HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Buffalo Sabres
Notices

All CBA talk. A deal? A deal!!!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-10-2012, 04:09 PM
  #401
OkimLom
Registered User
 
OkimLom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,228
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Anybody else feeling pretty much like they won't come back? I can't tell you how relieving it feels to not base my happiness on these clowns. To hear that Tyler Myers is injured and realize I. Don't. Give. A. ****.
If you're just a fan of the NHL or one of their teams, then I can see why people might not come back, but if people are fans of Hockey, they will be back.

I will be back because I love Hockey.

I'm just going to enjoy watching our prospects when I can, watch local area hockey and return once they resume playing. Until then, I'm just gonna go through my day and realize ANYTHING I could say or think, has NO AFFECT on when or if they agree to a deal, because how long have the fans been clamoring for them to fix only to wait longer. If either side cared what the fans wanted they would be mroe aggressive in their negotiations in reaching a deal.

OkimLom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 12:40 PM
  #402
SackTastic
Embrace The Suck
 
SackTastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 4,951
vCash: 500
Interesting Grantland piece on Fehr. Won't change your mind if you already hate the guy, but I thought it provided a different perspective.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...hr-nhl-lockout

SackTastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 12:52 PM
  #403
haseoke39
Brainfart 4 Reinhart
 
haseoke39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 5,495
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OkimLom View Post
If you're just a fan of the NHL or one of their teams, then I can see why people might not come back, but if people are fans of Hockey, they will be back.

I will be back because I love Hockey.

I'm just going to enjoy watching our prospects when I can, watch local area hockey and return once they resume playing. Until then, I'm just gonna go through my day and realize ANYTHING I could say or think, has NO AFFECT on when or if they agree to a deal, because how long have the fans been clamoring for them to fix only to wait longer. If either side cared what the fans wanted they would be mroe aggressive in their negotiations in reaching a deal.
I tend to think it's just the opposite. I love hockey, play hockey, and think that hockey shouldn't be about self-entitled ****** who I'd sooner punch than cheer for.

There was a time when sports weren't professional. Nothing wrong with disregarding the professional game. They don't own hockey.

haseoke39 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 01:05 PM
  #404
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,298
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Interesting Grantland piece on Fehr. Won't change your mind if you already hate the guy, but I thought it provided a different perspective.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...hr-nhl-lockout

In summary the owners are evil wealthy men trying to take all they can from everyone (the cities they are in, the players, etc).

But Fehr is heroically fighting for the working man.

How is this a different perspective?

The thing I find most comical is various writers and posters relentlessly trying to portray the players as typical union guys.

Fehr is doing what he was brought in to do. Defend the players in whatever way he feels is best. I have no issue with that.

joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 01:07 PM
  #405
SackTastic
Embrace The Suck
 
SackTastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 4,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
In summary the owners are evil wealthy men trying to take all they can from everyone (the cities they are in, the players, etc).

But Fehr is heroically fighting for the working man.

How is this a different perspective?

The thing I find most comical is various writers and posters relentlessly trying to portray the players as typical union guys.
See, you already hate the players and think the owners are angels who would never do anything underhanded financially, so of course this article wouldn't sway you.

SackTastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 01:22 PM
  #406
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,298
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
See, you already hate the players and think the owners are angels who would never do anything underhanded financially, so of course this article wouldn't sway you.
Actually I don't hate the players but keep trying to pin that on me.

I hate the hard liners in the PA. They resonate with me because of the damage hardliners in my union have done in negotiations with the city. The parallels are scary. Hold out we can do better. Pretty soon we'll have them right where we want them!!
My union is roughy the same size as the NHLPA and I know how hard it is to keep the majority well informed. It leads to small factions being able to hold a lot of sway since they are the conduits of info for the bulk of the body. And let's be honest, in unions this big the bulk of the body lets others do their thinking for them.

We got burned because of our hardliners and now were are back at the table and will get hammered even more. For the bulk of the players the current hang ups being argued over will not effect them. Yet they are being told to hang in their for their union brothers. Yet they will never see the benefits of holding out longer. They just keep losing pay. I feel bad for the bulk of the NHLPa membership.

I could post an incredibly lengthy breakdown of this but it will only piss me off. I'll just say unions aren't always the wonderful righteous entities you keep arguing they are.

joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 01:31 PM
  #407
SackTastic
Embrace The Suck
 
SackTastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 4,951
vCash: 500
I was more joking with that 'you hate players' jab.

I'm more anti-owner than pro-union to be honest. I've personally watched owners for the last 3 companies I've worked for (including present) do lots of shady, underhanded things to screw employees over, simply so they can make more money. Instead of adjusting business models to changing times, the mantra is to do anything possible to maintain profits. Instead of rewarding employees that have been paid under market value salaries because they believed in the business and wanted to help build it, those people get shown the door to save their salary. "We're losing money" actually means "we're not making the same money we used to".

