided the question, not once, not twice, but three times.

It didn't fit your agenda to answer it.

Just because you fill your post with words, doesn't mean you are using any logic or facts to support your argument.

Quote:
No. lets blame the owners for the new CBA terms. Last I saw they were giving up actual dollars towards them. It's their (players) fault just the same.

That's business folks. Don't make the deal then.

Look around all the links, the threads, the news, jiggy, you miss it all in spite your eye's and ears.

This isn't an isolated incidence.

I do have it figured out, the players have too lock Donald Fehr in a closet cave on principle and the final negotiations will proceed to the promise land.
I have read and listened and watched. I don't get into group think and let majority opinions sway me from what I feel is right. I didn't do it when people lost their **** about missing out on AO and having half the board attack me for saying Malkin would be as good as him. I didn't do it when people fell for the Jagr trap and blew up on me for saying he didn't care about Pgh and would follow the money. I stuck by my opinion of Tangradi while the majority of people blasted him and still do.

I'm not swayed by popular opinion. I'm swayed by facts and reasoning. None of which you have been able to provide.

As far as the media goes, I've seen many people attack the league and the players. There is no side getting blasted more than the other. You again are only reading and seeing what you want, because of your anti-pa agenda.

I can't take your opinion seriously. Sorry.

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Old
12-11-2012, 08:38 AM
  #457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrzeigler View Post
I side with the players, but I think it's pretty ****ing pointless to argue about a labor issue ceaselessly online. There are several reasons why I side with players, but the latest one that annoys me is the shopping spree that NHL teams went on this past offseason, particularly in the three weeks leading up to the lockout. They handed out contracts with terms (either money or length) that made fans raise an eyebrow, and judging from reports, it's pretty damn clear that no NHL owner had any intention of agreeing to a CBA that didn't reduce the salary or length of those deals. From Puck Daddy:



If I were a player I would be pissed — imagine you are weighing a couple of job offers and you like the city that Offer A is in but you go with Offer B because the pay just makes so much more sense ... and then your new boss tells you he's cutting your pay and you can't quit or go work elsewhere — and if I were a competitive NHL owner or GM who lost in the UFA sweepstakes for a guy like Parise or Suter to a team that made a ludicrous contract offer it never expected to fullfill due to CBA revisions, I'd be pissed as well.

But to answer your question, perhaps it's because the Penguins ownership team — as presented by media, including the news organization that is a major sponsor of the team — is presented as being one of the more reasonable ownership groups and the one that was widely credited with being instrumental in the two days of progress last week.
I have seen this mentioned way too often. The owners are not just one entity, they're a collection of franchises, some doing better than others. In the past CBA there were non intended loopholes that allowed big market owners to throw a lot of money at players in a manner that the smaller market owners couldnt keep up with. The problem is because that was happening it became the market rate and what players expected. Therefore for all teams, even the small market teams to compete and re-sign their star franchise players they had to play by this system. The owners couldnt collude amongst themselves and keep salaries low, that would be something that the NHLPA would rightfully complain about and win. So what exactly are you upset with them about? Do you expect the big market teams who can afford it to not re-sign their star players in a manner that assures they stay with their team? Do you expect their GM to purposely tie his hands behind his back in free agency and not use all the tools at his disposal to get the player he wants? A rational person would say that they expect the owners to utilize all the tools available within the confines of the CBA to help their club win. That is the problem, the CBA allowed these clubs to set the market too high for the smaller markets to keep up in, that is the whole point of this lockout. The NHL see's the problem that you're complaining about and they're trying to fix it by structuring a new CBA which prevents it or at least does it's best to cut back on it. I am sure there will be new ways to exploit the new CBA but it certainly will be better than what exists now.

So maybe ask yourself as to why you get mad at the owners for trying to fix the problem from the last CBA but not the players who are fighting tooth and nail to perpetuate that system that is clearly broken?

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Old
12-11-2012, 09:41 AM
  #458
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I will say in reading the big argument here I agree with Jiggy that both sides have their share of blame in this year's mess (in particular). It started off very badly and way too late on account of the owners, who I believe intended to lock the players out all along, but did not expect it to go this far. Eventually they came around and ended up at the logical "half way points" to resolve contracting issues, without taking away another huge chunk of salary from the players... and it was at that point the players decided to let Fehr do the talking, and walked away like idiots (moving goal posts and all).

