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Lockout IV: One likes to believe in the freedom of hockey (Moderated: see post #2)

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Old
12-11-2012, 03:29 PM
  #326
Ernie
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Or they don't respect all their overlord bosses do for them.

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12-11-2012, 03:30 PM
  #327
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Are they meeting right now? I thought they werent meeting until tomorrow?

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12-11-2012, 03:30 PM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
So, since we set labor costs to the lowest common denominator, let's set ticket prices to the lowest common denominator
That would be nice but that's not how pricing works.....in ANY industry. Price is based on what people in any given area are willing to pay.

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12-11-2012, 03:30 PM
  #329
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When a business maximizes revenue and minimizes cost, they are to be lauded.

When a worker wants to maximize revenue and minimize cost (time spent working, effort given), they are lazy.
I don't think anyone has called the PA lazy.

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12-11-2012, 03:32 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
So, since we set labor costs to the lowest common denominator, let's set ticket prices to the lowest common denominator.

Everybody gets the Coyotes prices.
If the league was setting things to the lowest common denominator, the split would be around 37-42%. Clearly that's not the case.

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12-11-2012, 03:34 PM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
So, since we set labor costs to the lowest common denominator, let's set ticket prices to the lowest common denominator.

Everybody gets the Coyotes prices.
The only way to achieve that is going to be large scale fan protests and the big markets playing before empty arenas.
In other words....not gonna happen

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12-11-2012, 03:35 PM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Apply that same logic about a fan buying tickets to the NHL owner buying players' services.
Not sure exactly what you mean, but okay.

Nobody's forcing the fan to buy tickets and, if that fan personally thought that the return on investment (i.e. - enjoyment of the product) wasn't worth the cost, then said fan is more than free to stop buying tickets or vent his frustration at ownership/management/players on the ice. Complaining about the system as being responsible for that, however, when it is the same system that the other 29 teams play under and even flourishes under doesn't seem like a worthwhile use of one's energy, especially as it doesn't play a role in the ticket prices (does anybody really think that ticket prices would go down for Leafs and Habs games if they didn't have to share their revenues? Call me crazy, but if they're getting away with higher prices now, then being able to pocket more of that money is a pretty obvious move for them).

Now, if you're upset that teams x,y, and z can't spend their way to championships, well too bad. Enough of the league is in favor of a salary cap system that it's not going away, and teams like the Leafs and the Habs and the Rangers probably secretly are very happy that there's a guaranteed protection to their bottom line for not having to spend as much as they could and thereby cut their profits.

As for the part about an owner buying a player's services, same comes into place. Nobody's forcing anybody to spend as much as they do (other than teams that need that incentive to spend to the salary floor), and a lot of the high salaries are entirely a result of ownership distrust and fear that someone else with overpay for someone they want so they have to do it to. There's no easy way around this, other than illegal collusion, but the basic point is that owners want protection from themselves while players want the status quo where they can hold out a hat and happily catch money that other people throw at them.

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12-11-2012, 03:38 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
That would be nice but that's not how pricing works.....in ANY industry. Price is based on what people in any given area are willing to pay.
What do you think salaries are? They are prices.

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12-11-2012, 03:38 PM
  #334
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.... yepp. Thats pretty rich alrighty. I wonder who writes his material?
There's nothing wrong with his statement. Unless you create something out of it.

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12-11-2012, 03:39 PM
  #335
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There's nothing wrong with his statement. Unless you create something out of it.
His statement was fine. A nice change of pace from some of the foot-in-mouth stuff coming from other folks!

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12-11-2012, 03:40 PM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
What do you think salaries are? They are prices.
And the players who make those salaries are free to shop their services to any league in the world when they aren't under contract. So far the NHL is the only customer paying anywhere close to what they want.