I don't think unions are some great promised land. I do think in many cases they are necessary evils to counteract the underhandedness of owners and management.

SackTastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 01:37 PM
  #408
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,298
vCash: 500
And let me be clear. I'm not saying the NHLPA or my union are intentionally sticking it to members. I'm saying its easy in a bigger union for a small hardline group to have influence beyond their numbers.

joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 02:17 PM
  #409
Old Navy Goat
Registered User
 
Old Navy Goat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: San Antonio
Country: United States
Posts: 5,926
vCash: 500
Unlike JJ, I hate unions and the day my employees decide to become unionized is the day that I sell. Of course one of these days I might actually stop being an absentee owner except when I'm getting help with my cars from the mechanics.

My take from the article: Owners bad, evil people; unions are good, the bastion of rightfulness versus the owners malfeasance and Donald Fehr needs to be cannonized with solid gold busts of him adorning the entrance to every arena and lockerroom.

Old Navy Goat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 03:11 PM
  #410
Zip15
Registered User
 
Zip15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 16,949
vCash: 50
Quote:
CraigCustance @Craig Custance

Ryan Miller won't be part of the NHLPA negotiating team tomorrow. Was one of the key players in NY but focusing on training this week.
Wonder if he's training because he expects a deal may be relatively imminent. Perhaps those New Year's Eve opening night rumors have some legs.

Zip15 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 03:30 PM
  #411
struckbyaparkedcar
Zemgus Da Gawd
 
struckbyaparkedcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Country: Cote DIvoire
Posts: 10,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Interesting Grantland piece on Fehr. Won't change your mind if you already hate the guy, but I thought it provided a different perspective.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...hr-nhl-lockout
It's the epitome of every "pro player" perspective that's already out there, with just the right amount of mentioning the shady business practices of loudmouth owner X.

Honestly, I'm disappointed Fehr started grandstanding about **** that isn't going to change like the cap instead of playing the voice of reason to a cabal of crazy owners and their incompetent commish.

struckbyaparkedcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 03:36 PM
  #412
Crazy Tasty
Registered User
 
Crazy Tasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Indiana
Country: United States
Posts: 3,837
vCash: 500
I can't wait until this thread is locked.
I'd much rather be reading arguments over Ryan Miller's Eliteness.

Crazy Tasty is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 03:37 PM
  #413
HockeyH3aven
#Flynnsanity
 
HockeyH3aven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Buffalo NY
Country: United States
Posts: 6,200
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
Unlike JJ, I hate unions and the day my employees decide to become unionized is the day that I sell. Of course one of these days I might actually stop being an absentee owner except when I'm getting help with my cars from the mechanics.

My take from the article: Owners bad, evil people; unions are good, the bastion of rightfulness versus the owners malfeasance and Donald Fehr needs to be cannonized with solid gold busts of him adorning the entrance to every arena and lockerroom.
There is definitely a sweet spot. I don't think unions are always bad, and I also don't think owners who are anti-union are necessarily evil greedy ********.

That being said, I think the economic reality right now is that too much money is be funneled into a small group of already very wealthy people. The gap between the rich and the poor continues to grow, and that is a serious problem in society. While I am all for smart successful people being able to live a nice lifestyle (it gives regular people something to strive for), I am opposed to a system which also forces the employees of that company to live in poverty.

I think unions are a necessity in order to protect the rights of the the average working person, to ensure they can make a living and provide food for their family. Unfortunately, as unions age many of them become less about ensuring the well being of the members and more about company politics and "winning".

You also run into situations where employees are too "comfy" and a managing group may be unable to fire an employee who is detrimental to the company. You also find unions like the Chicago Teacher's Association or the Hostess workers whose demands and negotiating tactics are completely out of line with the economic reality of their situation.

/ rant

HockeyH3aven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 03:37 PM
  #414
HockeyH3aven
#Flynnsanity
 
HockeyH3aven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Buffalo NY
Country: United States
Posts: 6,200
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Tasty View Post
I can't wait until this thread is locked.
I'd much rather be reading arguments over Ryan Miller's Eliteness.
If you don't have something to add, feel free to not read or post.

HockeyH3aven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 03:54 PM
  #415
OkimLom
Registered User
 
OkimLom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,228
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I tend to think it's just the opposite. I love hockey, play hockey, and think that hockey shouldn't be about self-entitled ****** who I'd sooner punch than cheer for.
There was a time when sports weren't professional. Nothing wrong with disregarding the professional game. They don't own hockey.
But thats more on the "fan of a NHL team" side. You hate the "corportate" aspect of the Professional side of the League. What the players and owners are apart for, is the CAREER aspect of hockey, not the SPORT of hockey. If the players and owners were at odds because of offsides or something that has to do with the rules of the GAME of HOCKEY itself, then I can see if you were a fan of HOCKEY you might be angry and not want to return.