Put another way, if in October the NHL came back with a second offer that provided:

+ A mutually acceptable (revised) definition of HRR, where the players would go from 57% to 50% of that revenue pie over the next 2 or 3 years, then stay at 50% for the duration of an 8 or 10 year CBA.

+ No changes whatsoever to UFA or RFA eligibility rules

+ 5 year maximums for FA going to new teams, 7 years for existing teams

+ $300M in make whole money directly from the owners

+ Revenue sharing that was exactly what the players asked for

There would be a new CBA right now. This is all brinksmanship and games. But the PA didn't take the high road last week when some very decent owners came to the table to fix the problem created by *******s like Jacobs and Snider. No one was asking them to "sign the agreement without Don", so that whole line of reasoning is pure spin IMO. Not much respect at all for Hainsey in that stretch.

We're going to lose the season at this point so might as well start thinking about the lottery because it's all we have to look forward to.

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12-11-2012, 09:46 AM
  #459
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Ok crunch time. I expect this gets done by the end of the week. As a business decision, neither party has leverage enough to walk away insofar as the fact that money wise it is all there. The backlash at this point in time would not be worth a continued game of hardball. The PA is starting to ask questions. The owners are starting to wonder if that TV revenue and sponsorship money is worth throwing the dice and Don Fehr's influence is wanning.

I expect a deal in the next 3 or 4 days.

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12-11-2012, 10:20 AM
  #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
It started off... way too late on account of the owners...
Pardon me for cherry-picking one statement from a lengthy paragraph, but how do you justify this viewpoint? The owners have screwed up repeatedly throughout this process, but I thought it was pretty clear to everyone following this mess that Fehr is the reason it took so long for the negotiations to start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Put another way, if in October the NHL came back with a second offer that provided:

+ A mutually acceptable (revised) definition of HRR, where the players would go from 57% to 50% of that revenue pie over the next 2 or 3 years, then stay at 50% for the duration of an 8 or 10 year CBA.

+ No changes whatsoever to UFA or RFA eligibility rules

+ 5 year maximums for FA going to new teams, 7 years for existing teams

+ $300M in make whole money directly from the owners

+ Revenue sharing that was exactly what the players asked for

There would be a new CBA right now. This is all brinksmanship and games.
Sure about that? The players are just as guilty of "brinkmanship and games" as the owners are, and every time the owners have offered concessions, the players have turned around to see what else they can get (the "moving goalposts" analogy that is often brought up). The season may have started by now if the owners had made that offer earlier in the process, but I'm not entirely convinced the players wouldn't have pushed for a lot more before finally settling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
But the PA didn't take the high road last week when some very decent owners came to the table to fix the problem created by *******s like Jacobs and Snider. No one was asking them to "sign the agreement without Don", so that whole line of reasoning is pure spin IMO. Not much respect at all for Hainsey in that stretch.
In fairness, the owners didn't take the high road either. If you can look past the excessive (to put it diplomatically) rhetoric, Jiggy is right in saying that there's not that big of a difference on the owners' end between 5/7 year contracts and 8 year contracts. They could have negotiated further from that point rather than breaking off talks again.

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12-11-2012, 02:00 PM
  #461
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Don't blame the NHL lockout mess on Donald Fehr, who has always been a fighter

A short, good read for those who both support and loathe Don Fehr.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...hr-nhl-lockout

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12-11-2012, 02:30 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
I will say in reading the big argument here I agree with Jiggy that both sides have their share of blame in this year's mess (in particular). It started off very badly and way too late on account of the owners, who I believe intended to lock the players out all along, but did not expect it to go this far. Eventually they came around and ended up at the logical "half way points" to resolve contracting issues, without taking away another huge chunk of salary from the players... and it was at that point the players decided to let Fehr do the talking, and walked away like idiots (moving goal posts and all).

Put another way, if in October the NHL came back with a second offer that provided:

+ A mutually acceptable (revised) definition of HRR, where the players would go from 57% to 50% of that revenue pie over the next 2 or 3 years, then stay at 50% for the duration of an 8 or 10 year CBA.

