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v.23: The Return of Kyle Lowry

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Old
12-11-2012, 01:19 AM
  #526
socratic
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Originally Posted by Eytinge View Post
What team would accept any package we could make for Wiggins? He's seen as a franchise blue chip talent by a lot of scouts. You don't give that up for any package from the Raptors.

Also, the NBA seems to love a good story at the draft. What better way for Stern to repay us then by giving us an amazing prospect that just so happens to be from Toronto?
You don't give up a Blue chipper for guys from the current raptors, but any playoff team could sell their top end for a high draft pick. And what exactly would Stern be repaying us for? Setting Attendance Record lows throughout the league on all our roadgames?

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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
He's definitely not greg oden, who I believe was injury prone prior to the draft and was a massive Centre, alot of 7 footers have knee problems, Wiggins is about 6'7.

Anyway regardless, I'm looking at this team, how does it become a winner in it's current state? we dont have high value pieces to actually make a solid trade to become a contender. Most rumors I hear are for Pau Gasol, a guy who is having knee problems himself.

Trade off everyone we dont need long term by the end of the season, we're gonna be tanking next year whether you like it or not. Unless we do the idiotic thing and sell for veterans and we basically finish in 8th spot for a few years.

Getting a guy like Noel in this draft(or even just losing the pick) and then picking up Wiggins or any of the other high end players in the deepish draft next year would be huge for the franchise.
My point was that anyone can be a bust. Wiggins hasn't even picked a post-secondary school yet as far as I know. It's insane to ask your team to suck for another 142 games. Lebron James has a 9 year old son, should we start tanking to set ourselves up well for the 2020 Draft?

We could literally lose the next 142 games straight, and based on lottery results, get some role-playing 3rd overall pick in this years draft, and then watch OKC draft 3rd overall with our pick next year, leaving us with ZERO to show for 142 lost games in a row.



Despite our troubles, our team is not nearly as bad as their record indicates. I think they need some sudden, swift, and drastic changes, but they have good pieces and will win games. Eventually...

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12-11-2012, 01:26 AM
  #527
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Not disagreeing, just most guys highly touted like him this early usually live up to potential(I.E D-rose, dwight howard, Lebron etc.)

We do have talent, but this season is already a wash, they aren't going to bounce back from this now, the momentum is lost and you can tell they just arent playing hard. Earlier on the games were close, now 2 out of every 3 games we're losing by at least 10 or so. The players are in a pretty negative state of mind.

Not to mention injury, looks like we just like Bargn for a bit and Lowry, you're not gonna win alot of games with a backup PG, mid-level SF, and a rookie C.



This team may be a bit below where they should be, but because of where they are now, it's time to part ways with the talent(i.E Bargnani, cald) get some young solid pieces from those trades and start tanking.

Does it mean losing alot of games? yes, but seriously, without Calderon and Bargnani, how many games are we really gonna win? Because those two will be gone very soon, and most trade rumors do not have us getting an amazing replacement coming back.

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12-11-2012, 01:31 AM
  #528
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Even if we finish with the worst record next year, we will only have a 25% chance at Wiggins. In my ideal world, we tank and get Shabazz this year and trade for Gasol in the off-season.

Lowry
Derozan
Shabazz
Gasol
Valancunias

I like that line-up a lot for next year.

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Old
12-11-2012, 01:35 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Hemskyfanboy83 View Post
Even if we finish with the worst record next year, we will only have a 25% chance at Wiggins. In my ideal world, we tank and get Shabazz this year and trade for Gasol in the off-season.

Lowry
Derozan
Shabazz
Gasol
Valancunias

I like that line-up a lot for next year.
Gasol will bring us nothing but mediocrity for the next couple years.

He's already having problems with his knees, he's 32 going on 33 and has already won a ring.

Shabazz wont be ready, val will be getting better but wont be ready. That line up will bring us nothing but a 9th-10th place finish. And then 2-3 years from now when gasol leaves/retires/gets traded/starts to suck, we'll be wondering why we didnt just tank and pick up someone good.

we dont necessarily have to get wiggins, it's a deep draft supposedly, so a high pick period next year is huge.

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12-11-2012, 04:28 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by socratic View Post
You don't give up a Blue chipper for guys from the current raptors, but any playoff team could sell their top end for a high draft pick. And what exactly would Stern be repaying us for? Setting Attendance Record lows throughout the league on all our roadgames?



My point was that anyone can be a bust. Wiggins hasn't even picked a post-secondary school yet as far as I know. It's insane to ask your team to suck for another 142 games. Lebron James has a 9 year old son, should we start tanking to set ourselves up well for the 2020 Draft?

We could literally lose the next 142 games straight, and based on lottery results, get some role-playing 3rd overall pick in this years draft, and then watch OKC draft 3rd overall with our pick next year, leaving us with ZERO to show for 142 lost games in a row.