I was just getting at that people that love Hockey will be back. I think fans that are just fans of the Buffalo Sabres because they're from Buffalo will be back, but might have a slight drop in attendance.

I understand where you're coming from though.

IMO, some people can't separate the LIVES of the players and the SPORT the players play and those people will most likely be the loudest of Hockey detractors. Seriously, are Buffalo fans gonna stop cheering for Miller or Vanek because of this lockout? They might go a game or two before the boo birds are gone.

I think out of everybody, Bettman and Fehr are the ones that should be the ones ousted by the fans. They represent their sides and if they wanted to get this thing done they needed to be more aggressive in getting this thing done. Seemed to me when the players and owners had their meeting without these two, things were progressing pretty quickly, but as soon as these two got involved, it just cut the legs right underneath it all.

OkimLom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 04:15 PM
  #416
SackTastic
Embrace The Suck
 
SackTastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 4,951
vCash: 500
Bettman wants to crush the union at all costs. He's willing to give up a season to get there. He doesn't think the players gave up enough.

Fehr wants to protect the players at all costs. He's willing to give up a season to get there. He thinks the players already gave up too much.

It's a bad combination of ideals and personalities.

SackTastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 08:45 PM
  #417
Jame
Dream '16
 
Jame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Pitcairn Islands
Posts: 33,166
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Interesting Grantland piece on Fehr. Won't change your mind if you already hate the guy, but I thought it provided a different perspective.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...hr-nhl-lockout
good article.
sums up my position very well.

Jame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2012, 08:49 PM
  #418
Jame
Dream '16
 
Jame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Pitcairn Islands
Posts: 33,166
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
In summary the owners are evil wealthy men trying to take all they can from everyone (the cities they are in, the players, etc).

But Fehr is heroically fighting for the working man.

How is this a different perspective?

The thing I find most comical is various writers and posters relentlessly trying to portray the players as typical union guys.

Fehr is doing what he was brought in to do. Defend the players in whatever way he feels is best. I have no issue with that.
"now watch as I use my typical union experience as the backdrop for my argument"

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Actually I don't hate the players but keep trying to pin that on me.

I hate the hard liners in the PA. They resonate with me because of the damage hardliners in my union have done in negotiations with the city. The parallels are scary. Hold out we can do better. Pretty soon we'll have them right where we want them!!
My union is roughy the same size as the NHLPA and I know how hard it is to keep the majority well informed. It leads to small factions being able to hold a lot of sway since they are the conduits of info for the bulk of the body. And let's be honest, in unions this big the bulk of the body lets others do their thinking for them.

We got burned because of our hardliners and now were are back at the table and will get hammered even more. For the bulk of the players the current hang ups being argued over will not effect them. Yet they are being told to hang in their for their union brothers. Yet they will never see the benefits of holding out longer. They just keep losing pay. I feel bad for the bulk of the NHLPa membership.

I could post an incredibly lengthy breakdown of this but it will only piss me off. I'll just say unions aren't always the wonderful righteous entities you keep arguing they are.

Jame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-12-2012, 08:53 AM
  #419
hizzoner
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 643
vCash: 500
As somebody who has been on both sides--my own business and as negotiator for a group bigger than the NHLPA I think unions are needed-just like lawyers. Workers need someone to represent their common interests and ownership has to realize that a happy worker with a living wage is a good asset. Grantland hits out at owners for getting sweetheart deals on arenas etc....-he is right. The Phoenix situation is an economic tragedy for the people of Glendale but do not blame the nhl for being ready to take the money--after all the players are in no rush to reject outrageous money thrown at them either--indeed many on this board blame ownership for offering it. The Maple Leafs and the Montreal Canadians built and paid for their own arenas and their franchises are more valuable as reflected in Forbes valuations--For decades the players were defrauded, abused and treated like dirt. Eventually the pendelum swung the other way--now the players have the economic upper hand as far as share of revenue. This lockout is over how to keep more money in the hands of those who have to pay to keep the teams going. Simply put if there are teams not making money on their investments despite as Grantland points out, massive support from local and state governments, then a methodology to assure this is needed. The Leaf ownership vis-a-vis Phoenix, Florida, Tampa, Columbus, has as much right to their profits as Crosby has to his salary compared to Fred Fourthliner. I miss Sabres hockey--and it is the team not the individual players that I root for. Quite frankly there is no Perreault, Housely, LaFontaine or Hasek to bring me to my feet--or maybe it is just my arthritis!

hizzoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-12-2012, 02:08 PM
  #420
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,298
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
"now watch as I use my typical union experience as the backdrop for my argument"
Now watch how Jame either does not understand the differences between those two points or intentionally ignores them because he misses arguing with me.

