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CBA Negotiations III: Why Can't We All Just...Get Along?

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Old
12-10-2012, 05:34 PM
  #476
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well there goes December..

GRRRR !!!!

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12-10-2012, 05:40 PM
  #477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Jamison would be crazy to buy the team any time, but with this lockout the league looks so mickey mouse, he or any other potential suitor in a non-hockey market should back off.

There is no way they'd move the team from Glendale back to Phoenix. The arena in Phoenix wasn't suitable for hockey which is why they moved the team in the first place. Move it to Quebec already, they can play in Le Colisee until the new arena is ready. It holds over 15,000 people who will pay more than $15 a ticket.
Jamison hasn't even proven he has the money to buy the team. He wouldn't reveal who his investors were during the city council meeting, yet somehow they gave him the money.


I think ultimately the team will stay in Phoenix. If there's one thing I learned in hockey, it's that Bettman gets what he wants, pretty much all the time. And it's only pretty much all the time because he did finally have to call it quits in Atlanta...which was much more of a salvageable situation than Phoenix.

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12-10-2012, 07:16 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Once you understand how negotiation works, you'll realize that the time they aren't meeting together is as critical or more critical than sitting in a room slamming their heads against the wall. Time apart allows for tempers to cool, new proposals to arise, and frankly, people to crack on their demands.
Pretty much this.

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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
They didn't get robbed, but it certainly wasn't a "just" outcome, if you figure that justice means you get what you deserve. Edmonton has had the first pick 3 years in a row. The league should put something into practice that says if you have the #1 pick one year, you are not able to win the lottery the remaining year, or something to that effect.
See, to me, that would be unjust. If you opt to have a lottery, you abide by the rules of chance, and what is just is what random chance gives you. In this way, I don't think Columbus deserved the first pick, no team did. But Edmonton got it, fair and square.

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The purpose of the lottery is to prevent intentionally losing like Pittsburgh did in 1984. There was no doubt that Columbus was the worst team in the league last year. They were 9 points behind Edmonton.
Well, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a more rigid draft pick awarding system, but the problem is you'll never have everyone agree on what "just" is, and how it should be handled. Every system can be gamed, and that's not the fault of the system in place, it's just its nature. You just can't create a "perfect" system here. And I think the one in place isn't that bad, actually, although I'd change it by having the cut-off for placings earlier in the season, for example. But that wouldn't be perfect, either, and I realize that. So going by chance works for me, and I think every team "deserved" their pick

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12-11-2012, 06:52 AM
  #479
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[QUOTE=Ryker;56435435]Pretty much this.

See, to me, that would be unjust. If you opt to have a lottery, you abide by the rules of chance, and what is just is what random chance gives you. In this way, I don't think Columbus deserved the first pick, no team did. But Edmonton got it, fair and square.

Well, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a more rigid draft pick awarding system, but the problem is you'll never have everyone agree on what "just" is, and how it should be handled. Every system can be gamed, and that's not the fault of the system in place, it's just its nature. You just can't create a "perfect" system here. And I think the one in place isn't that bad, actually, although I'd change it by having the cut-off for placings earlier in the season, for example. But that wouldn't be perfect, either, and I realize that. So going by chance works for me, and I think every team "deserved" their pick [/QUOTE]


I agree with what you are saying - based on this system. I just don't like teams getting the number one pick year after year when they were not the worst team. I wish they scrapped the system. However, I like it much better than the NBA's system because in their system, any non-playoff team can win, and then they get the #1 pick. At least in the NHL teams only move up 3 spots (or is it 4?).

MLB and the NFL don't use a lottery, which makes me call into question why one is even necessary anymore.

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12-11-2012, 09:34 AM
  #480
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I figured out how this lockout will end.

D Fehr vs G Bettman and gary will be the chicken I this fight.





who do you think wins

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12-11-2012, 11:11 AM
  #481
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Jamison hasn't even proven he has the money to buy the team. He wouldn't reveal who his investors were during the city council meeting, yet somehow they gave him the money.