Despite our troubles, our team is not nearly as bad as their record indicates. I think they need some sudden, swift, and drastic changes, but they have good pieces and will win games. Eventually...
Sorry but I'm not as optimistic as you are. The raptors have decent pieces not good ones. We haven't been bad enough to get a #1 pick. Does this team need changes yep but I'd be willing to tank this year and next to get Wiggins. He is a player this franchise hasn't seen since maybe Vince
Carer..maybe. Wiggins could be better IMO. Sure he could bust but I really doubt that. His raw talent is obvious he just needs the proper coaches to enhance that. I'll say this right now, Wiggins is a generational talent. We're talking Lebron-esque. A 6ft 7 17 year old who can jump out the gym, his dunks are mean and nasty, explosive bursts. Has great basketball IQ for his age very high. The one thing Lebron has over Wiggins his is natural physique. Wiggins is a bit lanky which is natural considering his age. Lebron was a man at 17.

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12-11-2012, 08:32 AM
  #531
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The talk about Wiggins has to stop. There's 60 games left this season, the NBA draft and free agency. Then you have another 82 game season. Are we going to have to listen to Wiggins talk over the next 142 games until June 2014? You can't tank for the next 2 years in hopes of getting Wiggins. Heck the Bobcats were all but tanking but now they are winning games. Ownership and the fan base beyond this forum would never accept tanking for 2 years down the road.

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12-11-2012, 09:05 AM
  #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
the problem with the pick is follows:

this year they can take it if it's between 4-14th pick, next year 3-14th all the way until 2018 where it's completely unprotected.

problem with this? If we get top 3 this year, and then next year in a stronger draft, we get say the 3rd pick, OKC would instantly get an amazing player and we'd get nothing, as Lowry will probably be leaving anyway.
Of all the stupid contracts, signings and other things done by BC, at least he managed to do that right. It's the one thing BC could have actually told Brian Burke to do, since he didn't have enough common sense to do it himself.

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12-11-2012, 09:37 AM
  #533
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Of all the stupid contracts, signings and other things done by BC, at least he managed to do that right. It's the one thing BC could have actually told Brian Burke to do, since he didn't have enough common sense to do it himself.
Protected lottery picks are almost a given when first rounders are traded in the NBA, and are very rarely used in the NHL. While a protected pick in the trade for you know who would have been nice, comparing the NBA to the NHL in this respect doesn't make a ton of sense.

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12-11-2012, 09:42 AM
  #534
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Originally Posted by Transplanted Caper View Post
Protected lottery picks are almost a given when first rounders are traded in the NBA, and are very rarely used in the NHL. While a protected pick in the trade for you know who would have been nice, comparing the NBA to the NHL in this respect doesn't make a ton of sense.
Yea I know they hardly get used to the same extent, the drafts are a lot different in both sports (Basketball the players can come in and be top contributors right away or just play right away, hockey they usually take a few years). But they have been in recent years for trading of star players (Kovalchuk, and Jeff Carter deal).

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12-11-2012, 10:32 AM
  #535
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Colangelo needs to go before Casey. Colangelo hasn't earned the right to fire another coach.
This, times about a million.

You don't get another chance to rebuild without at least winning once first.

We probably have one of the lowest talent levels out there in the NBA (bottom 5 for sure), our cap situation isn't exactly great (bad deals to Bargs, Calderon, Fields etc), and worst of all we are a bad team who currently doesn't have our 1st Rd Pick so there is a chance we could be letting the Thunder draft top 10.

This team is poorly managed from an asset point of view and I think it is time to fully admit that BC is NOT the man for this job. People get on Burke's case, but at least I can see a framework for a potential contender with good you pieces. BC has assembled a lot of garbage and that's about it.

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12-11-2012, 10:34 AM
  #536
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This, times about a million.

You don't get another chance to rebuild without at least winning once first.

We probably have one of the lowest talent levels out there in the NBA (bottom 5 for sure), our cap situation isn't exactly great (bad deals to Bargs, Calderon, Fields etc), and worst of all we are a bad team who currently doesn't have our 1st Rd Pick so there is a chance we could be letting the Thunder draft top 10.

This team is poorly managed from an asset point of view and I think it is time to fully admit that BC is NOT the man for this job. People get on Burke's case, but at least I can see a framework for a potential contender with good you pieces. BC has assembled a lot of garbage and that's about it.
It doesn't matter what happens any year. This pick is a lottery pick. If the Raptors make the playoffs, they don't get the pick either. It's a guarantee'd lottery pick but 1 or 2 protected. It's not 15 or lower or whatever it is. It doesn't matter. This is the best year for us to suck and give them our pick. This draft isn't that good, let's hope we don't get #2 or #1 and that they get #5.