1. With the first part you bolded I'm talking about the ECONOMIC situation that typical union workers are in. When they get into labor disputes they are usually trying to protect their jobs, get meager wage increases or fighting to not have to pay more for their health insurance, etc. The outcome of those battles impact their daily lives quite dramatically. The NHLPA members are not in a similar situation economically. They won't be sweating out mortgage payments, car payments or paying medical bills due to this labor battle or its eventual outcome. They've made enough money to not get paid for at least a year to fight with the NHL. They will continue to make a lot of money regardless of how this turns out.

The current NHLPA/NHL battle is a between a group of wealthy players fighting with a group of incredibly wealthy owners over a giant pile of money. From an ECONOMIC pov they have nothing in common with a typical union worker.

2. The second bolded portion is about the inner workings of a union organization of 700 or so members and has nothing to do with economics.

joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-12-2012, 02:18 PM
  #421
SackTastic
Embrace The Suck
 
SackTastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 4,951
vCash: 500
So, in essence, you're saying that once an individual reaches a certain level of income, they should lose their rights to collective bargaining?

SackTastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-12-2012, 02:44 PM
  #422
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,298
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
So, in essence, you're saying that once an individual reaches a certain level of income, they should lose their rights to collective bargaining?
Where did I say that?

I'm saying NHLPA members are losing money they'll never get back because of this work stoppage regardless of who is at fault for it. Arguing over who is at fault won't return the 40+% of salary lost to the players. At some point this turns into cutting off your nose to spite your face.

You also have to keep in mind that to understand my perspective and dislike of the hardliners you need to go all the way back to 2009. Thats when they led the coup to get rid of Paul Kelly. They wanted a battle with the NHL and a union head that would be representive of that mentality of confrontation. They didn't like that Kelly had a good working relationship with Bettman. They felt he would sell them out. The "they" in this case would be the hardliners, not the bulk of the rank and file NHLPA members. Most of whom were shocked by Kelly's ouster. The NHLPA still hasn't released the report on Kelly's ouster.

What we see today in the battle between the NHLPA and NHL starting taking shape back when Kelly was ousted and the players chose the confrontational path. With the NHLPA taking an early shot by turning down the realignment the NHL came up with.


The players went along back then with what happened to Kelly even though the bulk of them have no idea why Kelly was ousted (that still holds true today). The players don't seem to understand that the current impasse is due in large part to the owners reacting to what happened back then. The owners knew from the get go what Kelly's ouster and Fehr's hiring meant for CBA talks. So they went aggressive and confrontational as well.

For me the players forfeited sympathy after that shameful and underhanded debacle that ousted Kelly. A group of corrupt ******** ousted Kelly and the bulk of the membership did nothing but watch. Sometimes you reap what you sow.

Would things have been better for all involved if Kelly remained as NHLPA head? Would Kelly's strong working relationship with Bettman led to a solution well before it got to this? Unfortunately we'll never know.


Last edited by joshjull: 12-12-2012 at 02:54 PM.
joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-12-2012, 03:44 PM
  #423
Sabresfansince1980
Registered User
 
Sabresfansince1980's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: from Wheatfield, NY
Country: Germany
Posts: 2,599
vCash: 500
Some unknown % of the NHLPA is reaping what they sow for that mess. OTOH, the NHL is reaping what was sown after they bulldozed the NHLPA in 2005. They really either were unfazed by or underestimated the emotional factor that led to the confrontational stance the NHLPA has now taken. I would be waiting for the NHLPA to sign a new CBA that basically knocked down HRR on a gradual scale, but I think they're justified in holding strong on contractual rights. Trying to snip down contract length to five years is a very artificial way to try and reduce costs/risk that includes unfair and possibly unintended consequences. Getting the salary cap more in line with the owners share of HRR (ie lowering the cap) is the right/proper/accurate solution. If the owners stayed on this track I think there might be a deal by now.

Sabresfansince1980 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 12:47 PM
  #424
WhoIsJimBob
Circle the Bandwagon
 
WhoIsJimBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Rochester, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 15,510
vCash: 500
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...6933--nhl.html

Mark Cuban with an interesting take on the NHL CBA.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...1197--nhl.html

And then the usual take on the southern strategy not working...

WhoIsJimBob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2012, 01:30 PM
  #425
Crazy Tasty
Registered User
 
Crazy Tasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Indiana
Country: United States
Posts: 3,837
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LegomyLeggio View Post
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...6933--nhl.html

Mark Cuban with an interesting take on the NHL CBA.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...1197--nhl.html

And then the usual take on the southern strategy not working...
He makes some good points in regards to the salary cap.
If the current cap structure stays in place, the revenue sharing portion needs a major overhaul.


Side note - He's one of the biggest d-bags I have ever met.

Crazy Tasty is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:39 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.