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12-11-2012, 03:42 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by crazyforhockey View Post
one of the problems of smaller terms ie 5yrs

Is that your top players will sometimes take asmaller salary but with longer term......willing to get security at the expense of full value.
thereby you may get less hometown discounts on prime players due to a 5 ye limit or even a 7 ye limit
Um yeah, that's kind of the whole idea. The salary cap will be the "salary cap". Teams won't be able to be much above the cap in any given year.

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12-11-2012, 03:43 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Not sure exactly what you mean, but okay.

Nobody's forcing the fan to buy tickets and, if that fan personally thought that the return on investment (i.e. - enjoyment of the product) wasn't worth the cost, then said fan is more than free to stop buying tickets or vent his frustration at ownership/management/players on the ice. Complaining about the system as being responsible for that, however, when it is the same system that the other 29 teams play under and even flourishes under doesn't seem like a worthwhile use of one's energy, especially as it doesn't play a role in the ticket prices (does anybody really think that ticket prices would go down for Leafs and Habs games if they didn't have to share their revenues? Call me crazy, but if they're getting away with higher prices now, then being able to pocket more of that money is a pretty obvious move for them).

Now, if you're upset that teams x,y, and z can't spend their way to championships, well too bad. Enough of the league is in favor of a salary cap system that it's not going away, and teams like the Leafs and the Habs and the Rangers probably secretly are very happy that there's a guaranteed protection to their bottom line for not having to spend as much as they could and thereby cut their profits.

As for the part about an owner buying a player's services, same comes into place. Nobody's forcing anybody to spend as much as they do (other than teams that need that incentive to spend to the salary floor), and a lot of the high salaries are entirely a result of ownership distrust and fear that someone else with overpay for someone they want so they have to do it to. There's no easy way around this, other than illegal collusion, but the basic point is that owners want protection from themselves while players want the status quo where they can hold out a hat and happily catch money that other people throw at them.
Come on.

So it's OK if Toronto's market supports $300 tickets and Phoenix can't give away tickets. So the average Toronto fan has to pay an arm and leg to take his kids to a Leafs game. And a Coyotes fan can take his kids for a fraction of the cost.

Because the market says so.

But then we ignore the market that says Toronto can afford better players.

Like, I said, the owners want it both ways.

Big market fans are getting screwed out of hockey so fans of small market teams can pay 1/5th the ticket prices we pay and enjoy the exact same product we get.

And people think this is fair.


Last edited by RedWingsNow*: 12-11-2012 at 03:50 PM.
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12-11-2012, 03:46 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
And the players who make those salaries are free to shop their services to any league in the world when they aren't under contract. So far the NHL is the only customer paying anywhere close to what they want.
And fans are free to watch hockey anywhere else.

So what?

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Old
12-11-2012, 03:47 PM
  #340
Morgoth Bauglir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
And fans are free to watch hockey anywhere else.

So what?
So quit *****ing about ticket prices.

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12-11-2012, 03:48 PM
  #341
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The only way to achieve that is going to be large scale fan protests and the big markets playing before empty arenas.
In other words....not gonna happen
Exactly, because fans don't have a cabal, like the owners and players.

So the owners charge us what the market bears while crying shouldn't have to play the players what the market bears.

They want it both ways. I can't believe people are arguing this.

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12-11-2012, 03:49 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
So quit b1tching about ticket prices.
Quit crying about about poor market teams and how the owners need protection from themselves.

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12-11-2012, 03:50 PM
  #343
KINGS17
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Come on.

So it's OK if Toronto's market supports $300 tickets and Phoenix can't give away tickets. So the average Toronto fan has to pay an arm and leg to take his kids to a Leafs game. And a Coyotes fan can take his kids for a fraction of the cost.

Because the market says so.

But then we ignore the market that says Toronto can afford better players.

Like, I said, the owners want it both ways.

Big market fans are getting screwed out of hockey so fans of small market teams can pay 1/5th the ticket prices we pay and enjoy the exact same product we get.
Yes, it is ok for Toronto fans to pay more for tickets.

