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Westgarth talks about negotiating with owners

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12-11-2012, 11:10 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
What matters is what was asked and what they've given. And Westgarth is right.
Right in what regards? That the players have given up a "reasonable" amount? That's very subjective.

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12-11-2012, 11:14 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by tko78 View Post
So, with respect, you're operating on assumptions that are not necessarily true and spin or no spin, what Mr. Westgarth is saying is certainly within the realm of possibility.
While some lawyers may not be prepared at all times, you can be sure that Mark Chipman was. His bottom line relies upon it and he is a details guy. Westgarth's claims to the contrary (while perhaps skirting the realms of possibility in your own view) are indeed laughable in this specific case.

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12-11-2012, 11:24 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Right in what regards? That the players have given up a "reasonable" amount? That's very subjective.
Using the two things that matter... where you were and where you were asked to go..
It's not subjective, it's a fact.

If you want to argue that the PA's last offer is "unreasonable," go ahead.

But I'm almost positive that you and most of the Pro-Owner people on HFboards would have gladly endorsed that offer on Sept. 10.

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12-11-2012, 12:10 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Using the two things that matter... where you were and where you were asked to go..
It's not subjective, it's a fact.

If you want to argue that the PA's last offer is "unreasonable," go ahead.

But I'm almost positive that you and most of the Pro-Owner people on HFboards would have gladly endorsed that offer on Sept. 10.
The majority of it, most likely. However that was then and this is now. They've waited this long, so there's little reason not to wait a tad longer to get the best deal possible.

Ones opinion on 'reasonable' is always subjective.

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12-11-2012, 05:09 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
They keep getting accused of just being about the money but they are clearly fighting for more than that.
Yeah, they're fighting for the upper 15% of NHLPA members. Mid-tier players (way above Westgarth's level) are falling on their swords so Crosby, Kovalchuk and Ovie can argue that they want a 13+ year deal.

85% (or more) of NHLPA members will see no difference in their contracts nor in their hockey lives.

They ARE just fighting over money, which they are losing every single day by not agreeing to a CBA. (i.e. when anyone says it's not about the money, it's ALWAYS about the money)

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12-11-2012, 05:55 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Using the two things that matter... where you were and where you were asked to go..
It's not subjective, it's a fact.

If you want to argue that the PA's last offer is "unreasonable," go ahead.

But I'm almost positive that you and most of the Pro-Owner people on HFboards would have gladly endorsed that offer on Sept. 10.
I'm pretty sure any reasonable person would endorse basically any deal that gets hockey back on the ice for a long time.

The fact that either side has the balls to say that they've gone 'further than they want to' tells me that neither side wants to make a deal. Fair meaning, they get the better end.

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12-11-2012, 06:15 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Should probably get this out there as well:


We have gone a lot further than a great percentage of the membership has wanted us to go, Westgarth said. I dont know how you look at our offer and say that weve been unreasonable.
They have managed to lose over $600M so far in wages to get $300M in escrow... Sounds like really good business sense.

Can't blame the large percentage of the membership who would rather have had $600M in wages than $300M in escrow.

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12-11-2012, 06:19 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by SuperUnknown View Post
They have managed to lose over $600M so far in wages to get $300M in escrow... Sounds like really good business sense.

Can't blame the large percentage of the membership who would rather have had $600M in wages than $300M in escrow.

In any battle, there are tangibles and intangibles. What you and I may consider as having no value would have a much greater deal of value, e.g., would your personal liberties be for sale? Once you get past the minimum needed for outright survival, each of us places a different value on everything thereafter. It's why some people think certain others will sell their souls to the devil just to get more money, for example.

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12-11-2012, 07:36 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Yeah, they're fighting for the upper 15% of NHLPA members. Mid-tier players (way above Westgarth's level) are falling on their swords so Crosby, Kovalchuk and Ovie can argue that they want a 13+ year deal.

85% (or more) of NHLPA members will see no difference in their contracts nor in their hockey lives.

They ARE just fighting over money, which they are losing every single day by not agreeing to a CBA. (i.e. when anyone says it's not about the money, it's ALWAYS about the money)
Yes it's about the money, but I don't think many posters actually listened to Westgarth. He said the entire set of contract issues are much bigger to the players than many realize. From his perspective, the owners' demands on contract restrictions have a big impact on most players' earning ability. He said those years are the prime earning years, because the average player only last 4 1/2 years in the NHL. Westgarth said players have to get as much as they can in those second and third contracts.

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12-11-2012, 08:14 PM
  #60
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If the average player only lasts 4-1/2 years in the NHL, then why are they against a 5-year max contract length? The owners aren't asking for a MINIMUM contract length, they are asking for a MAX.

EDIT: unless they're referring to the UFA issue.

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12-11-2012, 09:48 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xref View Post
If the average player only lasts 4-1/2 years in the NHL, then why are they against a 5-year max contract length? The owners aren't asking for a MINIMUM contract length, they are asking for a MAX.

EDIT: unless they're referring to the UFA issue.
Why exactly would owners ask for a minimum contract length to begin with?

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12-11-2012, 11:14 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperUnknown View Post
They have managed to lose over $600M so far in wages to get $300M in escrow... Sounds like really good business sense.

Can't blame the large percentage of the membership who would rather have had $600M in wages than $300M in escrow.
With the original 211M proposed by the owners in Oct, it's actually:

Losing 811M to gain 300M

or

Losing 600M to gain 89M

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12-11-2012, 11:22 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
The majority of it, most likely. However that was then and this is now. They've waited this long, so there's little reason not to wait a tad longer to get the best deal possible.