+ No changes whatsoever to UFA or RFA eligibility rules

+ 5 year maximums for FA going to new teams, 7 years for existing teams

+ $300M in make whole money directly from the owners

+ Revenue sharing that was exactly what the players asked for

There would be a new CBA right now. This is all brinksmanship and games. But the PA didn't take the high road last week when some very decent owners came to the table to fix the problem created by *******s like Jacobs and Snider. No one was asking them to "sign the agreement without Don", so that whole line of reasoning is pure spin IMO. Not much respect at all for Hainsey in that stretch.

We're going to lose the season at this point so might as well start thinking about the lottery because it's all we have to look forward to.
When you study the history of NHL labor relations, it's insane how ****ed things have gotten. I finally saw the total amount of games missed due to labor strife since '93 and wanted to puke - 2200 games. I can't even wrap my head around that.

It's frustrating to hear people say what happened it the 50s and 60s is "ancient history", because it is all tied into where we are at now.

The owners were liars and cheats... The players finally had enough and formed the NHLPA with Eagleson as the ED. Eagleson was a total ******* and if anyone wants to read a fascinating, but disturbing book about what Eagleson pulled, check out "Game Misconduct" by Russ Conway.

Conway exposed Eagleson for collusion with the owners (to keep wages down), how he embezzled player pension funds, spent lavishly on the PA's dime, and was way too cozy with the owners and Ziegler.

The NHLPA brought in BG to replace Eagleson and he called a strike to show the owners he meant business. The owners caved and Bettman was brought in. They had the lockout in '95 and the owners caved again, which is why Bettman had the rules changed to give him the 3/4 rule. Under BG, player salaries escalated and players were strongly discouraged from taking anything but market value. Which is why Lemieux had problems with BG and the NHLPA when he came out of retirement and wanted to pay himself 5m.

The owners wanted BG out and did everything they could to get his union to turn on him, which they accomplished in '05. BG felt betrayed by the players and resigned.

The PA hired Kelly after outing Saskin (was alleged he was reading confidential player emails), but Lindros, Ference, etc felt he was getting too cozy with the owners, much like Eagleson did. I thought Kelly was being smart, but it is what it is. The PA didn't want another ED getting in the back pocket of the owners, so they brought in Fehr to battle Bettman. They basically stabbed Kelly in the back and had him voted out. The history of Eagleson had a lot to do with this decision, but they should never have pulled the **** they did.

This whole timeline is all connected and brought us to this ridiculous lockout. There is a long history of resentment from both sides and because of this, they have made a mockery of the league. They have to find a way to make peace, for the good of the game. There is no other way.

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12-11-2012, 02:39 PM
  #463
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Pardon me for cherry-picking one statement from a lengthy paragraph, but how do you justify this viewpoint? The owners have screwed up repeatedly throughout this process, but I thought it was pretty clear to everyone following this mess that Fehr is the reason it took so long for the negotiations to start.
The Owners hold the reigns. If they had publicly come out in March or whenever and said during a special CBA press event, "we're ready to start negotiating immediately to avoid any potential for work stoppages. The NHLPA no doubt has its agenda lined up, and we're ready to listen. We look forward to hearing from Mr. Fehr and the NHLPA very soon", it would've started in March. Fehr arrived 2010 and knew the game inside and out by that time, and if given a public invite, would not have ignored it. While Fehr was only too happy to wait (because he knew they were getting locked out too), it's incumbent upon the league leadership to get the ball rolling. Action starts from the top in any big organization.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IanMoranFanclub View Post
Sure about that? The players are just as guilty of "brinkmanship and games" as the owners are,
I think you misunderstand me. I am saying both sides are doing it, and last week it was the players whose games cost us a CBA and likely the season, when they have a very solid offer sitting in front of them. Very solid. Pretty much everything they could want in terms of major points. You don't balk at that stage to weasel your way into better terms for pensions, let's put it that way. Not if you're taking the process seriously and fans seriously. More than anything I take the PA move last week as a real "FU" to fans because it was completely avoidable and done over very small reasons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IanMoranFanclub View Post
In fairness, the owners didn't take the high road either.
In so far as letting Fehr get the better of them and changing their attitude, yes. That's true.