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12-11-2012, 11:23 AM
  #537
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What a brutal season Nash is having. Now he's not suppose to return until the end of December. If the Lakers stick to their word, which was holding on to Gasol until they get a look at the team with everyone healthy, then this will delay the possible Gasol trade. I don't want Gasol as I feel he makes no sense for us at this point (only would want him if we were a contender), but I was hoping we'd see a three-way deal between us, the Lakers and some other team where we get some young talent back.

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12-11-2012, 11:41 AM
  #538
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
The talk about Wiggins has to stop. There's 60 games left this season, the NBA draft and free agency. Then you have another 82 game season. Are we going to have to listen to Wiggins talk over the next 142 games until June 2014? You can't tank for the next 2 years in hopes of getting Wiggins. Heck the Bobcats were all but tanking but now they are winning games. Ownership and the fan base beyond this forum would never accept tanking for 2 years down the road.
LOL they don't have to accept tanking, they are right now and they're trying their best! These guys are their own enemy. They couldn't tank as well as they are even if they tried. This team is beyond pathetic. You think this team is going to be any better next season? We'll see, but man moves have to be made if that is going to happen.

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Old
12-11-2012, 12:34 PM
  #539
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BTW saw this from BlogTO and thought it summed his moves up perfectly

Quote:
I just want people to realize how stupid this guy is.

Draft Picks:
2006
#1 – Andrea Bargnani
Passed On – LaMarcus Aldridge, Brandon Roy, Rudy Gay, Rajon Rondo
Notes: A mediocre first overall pick. At 7 feet, he averages 5.5 rpg and 19.5 ppg. Six years of patients, and I would trade him in a heartbeat. More people were shocked by this pick than the Terrence Ross selection this year lol.

2008
#17 – Roy Hibbert (Traded for Jermane O’Neil)
Notes: It was a good pick, but we traded it for an old injury prone player who we traded later that season

2009
#9 - DeMar DeRozan
Passed On – Brandon Jennings
Notes: DeMar DeRozan was a good selection, but Jennings would have been the better pick

2010
#13 – Ed Davis
Notes: Good Pick

2011
#5 – Jonas Valanciunas
Passed On – Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker, Jimmer Fredette, Klay Thompson
Notes: That year we needed a guard because Caldron wasn’t cutting it. We picked Jonas because he was an international and had a lot of international hype. I cant say anything because he hasn’t played yet, but what I do know is anyone that’s really good in Euro is average in the NBA because the skill level is so much greater. Jonas plays against a lower skill level.

2012
#8 – Terrence Ross
Passed On – Andre Drummond, Austin Rivers, Jeremy Lamb
Notes: In the top ten you take the best available players. Andre Drummond was the best available player. Jeremy Lamb was the best fit for the Raptors at shooting guard, which we needed. Austin Rivers would have been a good pick as well. But we chose Terrence Ross, projected 17th pick by ESPN. Even he was surprised along with everyone else he got picked so early. Easily the nail in Bryan Colangelo’s coffin.



Significant Moves:

2006-2007
Raptors: TJ Ford
Bucks: Charlie Villanueva (Rookie of the Year runner up)

Raptors: Juan Dixon (who?)
Portland: Fred Jones (Who Bryan signed earlier that year)

2007-2008
Raptors: Primoz Brezec (Again… who?)
Detroit: Juan Dixon (Again, Bryan aquired him the previous year)

2008-2009
Raptors: Jermaine O’Neil and Nathan Jawai
Indiana: TJ Ford, Maceo Baston, Radoslav Nesterovic, and Roy Hibbert
Notes: By far Bryan Colangelo’s dumbest move. Traded TJ Ford (Who he gave up R.O.Y. runner up Charlie V. for) and Roy Hibbert (who just received a max contract offer from Portland) for a old, injury prone, Jermaine O’Neil (who was later traded that year)

Raptors: Shawn Marion, Marcus Banks
Heat: Jermaine O’Neil, Jamario Moon, and Future first round pick
Notes: We just traded for O’Neil, and now we give up a first round pick for Shawn Marion who we trade the next season.

2009-2010
Raptors: Turkoglu
Orlando: Cash
Notes: Took on his massive contract because he’s Euro and traded Turkoglu the next season because he was a bust.

2010-2011
Raptors: two 2011 first round picks
Heat: Chris Bosh
Notes: Really? Two first round picks in 2011 for our star player? Really? I don’t know what happened to the second pick we got, but we traded one that was 28th overall. We got screwed hard. Thank you BC.

Raptors: Leandro Barbosa, Dwayne Jones
Suns: Hedo Turkoglu
Notes: We traded Barbosa the next season, and waived Jones a few month later.