Ones opinion on 'reasonable' is always subjective.
You're saying that you would have agreed to most of the PA's offer had this been on the table in September... but because you think you can get a little more by waiting, that "The Players are being unreasonable?""

Stop pretending you're in the room negotiating.


Last edited by Killion: 12-11-2012 at 11:47 PM. Reason: Not reqd;
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Old
12-11-2012, 11:23 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I'm pretty sure any reasonable person would endorse basically any deal that gets hockey back on the ice for a long time.

The fact that either side has the balls to say that they've gone 'further than they want to' tells me that neither side wants to make a deal. Fair meaning, they get the better end.

I'm not sure what your vague post is all about. It's in reply to what I wrote. But it has nothing to do with it.

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12-11-2012, 11:59 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
You're saying that you would have agreed to most of the PA's offer had this been on the table in September... but because you think you can get a little more by waiting, that "The Players are being unreasonable?""

Stop pretending you're in the room negotiating.
I'm pretty sure the players likely would have agreed to the owners current offer in Sept as well... yet here they are...

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12-12-2012, 12:42 AM
  #66
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Someone tell Westgarth most meetings include people who arent totally current on all info. There are only 24 hrs in the day pal and many of these guys work a lot.

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12-12-2012, 08:40 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Right in what regards? That the players have given up a "reasonable" amount? That's very subjective.
Yea they get 300 back, plus they want all the rest too.

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12-12-2012, 08:50 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I'm not sure what your vague post is all about. It's in reply to what I wrote. But it has nothing to do with it.
Because this isn't an argument about whether or not Crosby is good at defense. If the owners get their 'way' and it turns out to be a deal that allows for harmony for the next 50 years there are going to be 'pro-PA' guys angry about it. It's a political discussion that is bordering on insanity.

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12-12-2012, 11:39 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
I'm pretty sure the players likely would have agreed to the owners current offer in Sept as well... yet here they are...
So... is the PA's recent offer unreasonable?
Answer the question instead of dancing around it, or stop arguing.

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12-12-2012, 11:49 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Because this isn't an argument about whether or not Crosby is good at defense. If the owners get their 'way' and it turns out to be a deal that allows for harmony for the next 50 years there are going to be 'pro-PA' guys angry about it. It's a political discussion that is bordering on insanity.
It's not complicated.
Westgarth said this:
Quote:
We have gone a lot further than a great percentage of the membership has wanted us to go, Westgarth said. I dont know how you look at our offer and say that weve been unreasonable.
When you look at where the players were, where they owners asked them to go, and where they are now... Westgarth is right.

Their offer is so close to what the owners want, they've moved so far from where they were... that the only way you can believe the PA is being unreasonable is to believe that the PA should accept whatever the owners demand.

And if you believe that, then you lose your credibility in speaking about who is reasonable and who is not.

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12-12-2012, 12:21 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
Yes it's about the money, but I don't think many posters actually listened to Westgarth. He said the entire set of contract issues are much bigger to the players than many realize. From his perspective, the owners' demands on contract restrictions have a big impact on most players' earning ability. He said those years are the prime earning years, because the average player only last 4 1/2 years in the NHL. Westgarth said players have to get as much as they can in those second and third contracts.
How does causing an entire season to be cancelled fit in with their plans to "get as much as they can in those second and third contracts?"

hmm, 4.5 yr average career...? minus an entire season...? That's A LOT of money to try to make up.

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12-12-2012, 12:26 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
It's not complicated.
Westgarth said this:

When you look at where the players were, where they owners asked them to go, and where they are now... Westgarth is right.

Their offer is so close to what the owners want, they've moved so far from where they were... that the only way you can believe the PA is being unreasonable is to believe that the PA should accept whatever the owners demand.

And if you believe that, then you lose your credibility in speaking about who is reasonable and who is not.
I don't think you're comprehending what I'm saying, but repeating myself for the 3rd time won't seem to do anything more.

I think the players have moved a ton, but that should have been expected. They'll move more too, because they have to. But as for this whole credibility thing, I don't think that can of worms needs to be opened on your part.

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12-12-2012, 12:58 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I don't think you're comprehending what I'm saying, but repeating myself for the 3rd time won't seem to do anything more.

I think the players have moved a ton, but that should have been expected. They'll move more too, because they have to. But as for this whole credibility thing, I don't think that can of worms needs to be opened on your part.
Look, Westgarth said nobody can look at the PA's offer and say it's unreasonable.

Are you saying the PA's offer is unreasonable?

Tell me how its unreasonable or knock it off.

You can have your opinion about whether they had to move or whether will move more. While I disagree with that opinion, that's not what I'm arguing with.

I am defending Westgarth's comment about the reasonable nature of the PA's offer.

Reasonable people have little room to disagree about the truth of Westgarth's comment.

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12-12-2012, 02:23 PM
  #74
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Yea they get 300 back, plus they want all the rest too.
The negotiations are about future CBAs and earnings. The players will, as a group, give back 12% of what had been the baseline from the last CBA (57% if HRR was greater than $2.7 billion).

Their stance has been that, okay, you can keep more of the money from our partnership on revenues going forward, but we don't want to go backwards from what you promised us in the last CBA. In fact, if some of those crazy contracts hadn't been tossed out right before the lockout, that gap wouldn't be quite as large (even with conservative revenue growth going forward).

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