The bigger point of Jiggy's that I agree with is that there is no real leadership from Bettman. He's just another lawyer, basically. He's not looking at this from "hey if I get a handful of owners who are asking for something the others are not willing to die over, and it's going to drag this out another month, I have to think about ways to convince them it's not a good idea. I have to find a way to get this done." That's not his attitude. His attitude is "whatever the big market owners tell me, I will do, regardless of whether it will be helpful or divisive."

Yes the owners pay him but a good leader will call suspect ideas into question, whether they come from the people who write his paycheck or not. I truly believe Bettman will never question the big market bullies like Jacobs, Snider, et al. If they're united on something, Bettman will doggedly pursue that idea.


Last edited by Darth Vitale: 12-11-2012 at 02:45 PM.
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12-11-2012, 02:44 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by Wes C Addle View Post
A short, good read for those who both support and loathe Don Fehr.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...hr-nhl-lockout
This is a good read? I haven't even gotten to Fehr yet and it is so anti-owner it's absurd.

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12-11-2012, 02:48 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
This is a good read? I haven't even gotten to Fehr yet and it is so anti-owner it's absurd.
An old NPR hipster wrote it (just look at that profile pic), what else would you expect?

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12-11-2012, 02:51 PM
  #466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
When you study the history of NHL labor relations, it's insane how ****ed things have gotten. I finally saw the total amount of games missed due to labor strife since '93 and wanted to puke - 2200 games. I can't even wrap my head around that.

It's frustrating to hear people say what happened it the 50s and 60s is "ancient history", because it is all tied into where we are at now.

The owners were liars and cheats... The players finally had enough and formed the NHLPA with Eagleson as the ED. Eagleson was a total ******* and if anyone wants to read a fascinating, but disturbing book about what Eagleson pulled, check out "Game Misconduct" by Russ Conway.

Conway exposed Eagleson for collusion with the owners (to keep wages down), how he embezzled player pension funds, spent lavishly on the PA's dime, and was way too cozy with the owners and Ziegler.

The NHLPA brought in BG to replace Eagleson and he called a strike to show the owners he meant business. The owners caved and Bettman was brought in. They had the lockout in '95 and the owners caved again, which is why Bettman had the rules changed to give him the 3/4 rule. Under BG, player salaries escalated and players were strongly discouraged from taking anything but market value. Which is why Lemieux had problems with BG and the NHLPA when he came out of retirement and wanted to pay himself 5m.

The owners wanted BG out and did everything they could to get his union to turn on him, which they accomplished in '05. BG felt betrayed by the players and resigned.

The PA hired Kelly after outing Saskin (was alleged he was reading confidential player emails), but Lindros, Ference, etc felt he was getting too cozy with the owners, much like Eagleson did. I thought Kelly was being smart, but it is what it is. The PA didn't want another ED getting in the back pocket of the owners, so they brought in Fehr to battle Bettman. They basically stabbed Kelly in the back and had him voted out. The history of Eagleson had a lot to do with this decision, but they should never have pulled the **** they did.

This whole timeline is all connected and brought us to this ridiculous lockout. There is a long history of resentment from both sides and because of this, they have made a mockery of the league. They have to find a way to make peace, for the good of the game. There is no other way.
Good history lesson there, Jiggy. Thanks for sharing some of those details for those of us not aware of the old politics.

I tend to agree that the stain of certain events can leave an impression on an organization for a long time afterward. People aren't dumb (well, sometimes they are); they try to learn from history when setting an agenda for their organization. It would make sense given the problems with their PA directors that the players looked back over decades and decided they needed someone with no connection to the owners or sport to come in and play smash-mouth CBA.

Right about now though some of the more sensible players have to be wondering if they did a really stupid thing last week "waiting for more" and walking away. One thing that seems really petty in this series of talks is anytime someone from one side says "**** this I'm leaving", everyone gets up and leaves. Why doesn't anyone act like a freakin adult and say, "Hey he may be leaving but there are still 5 of you and 14 of us... **** it... let's keep going! What do we have to gain by stopping again this late in teh game?"


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12-11-2012, 02:56 PM
  #467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivek View Post
An old NPR hipster wrote it (just look at that profile pic), what else would you expect?
I am reading it now but based on the topic of one of his books, I wouldn't necessarily dismiss him as some type of shill. He seems to be the type who bucks trends not go along with a herd. But I'll read it and comment more after.

