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Leafs ranked 20th by Hockey's Future.

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12-11-2012, 06:33 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
I dunno if Detroit should be 10th, but saying Smith is half as good as Gardiner is laughable. Detroit and Toronto fans wont agree on much but in the NCAA Smith was the more dominant of the 2 and babcock said he wanted him on Detroit last season but Holland wouldn't let him.

Noone will make an argument for Smith over Rielly, but Smith is looking to be as good as Gardiner but with a mean streak on top. Hes not a better prospect then Rielly but Smith is also very polished and clearly going to step into the NHL and do well. A lot could still happen with Rielly.

You need to watch these players to know whos ebetter, you clearly havent watched Nyquist. He and Kadri dont play the same game at all. Nyquist is a very good defensive player and has the offensive game to match Kadri. In Nyquists second year in the NCAA he put up the same points per game as Kadris most dominant junior season. He did that playing against much older players, in a lower scoring league and while having a great two way game



Thats not true either. Its part of the reason Detroit kept him down so long, they want him to be that two way guy and not only about getting points. Now he puts up points, is the go to defensive player and pretty damn tough as well


Age of the prospects doesnt matter, theyre considered prospects based on the criteria of the ranking. Its also how Detroit operates, they cant draft the Riellys and Kadris at 5th overall so they take guys that need to have their game ironed out. The same thing happened to Kronwall, Datsyuk, Zetterberg.

I consider Mrazek to be a pretty awesome goalie prospect as well.

Look I dont think Toronto has a bad prospect pool but theyre also a young team, most of their top young guns are already on the leafs so being lower in the prospect rankings isnt a bad thing.

But outside of Rielly the leafs dont have an amazing blue chip prospect either. Kadri has a tonne of question marks and theres just as many leaf fans who think hes a bust as think he'll be a top 6 player. Colborne hasn't been good. Frattin is a scorer for sure but seems more like a third liner. Outside of Rielly is a lot of question marks.

Detroit doesnt have the Rielly level prospect, but they have 2 high calibre top line/top pairing type prospects that are better then anything else Toronto has. Mrazeks just as good as any goalie Toronto has. Sproul and Ouellet are probably also better than any other dmen Toronto has besides Rielly (Finn could be there though). Its not ridiculous to say Detroits prospects are better because after Rielly Detroit has a clear advantage, you should learn more about their prospects before comparing Kadri and Nyquist or saying Smith is half as good as Gardiner. But like I said with such a young team its also because of young guys already being on the rsoter which Detroit doesnt have
Dear lord another NEwfy Wings fan. Do they grow you guys on trees out there or something?


I do believe I later said Smith deserved more credit than I had earlier gave him. BUt that's ok if you want to ignore that post.

Nyquist and Kadri put up similar numbers in the AHL. That is what I am talking about. Not what they were doing 3 years ago.

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12-11-2012, 06:34 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
So you don't think that it's "strange" that ALL the hockey ranking sites collectively think the leafs prospects are mediocre.
Please find me a rankings list that shows the leafs having elite prospects. I mean, i hear leaf fans (and only leaf fans) constantly claim how great our prospects are since Burke's arrive.
Is there anybody that's impartial that agrees with this?
Or just leaf fans?

Here's what's happening...
the leafs have been terrible since Brian Burke arrived. Leaf fans are famous for defending their GM to the death until the very day he's fired. They did it with Quinn, JFJ, Fletcher, and are doing it now with Burke.
Being that the leafs have been so ridiculously terrible under Burke, leaf fans have resorted to saying "Yeah... well... uh... he's dramatically improved our prospects!!!!!

Leaf fan realists than use their blessed skills of impartiality and say "uh... really? Because our prospects look entirely mediocre".

Then then the hockey news, HF, and everybody else makes their ranking lists. ALL of them agree with leaf fan realists. The leafs prospects are utterly mediocre.

Burke supporters (the only people in the world that think the leafs prospects are any good) then rely on petty tricks and trivialities to defend themselves.
"But hey... I think our prospects are better than Chicago's and Detroits. And that proves that ALL prospects rankings are wrong. Leafs fans are correct. They know better than ALL those nhl scouts and professionals that make those lists."