I think ultimately the team will stay in Phoenix. If there's one thing I learned in hockey, it's that Bettman gets what he wants, pretty much all the time. And it's only pretty much all the time because he did finally have to call it quits in Atlanta...which was much more of a salvageable situation than Phoenix.
Thrashers were about to have no place to play as the new owners of stadium/hawks wanted them out,, Not exactly salvageable

At least Yotes have an arena secure for play

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12-11-2012, 11:26 AM
  #482
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"I can't wait to see what his teammates do when guys go after him." Philly's Scott Hartnell on @TEAM1200Ottawa on Roman Hamrlik. #NHL #NHLPA

https://twitter.com/SunGarrioch/stat...43587791220737

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12-11-2012, 02:33 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Couturier View Post
Bruce Garrioch ‏@SunGarrioch
"I can't wait to see what his teammates do when guys go after him." Philly's Scott Hartnell on @TEAM1200Ottawa on Roman Hamrlik. #NHL #NHLPA

https://twitter.com/SunGarrioch/stat...43587791220737
"either you're with us or against us"

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12-11-2012, 02:39 PM
  #484
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??? what did the guy say ??

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12-11-2012, 03:04 PM
  #485
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I don't see the big deal. That's how every union has worked, forever. Go against he union and you dig yourself a hole. Look no further than MLB players and scabs who stuck in the MLB during their strike; the stigma there lasted for a decade. They were ostracized. It's the risk you take.

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12-11-2012, 03:25 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan4life View Post
??? what did the guy say ??
http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/stor...a-gary-bettman

Quote:
"I am disgusted. We have to push Fehr to the wall to get the deal. Time is against us. We lost (a quarter of the) season, it is $425 million. Who will give it back to us? Mr. Fehr?" Hamrlik was quoted as saying.
Quote:
"There should be voting between players. Four questions—YES or NO—then count it. If half of players say let's play, then they should sign new CBA. If there is no season he should leave and we will find someone new. Time is our enemy."
Quote:
“This is nothing against any of the players,” Hamrlik said. “I stand with them. We are all together in this. And we want a great deal. A fair deal. Everybody’s losing in this right now. Owners, players, fans.

“The fans are the reason for hockey. Some cities won’t be able to recover their fans for future seasons. I just want to say I’ve been in the league for 20 years and faced three lockouts and there’s only 14 other guys that have done that. I believe I’ve earned the right to say what I think.

“If someone thinks I’m selfish, I may be, but it’s selfish to play hockey. Like everybody else, I want to win the (Stanley) Cup with the Capitals, or at least have a chance.”

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12-11-2012, 03:29 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
I don't see the big deal. That's how every union has worked, forever. Go against he union and you dig yourself a hole. Look no further than MLB players and scabs who stuck in the MLB during their strike; the stigma there lasted for a decade. They were ostracized. It's the risk you take.
IT is a big deal. Fehr proclaims that the player should be allowed to speak their mind and as soon as someone goes against what the rest of the players are saying, he gets bashed and indirectly threatened.

Crossing a picket line is different than this case. Most of the replacement players that were going to play in the MLB were players who would never have a chance to make it to the MLB. Don't you think if the NHL could get replacement players they would have tons of ECHLers and AHLers lining up? OF course they would

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12-11-2012, 03:40 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
IT is a big deal. Fehr proclaims that the player should be allowed to speak their mind and as soon as someone goes against what the rest of the players are saying, he gets bashed and indirectly threatened.

Crossing a picket line is different than this case. Most of the replacement players that were going to play in the MLB were players who would never have a chance to make it to the MLB. Don't you think if the NHL could get replacement players they would have tons of ECHLers and AHLers lining up? OF course they would
If the NHL were able to use replacement players, any who stayed in the NHL would probably be forever damned like the MLB guys were. That's how unions are.

This is a simple reality of unions. It IS "with us or against us" and always has been, in every union ever formed. This really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Besides, it's not like the owners don't also have a million dollar penalty for speaking to the media. On the other hand, Fehr can't and won't punish any players who speak out. That won't stop the rest of the union from making him an outcast.

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12-11-2012, 04:41 PM
  #489
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Hamrlik is just mad because he is at the end of his career and this lockout may end it. It is somewhat selfish to act the way he is acting. He doesn't give a crap about the new CBA because it will affect him very little. The guys it will affect are the guys with years to play under the CBA. Anyone (not just Hamrlik) who whines about not having a deal done just to get a deal done is silly. That is how you screw your fellow players (and potentially yourself). The point of the Union is to get the best deal possible, not just sign any deal in order to get back on the ice. I hate this lockout as much as the next, but just signing a deal because it will get people on the ice is silly.