Yes, it is ok for the NHL to have it both ways.

Big market fans are not getting screwed. Their team's GM can compete on an level playing field with all of the other GMs. The NHL is a league where revenue is driven by the gate, not TV dollars. To get gate revenue, you have to ice a competitive team, or at least a team that the fans believe the organization is building to be competitive in the future.

Maybe Toronto fans should stop paying for their crap sandwich and not show up to the games if they don't like the ticket prices.

Alternate suggestions for you:

1) Move to Phoenix
2) Check the airfares to Phoenix

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Old
12-11-2012, 03:51 PM
  #344
Morgoth Bauglir
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Quote:
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Quit crying about about poor market teams and how the owners need protection from themselves.
Quit whinging about how sports leagues work. Better yet, lay off the all the "fight the power, stick-it-to-man" Marxist rhetoric and somebody somewhere might actually take you seriously.

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12-11-2012, 03:53 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Yes, it is ok for Toronto fans to pay more for tickets.

Yes, it is ok for the NHL to have it both ways.

Big market fans are not getting screwed. Their team's GM can compete on an level playing field with all of the other GMs. The NHL is a league where revenue is driven by the gate, not TV dollars. To get gate revenue, you have to ice a competitive team, or at least a team that the fans believe the organization is building to be competitive in the future.

Maybe Toronto fans should stop paying for their crap sandwich and not show up to the games if they don't like the ticket prices.

And I think if the Rangers owners want to pay to their players what they can afford, they should

And if Nashville doesn't want to pay their 3rd liners $4M a year, they should stop offering those contracts.

Once again, it's okay for you if owners benefit from the free market. But not the players.

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12-11-2012, 03:54 PM
  #346
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Quit whinging about how sports leagues work. Better yet, lay off the all the "fight the power, stick-it-to-man" Marxist rhetoric and somebody somewhere might actually take you seriously.
How in the hell is letting market work "Marxist" rhetoric???

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12-11-2012, 03:56 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Quit whinging about how sports leagues work. Better yet, lay off the all the "fight the power, stick-it-to-man" Marxist rhetoric and somebody somewhere might actually take you seriously.
Marxist? Take it NY Times or National Review, this is a hockey board. And the salary cap didn't become popular before massive expansion in all four leagues, go figure. In fact the NBA has a soft cap and still has problems. The NHL has a hard cap in problems.

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12-11-2012, 03:57 PM
  #348
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Marxist? Take it NY Times or National Review, this is a hockey board. And the salary cap didn't become popular before massive expansion in all four leagues, go figure. In fact the NBA has a soft cap and still has problems. The NHL has a hard cap in problems.
Salary caps became popular when free agency was instituted in the NFL and NBA. The two go hand in hand.

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12-11-2012, 03:58 PM
  #349
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And I think if the Rangers owners want to pay to their players what they can afford, they should

And if Nashville doesn't want to pay their 3rd liners $4M a year, they should stop offering those contracts.

Once again, it's okay for you if owners benefit from the free market. But not the players.
No, because the Rangers paying their players whatever they want hurts the ability of smaller franchises to ice a competitive team, thereby causing them to lose revenue.

The NHL is a single business operating 30 franchises. What is good for the smaller franchises must be considered in the equation.

The owners (the NHL) offers prices at what the market will bear in any given location (ever see the price of a Big Mac in Paris?).

As partners the owners have banded together to control labor costs and the NHLPA has willingly agreed to this arrangement.

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12-11-2012, 03:58 PM
  #350
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Sorry dude, but the inmates don't get to run the asylum.
How is it anti busines for him to see the wings take money they made and put it back into the wings. There is no law anywhere saying salary caps are essential to make a league work. Frankly, it funny you have the nerve to call Bob a marxist while support redistribution of profits from NY, Toronto, Philly, Chicago to other cities. I guess these words have no meaning anymore.


Last edited by Killion: 12-11-2012 at 04:08 PM.
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