If you really think that you're being fair and impartial about the leafs prospects at this point... then I really just don't know what to say...
Ofcourse none of our prospects have graduated or anything.

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12-11-2012, 06:50 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Ofcourse none of our prospects have graduated or anything.
Of course, none of the other teams had prospects who graduated.
Just the leafs.
Last year we were ranked 18th. Before the all important "graduation".

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12-11-2012, 07:15 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Dear lord another NEwfy Wings fan. Do they grow you guys on trees out there or something?


I do believe I later said Smith deserved more credit than I had earlier gave him. BUt that's ok if you want to ignore that post.

Nyquist and Kadri put up similar numbers in the AHL. That is what I am talking about. Not what they were doing 3 years ago.
So you're comparing players based entirely on a stats sheet.
Very intelligent.

Do you really think that that's how these prospect rankings are created? By just looking at stat sheets?
Unbelievable.

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12-11-2012, 07:51 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Of course, none of the other teams had prospects who graduated.
Just the leafs.
Last year we were ranked 18th. Before the all important "graduation".
I thought you were just bashing Burke and our prospects?

Now you want to get into other teams. Well find an unbiased report and let's compare.


Last edited by charliolemieux: 12-11-2012 at 08:12 PM.
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12-11-2012, 07:55 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
So you're comparing players based entirely on a stats sheet.
Very intelligent.

Do you really think that that's how these prospect rankings are created? By just looking at stat sheets?
Unbelievable.
Yes it's only stats. Total waste of time to actually watch a game. But you know that. Infact you know everything don't you?

Do you have a point, or are you just posting rubbish for fun?

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12-11-2012, 08:12 PM
  #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
So you don't think that it's "strange" that ALL the hockey ranking sites collectively think the leafs prospects are mediocre.
Please find me a rankings list that shows the leafs having elite prospects. I mean, i hear leaf fans (and only leaf fans) constantly claim how great our prospects are since Burke's arrive.
Is there anybody that's impartial that agrees with this?
Or just leaf fans?


Here's what's happening...
the leafs have been terrible since Brian Burke arrived. Leaf fans are famous for defending their GM to the death until the very day he's fired. They did it with Quinn, JFJ, Fletcher, and are doing it now with Burke.
Being that the leafs have been so ridiculously terrible under Burke, leaf fans have resorted to saying "Yeah... well... uh... he's dramatically improved our prospects!!!!!

Leaf fan realists than use their blessed skills of impartiality and say "uh... really? Because our prospects look entirely mediocre".

Then then the hockey news, HF, and everybody else makes their ranking lists. ALL of them agree with leaf fan realists. The leafs prospects are utterly mediocre.

Burke supporters (the only people in the world that think the leafs prospects are any good) then rely on petty tricks and trivialities to defend themselves.
"But hey... I think our prospects are better than Chicago's and Detroits. And that proves that ALL prospects rankings are wrong. Leafs fans are correct. They know better than ALL those nhl scouts and professionals that make those lists."

If you really think that you're being fair and impartial about the leafs prospects at this point... then I really just don't know what to say...
I'm going to say this one more time and after that I just won't bother responding to it.

I haven't said whether or not the leafs prospects are elite or mediocre. All I am saying is someone like Chicago has similar prospects to the Leafs and they are 9th while the Leafs are 20th. My beef with the list isn't the rankings of the prospects, it's with the consistency in ranking the teams who have similar prospects. The difference between 9th and 20th is not 11 places.

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12-11-2012, 08:14 PM
  #383
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If picks/prospects are all that matter, why aren't the Islanders and Blue Jackets contenders already?

The HF list going by past years isn't that reliable. You can win by good drafting/trades/UFA signings. If the new CBA does limit contracts to 5 years, it'll be a great thing for the Leafs as Burke hates deals longer than that and the team has a great cap situation.

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12-11-2012, 08:21 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Grant View Post
I'm going to say this one more time and after that I just won't bother responding to it.

I haven't said whether or not the leafs prospects are elite or mediocre. All I am saying is someone like Chicago has similar prospects to the Leafs and they are 9th while the Leafs are 20th. My beef with the list isn't the rankings of the prospects, it's with the consistency in ranking the teams who have similar prospects. The difference between 9th and 20th is not 11 places.
I fail to see how certain people just can't grasp this.