For fans, it sucks to see this and sucks that it seems like Fehr is just playing hardball for no reason. But you have to look at the big picture. He is fighting to give the players a better deal. He isn't doing it to make a name for himself and he isn't doing it to piss of the owners or the fans. The players wanted a guy who will bargain hard for them and get them the best deal. Just giving in for the sake of getting the game back on the ice would be great for the fans, but not a smart move for the players. Hence, the lockout is still ongoing.

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12-11-2012, 05:29 PM
  #490
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If there is a season do cap constraints even matter that much for this season? If the cap itself is not pro-rated to the remaining games on the schedule, I imagine most teams will fit under the cap because the players will have already missed at least 20 games (23 for the Flyers if the season starts on Dec. 31) so since they have missed about 1/4 of the season I'd guess their cap hits should be about 1/4 less. If this is the case it would actually be kind of funny as with all this arguing over the CBA teams make it under the cap with a loophole though the disagreements thus far have been about other matters.


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12-11-2012, 06:48 PM
  #491
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
For 2014-2015, assuming cap increases 7% - 64.521

HARTNELL (4.75) - GIROUX (6.5) - VORACEK (4.25)
SCHENN (3.5) - BRIERE (6.5) - SIMMONDS (3.975)
READ (2.5) - COUTURIER (2.5) - TALBOT (1.75)
WELLWOOD (.8) - 4C (1.2) - RINALDO (.65)
13F (.7)

COBURN (4.5) - GROSSMANN (3.5)
SCHENN (3.6) - GUSTAFSSON (1.1)
BOURDON (.9) - 6/7D (.9)

BRYZ (5.667)
BACKUPG (.9)

= 60.595M

with 1 player left to sign... so yeah, to sign everyone and still have enough money to sign a #1D it would be challenging.

Hate to say it... but if there were an amnesty buyout... I'd strongly consider buying out Briere. Promoting Brayden Schenn to 2nd line C, and signing a legit second line winger:

HARTNELL (4.75) - GIROUX (6.5) - VORACEK (4.25)
2LW (3.5) - SCHENN (3.5) - SIMMONDS (3.975)
READ (2.5) - COUTURIER (2.5) - TALBOT (1.75)
WELLWOOD (.8) - 4C (1.2) - RINALDO (.65)
13F (.7)

COBURN (4.5) - GROSSMANN (3.5)
SCHENN (3.6) - GUSTAFSSON (1.1)
BOURDON (.9) - 6/7D (.9)

BRYZ (5.667)
BACKUPG (.9)

= 57.095M committed ~7.426M to sign 1 player.

There is no Amnesty, There is no Hiding contracts overseas and in the AHL, and there is no more front loaded deals. Or years tacked on To bring down the AAV.

All of those things have been used by the flyers to make them competitive.

The flyers , as well as other large market teams, have essentially lost their advantage over the smaller markets. This makes this league much more balance in terms of competitiveness.

So add Pronger and Add matt walker to your original cap and see how it comes out now.

This Deal will screw the flyers and big money teams for a long time. Gone are the days that teams with money have an advantage.

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12-11-2012, 07:22 PM
  #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
I don't see the big deal. That's how every union has worked, forever. Go against he union and you dig yourself a hole. Look no further than MLB players and scabs who stuck in the MLB during their strike; the stigma there lasted for a decade. They were ostracized. It's the risk you take.
I'm actually more concerned with Hartnell's comment and I like Hartnell.

One guy gets frustrated and makes some comments and we move directly to wondering whether teammates will protect him on the ice?

Or, you could behave like a grownup, realize it is frustration speaking and talk to the guy privately and give him a chance to get back on the bus and "clarify" himself in the media.

Throwing guys under the bus in any direction is bush league.

Let me be the coach of any player who wouldn't protect his teammate on the ice. I would demote him, strip his 'A', slash his ice time, and let him convince me he's ready to show his hockey DNA once again. I know players are frustrated as well, but hinting at allowing a guy to risk himself on the ice and not have his back. Get the hell out.

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12-11-2012, 07:31 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Hamrlik is just mad because he is at the end of his career and this lockout may end it. It is somewhat selfish to act the way he is acting. He doesn't give a crap about the new CBA because it will affect him very little. The guys it will affect are the guys with years to play under the CBA. Anyone (not just Hamrlik) who whines about not having a deal done just to get a deal done is silly. That is how you screw your fellow players (and potentially yourself). The point of the Union is to get the best deal possible, not just sign any deal in order to get back on the ice. I hate this lockout as much as the next, but just signing a deal because it will get people on the ice is silly.