Raptors: Jerryd Bayless, Peja Stojakovic
Hornests: Jerret Jack, Marcus Banks, David Andersen
Notes: So happy to be a raptors fan … We waived Peja a few months later

2011-2012

Raptors: Second Round Pick, Cash
Indian: Barbosa
Notes: No comment.

2012-2013

Draft: Terrence Ross
Notes: Don’t even get me started.

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Old
12-11-2012, 12:51 PM
  #540
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12-11-2012, 12:58 PM
  #541
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
BTW saw this from BlogTO and thought it summed his moves up perfectly:
I 100% think it's time for BC to go, but this is a horribly biased summary of his moves.


2006 - You think if the celtics drafted first overall that year they would have picked Rondo? Bargnani was a heavy favourite in a weak draft.


2008 - I still hate BC for trading Hibbert. This was a stupid thing to do and could have spelled his end right there.


2009 - Derozan was a steal at #9. Great draft choice.

2010 - Ed Davis - Amazing pick at 13.

2011 - In the next comment this blogger goes on to say that "In the top ten you take the best available players". End of discussion. Valuncius was the best available player.

2012 - It's early, but I think Ross was a dumb move.


Half of the "Significant Moves" mentioned in the blog aren't at all significant, and none of his good moves are mentioned. If you actually want a good breakdown of BC's History, start here: http://raptorsrepublic.com/2011/07/1...trades-part-i/

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12-11-2012, 01:31 PM
  #542
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It's clear to me that Bryan Colangelo needs to go. As does Andrea Bargnani. This team needs a proper ****ing rebuild with new management.

And as much as I think Casey is a good "teacher" I don't think it necessarily means he's a good head "coach" in the NBA..if that makes any sense. I remember Raps fans being warned about his absolutely baffling substitutions/rotation management, but I didn't think it was THIS bad.

This team is clearly mailing it in. No heart, except for a few players. We're not ready for games, and I think it's both the players and coaching staffs fault. And quite simply, there's not enough ****ing talent. It absolutely blows my mind that BC says this ISN'T a talent issue. Are you serious?

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12-11-2012, 01:49 PM
  #543
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How long does Amir get suspended?

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12-11-2012, 03:09 PM
  #544
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I actually think Barbosa played well here, but I can't say much about the other players BC has acquired.

Like I said... Grunwald>>>Colangelo. It's quite obvious BC does not know how to build a team. Get him out!

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12-11-2012, 03:10 PM
  #545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socratic View Post
I 100% think it's time for BC to go, but this is a horribly biased summary of his moves.


2006 - You think if the celtics drafted first overall that year they would have picked Rondo? Bargnani was a heavy favourite in a weak draft.


2008 - I still hate BC for trading Hibbert. This was a stupid thing to do and could have spelled his end right there.


2009 - Derozan was a steal at #9. Great draft choice.

2010 - Ed Davis - Amazing pick at 13.

2011 - In the next comment this blogger goes on to say that "In the top ten you take the best available players". End of discussion. Valuncius was the best available player.

2012 - It's early, but I think Ross was a dumb move.


Half of the "Significant Moves" mentioned in the blog aren't at all significant, and none of his good moves are mentioned. If you actually want a good breakdown of BC's History, start here: http://raptorsrepublic.com/2011/07/1...trades-part-i/
Agreed. Davis and Demar are good players. You know role players. But we need a stud player right now, mr. primetime and some veteran pieces.

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12-11-2012, 03:29 PM
  #546
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I actually think Barbosa played well here, but I can't say much about the other players BC has acquired.

Like I said... Grunwald>>>Colangelo. It's quite obvious BC does not know how to build a team. Get him out!
Would be nice if we still had Isiah Thomas and Glen Grunwald.

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Old
12-11-2012, 03:41 PM
  #547
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Agreed. Davis and Demar are good players. You know role players. But we need a stud player right now, mr. primetime and some veteran pieces.
Yea I agree. Demar is a good SG, one of the better ones in the league. But he isn't a star player that you can depend on to get things done ffor you when pressure has been applied (like the fourth quarter of a game). Same goes for Lowry. The star player is the biggest thing this team is missing (and the hardest to find). If we could end up with a 3 that can be that player adding him to a team of whats below and we would be solid, of course getting a good PF would make us even better.

PG- Lowry
SG- DD
SF-
PF-
C- Val

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12-11-2012, 03:48 PM
  #548
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people ripping on ross already
he seems to be one of the few guys that actually care
he will be a great player
haters come talk to me in 2 years,
i know stats are not great, but he gets wat 10 minutes a game,

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12-11-2012, 03:50 PM
  #549
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not sure if ross is ready for starting duties, but he cant be worse, id say give him a shot
nothing to lose

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12-11-2012, 03:52 PM
  #550
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Anybody hear Jack and Bobcat?

Things got pretty tense.

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