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12-11-2012, 08:37 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
I thought you were just bashing Burke and our prospects?

Now you want to get into other teams. Well find an unbiased report and let's compare.
The prospect ranking lists are directly comparing the leafs to all other nhl teams.
The leafs have prospects that have graduated. But so does every other team!!!! So I have absolutely no idea what your point is.

After four years of Burke, the leafs last finished 5th last in the standings and all the prospect ranking sites think the leafs have mediocre prospects.

People that support Burke should stop shouting about "bias" and conspiracy's and maybe start to consider the possibility that Burke has simply done a terrible job.

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12-11-2012, 08:40 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Yes it's only stats. Total waste of time to actually watch a game. But you know that. Infact you know everything don't you?

Do you have a point, or are you just posting rubbish for fun?
I'm saying that I trust the the HF staff who actually watched the players and the professional nhl scouts the made the hockey news rankings more than Charliolemieux on the internet who "likes" the leafs, so insists that our prospects must be "good" based on.... well... nothing at all.

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12-11-2012, 08:44 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Grant View Post
I'm going to say this one more time and after that I just won't bother responding to it.

I haven't said whether or not the leafs prospects are elite or mediocre. All I am saying is someone like Chicago has similar prospects to the Leafs and they are 9th while the Leafs are 20th. My beef with the list isn't the rankings of the prospects, it's with the consistency in ranking the teams who have similar prospects. The difference between 9th and 20th is not 11 places.
How many times have you watched all of the Chicago prospects play hockey?
I'll assume your answer is "zero" or "hardly at all".
So how could you possibly be angry at them being placed higher than the leafs mediocre prospects?

Instead of being angry at HF for impartially giving an informed opinion, you should be mad at Burke for further turning this franchise into an embarrassment.

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12-11-2012, 08:47 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
If picks/prospects are all that matter, why aren't the Islanders and Blue Jackets contenders already?
Because they are dirt poor teams that suffer from dramatic financial limitations.

Unlike our leafs who "suffer" from dramatic financial advantages. But Burke in all his idiocy still can't find a way to make it work.

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12-11-2012, 08:48 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
How many times have you watched all of the Chicago prospects play hockey?
I'll assume your answer is "zero" or "hardly at all".
So how could you possibly be angry at them being placed higher than the leafs mediocre prospects?

Instead of being angry at HF for impartially giving an informed opinion, you should be mad at Burke for further turning this franchise into an embarrassment.
Yeah the standard was so high when he arrived

The Chicago/Detroit knocks are valid. They are horrendously high on the list.

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12-11-2012, 08:51 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Because they are dirt poor teams that suffer from dramatic financial limitations.

Unlike our leafs who "suffer" from dramatic financial advantages. But Burke in all his idiocy still can't find a way to make it work.
That's a lazy argument. And it's simply not true. What does money have to do with picking top 5? The fact is, it exposes how a lot of good prospects don't turn out. Did Doug Maclean pick Zherdev and Brule because of lack of money? Of course not.

Look at Florida. Right before the last lockout, they were stacked with young players and prospects. The hockey world predicted great things for them. They never saw the playoffs once. Even people like Bob Mckenzie said they'd be contending for cups in the near future.

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12-11-2012, 08:52 PM
  #391
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Haters gotta hate, that's it really.

Its the same old same old, I don't know why people get goaded into this type of nonsense. Who cares what some list says about Leaf prospects. The ice tells the story not the list, I've seen some Leaf prospects this year (not as many as I would like to unfortunately being in Edmotnon) and for the most part, look legit (try not to miss a game when Moose Jaw comes to town).

Go leafs and their prospects!!!

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12-11-2012, 09:00 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
That's a lazy argument. And it's simply not true. What does money have to do with picking top 5? The fact is, it exposes how a lot of good prospects don't turn out. Did Doug Maclean pick Zherdev and Brule because of lack of money? Of course not.