[OK the guy clearly has an anti-wealthy axe to grind... let's see where he goes with it. He's probably right about Ilitch though; Detroit needs renovation as a city way more than it needs a new hockey arena.]


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12-11-2012, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
I am reading it now but based on the topic of one of his books, I wouldn't necessarily dismiss him as some type of shill. He seems to be the type who bucks trends not go along with a herd. But I'll read it and comment more after.

[OK the guy clearly has an anti-wealthy axe to grind... let's see where he goes with it. He's probably right about Ilitch though; Detroit needs renovation as a city way more than it needs a new hockey arena.]
He doesn't go anywhere with it. I have no doubt many wealthy owners are trying to take take take, but this notion that the owners have taken everything from the players in the last deal and are going for the last "scraps" or however he phrased it is insane. Players' salaries have increased I believe 40% from the last CBA. Players certainly aren't hurting.

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12-11-2012, 03:04 PM
  #469
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This part I agree with 100%

Quote:
Fehr's hiring should have come as a surprise to approximately nobody, since a lockout is always a deliberate tactic by management aimed at achieving a precise goal — in this case, clawing back what little was left after the last time Bettman fastened on this strategy. Nobody is ever forced into a lockout. Lockouts require planning in advance. A lockout is a strategy you choose. A lockout always has a specific purpose, which is what makes lockouts unlike strikes. There is no such thing as a "wildcat" lockout.

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12-11-2012, 03:07 PM
  #470
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
This part I agree with 100%
It could do without the "clawing back what little was left" rhetoric. As I said above, NHL player's average salary increased something like 40%. I'd say there was plenty leftover.

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12-11-2012, 03:10 PM
  #471
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It could do without the "clawing back what little was left" rhetoric. As I said above, NHL player's average salary increased something like 40%. I'd say there was plenty leftover.
Yah I realized I included that and removed it. Rhetoric helps no one.

Looking at his hat I have to believe he is Rossi's idol. Not all bad, because even if he is pretty far left in his thinking he can at least write well. Maybe one day we'll look back on 20-something Rossi and laugh, seeing the genius writer he has become.

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12-11-2012, 03:20 PM
  #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Yah I realized I included that and removed it. Rhetoric helps no one.

Looking at his hat I have to believe he is Rossi's idol. Not all bad, because even if he is pretty far left in his thinking he can at least write well. Maybe one day we'll look back on 20-something Rossi and laugh, seeing the genius writer he has become.
Yeah definitely a solid writer and I agree with some of it. I just can't stand those exaggerated statements that seem to be in there just for effect. The overall tone of the article is pretty one sided and that's what I object with.

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12-11-2012, 03:37 PM
  #473
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Has anyone else just given up hope for a season? I wish they would get something worked out, but when you have 2 idiots in Fehr and Bettman running the show, nothing is coming out of that.

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12-11-2012, 04:23 PM
  #474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Good history lesson there, Jiggy. Thanks for sharing some of those details for those of us not aware of the old politics.

I tend to agree that the stain of certain events can leave an impression on an organization for a long time afterward. People aren't dumb (well, sometimes they are); they try to learn from history when setting an agenda for their organization. It would make sense given the problems with their PA directors that the players looked back over decades and decided they needed someone with no connection to the owners or sport to come in and play smash-mouth CBA.

Right about now though some of the more sensible players have to be wondering if they did a really stupid thing last week "waiting for more" and walking away. One thing that seems really petty in this series of talks is anytime someone from one side says "**** this I'm leaving", everyone gets up and leaves. Why doesn't anyone act like a freakin adult and say, "Hey he may be leaving but there are still 5 of you and 14 of us... **** it... let's keep going! What do we have to gain by stopping again this late in teh game?"
I wish Kelly had stayed on, because he was massaging egos. You catch more flys with honey, right? I get the worries about Kelly being in cahoots with the owners after the Eagleson reign of terror, but... I dunno, I think Lindros went about it the wrong way.

However, like I said before, the league has to deal with Fehr. It is reality. Just make the damn deal and get rid of him, before something really stupid happens...

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12-11-2012, 04:25 PM
  #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivek View Post
An old NPR hipster wrote it (just look at that profile pic), what else would you expect?
That sir, is hilarious, both in it's absurdity, and context.

I take it you're not familiar with the author?

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