Look at Florida. Right before the last lockout, they were stacked with young players and prospects. The hockey world predicted great things for them. They never saw the playoffs once. Even people like Bob Mckenzie said they'd be contending for cups in the near future.
The main reason those teams struggle is financial limitations.
To say that they are examples of "drafting not being important" is an insincere red herring argument that is insulting to the intelligence of rational hockey fans.

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12-11-2012, 09:01 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
The prospect ranking lists are directly comparing the leafs to all other nhl teams.
The leafs have prospects that have graduated. But so does every other team!!!! So I have absolutely no idea what your point is.

After four years of Burke, the leafs last finished 5th last in the standings and all the prospect ranking sites think the leafs have mediocre prospects.

People that support Burke should stop shouting about "bias" and conspiracy's and maybe start to consider the possibility that Burke has simply done a terrible job.
The bias was plainly shown by Grant.

And when you called him a liar about 4 other people showed you you were wrong. So I don't know how you managed to miss that.

Has nothing to do with Burke unless he is making the rankings.

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12-11-2012, 09:03 PM
  #394
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
The main reason those teams struggle is financial limitations.
To say that they are examples of "drafting not being important" is an insincere red herring argument that is insulting to the intelligence of rational hockey fans.
I never said that. What I said was it doesn't always work.

And again, you honestly think teams like Columbus, Florida, and Islanders only have seen their players not turn out like they expected because of money? They are taking the same players everyone else would have in terms of top 5-10 picks. Money has nothing to do with it.

Nashville has serious financial issues, yet they've been fine drafting players.

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12-11-2012, 09:04 PM
  #395
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Yes it's only stats. Total waste of time to actually watch a game. But you know that. Infact you know everything don't you?

Do you have a point, or are you just posting rubbish for fun?
Ask him about Bozak. He's been bang on about him so far!!

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12-11-2012, 09:05 PM
  #396
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
How many times have you watched all of the Chicago prospects play hockey?
I'll assume your answer is "zero" or "hardly at all".
So how could you possibly be angry at them being placed higher than the leafs mediocre prospects?

Instead of being angry at HF for impartially giving an informed opinion, you should be mad at Burke for further turning this franchise into an embarrassment.
No I haven't watched them play, I'm comparing their individual prospect rankings to our individual prospect rankings.

I see Rielly as the highest ranked prospect out of both teams at 8.5C.
I see Chicago having 2 players at 7.5C (Teravainen and Saad).
I see Toronto having 3 players at 7.5C (Kadri, Colborne and Blacker).
I see Chicago with 10 players at 7.0C while Toronto has 8 at 7.0C.
I see Chicago has 4 players with 7.0D while Toronto has 3 at 7.0D.

Toronto has more of the highest ranked prospects. Chicago has slightly more of the other higher ranked prospects.

Right off the bat given the rankings one could say Toronto has better prospects. Other factors such as NHL readiness (Saad and Shaw looked pretty good at the end of last season) I realize can jump Chicago past Toronto in the rankings but I fail to see why they should be 11 rankings ahead. Something more like 1 or 2 ahead of Toronto (whether it be around the 10 or 20th mark in the rankings I don't care) seems better to me.

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12-11-2012, 09:05 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
I'm saying that I trust the the HF staff who actually watched the players and the professional nhl scouts the made the hockey news rankings more than Charliolemieux on the internet who "likes" the leafs, so insists that our prospects must be "good" based on.... well... nothing at all.
The same staff who says Goaltending is a strength for Nashville and a weakness for Toronto, yet Rank Toronto's goalies individually higher?

That staff?

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12-11-2012, 09:06 PM
  #398
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
I fail to see how certain people just can't grasp this.
It's simple. This is HF, the land of 'busts' like Gardiner. I'm sure HF is bang on again this time with yet another Leaf trolling.

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12-11-2012, 09:07 PM
  #399
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Ask him about Bozak. He's been bang on about him so far!!
What a bout Bozak?

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12-11-2012, 09:08 PM
  #400
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Because they are dirt poor teams that suffer from dramatic financial limitations.

Unlike our leafs who "suffer" from dramatic financial advantages. But Burke in all his idiocy still can't find a way to make it work.
"Due to financial constraints, the Columbus Blue Jackets are sad the select Nikolai Zherdev"

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