For fans, it sucks to see this and sucks that it seems like Fehr is just playing hardball for no reason. But you have to look at the big picture. He is fighting to give the players a better deal. He isn't doing it to make a name for himself and he isn't doing it to piss of the owners or the fans. The players wanted a guy who will bargain hard for them and get them the best deal. Just giving in for the sake of getting the game back on the ice would be great for the fans, but not a smart move for the players. Hence, the lockout is still ongoing.
I agree with this. Hamrlik is thinking only of himself. Fehr and the players have to stay united and think of the big picture.

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12-11-2012, 07:36 PM
  #494
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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
I'm actually more concerned with Hartnell's comment and I like Hartnell.

One guy gets frustrated and makes some comments and we move directly to wondering whether teammates will protect him on the ice?

Or, you could behave like a grownup, realize it is frustration speaking and talk to the guy privately and give him a chance to get back on the bus and "clarify" himself in the media.

Throwing guys under the bus in any direction is bush league.

Let me be the coach of any player who wouldn't protect his teammate on the ice. I would demote him, strip his 'A', slash his ice time, and let him convince me he's ready to show his hockey DNA once again. I know players are frustrated as well, but hinting at allowing a guy to risk himself on the ice and not have his back. Get the hell out.
He wasn't making the comment about one of his own teammates, he was making the comment about an opponent. Almost all of the players on twitter have been saying a lot and showing a united front so I applaud players who speak out against players who think of only themselves. Hamrlik and Neuvirth are the only two who have made a comment like this so far and players will definitely remember, both teammates and opponents.

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12-11-2012, 07:51 PM
  #495
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
He wasn't making the comment about one of his own teammates, he was making the comment about an opponent. Almost all of the players on twitter have been saying a lot and showing a united front so I applaud players who speak out against players who think of only themselves. Hamrlik and Neuvirth are the only two who have made a comment like this so far and players will definitely remember, both teammates and opponents.
Talk about subjective.

Maybe you should read what he said.

If he thinks Fehr is ruining it for the players, then he is obligated to say something about it.

That being said- I understand why the players don't love it, but there is a right way to handle that and a wrong way.

Wondering out loud about putting a teammate in danger is not the answer.

Tow the line.


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12-11-2012, 07:59 PM
  #496
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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
Talk about subjective.

Maybe you should read what he said.

If he thinks Fehr is ruining it for the players, then he is obligated to say something about it.

That being said- I understand why the players don't love it, but there is a right way to handle that and a wrong way.

Wondering out loud about putting a teammate in danger is not the answer.

Tow the line. Bleet. Bleet.
The only reason he said anything is because of the impact of the lockout on him. And again, Hartnell wasn't talking about a teammate, he was talking about a player on an opposing team and wondering how they'd feel about him. It's not like Giroux made the comments Hamrlik did and Hartnell made the comments about Giroux, he's talking about a guy he has no affiliation with.

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12-11-2012, 08:17 PM
  #497
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
The only reason he said anything is because of the impact of the lockout on him.
Please, prove this.

Quote:
And again, Hartnell wasn't talking about a teammate, he was talking about a player on an opposing team and wondering how they'd feel about him.
No duh.

He said: ""I can't wait to see what his teammates do when guys go after him." Philly's Scott Hartnell"

Do you really think that going on record in a public medium, that wondering out loud, not even about your teammate, but a union mate, and hinting at the possibility his teammates may allow him to get his ass kicked is the right way to go about it?

It says something about Hartnell that I don't like. I don't care that Hamrlik plays for another team.

If any Flyer said it, the right way to go about it is to talk to the player privately, ask him to "clarify" in the media, I would be pretty annoyed if any NHLer turned to the Flyers teammates via media and wondered out loud: "I wonder if they're going to protect him on the ice." Our response should be: "They damn well better."

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12-11-2012, 08:23 PM
  #498
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
He wasn't making the comment about one of his own teammates, he was making the comment about an opponent. Almost all of the players on twitter have been saying a lot and showing a united front so I applaud players who speak out against players who think of only themselves. Hamrlik and Neuvirth are the only two who have made a comment like this so far and players will definitely remember, both teammates and opponents.
Don't kid yourself. They're only doing it because they care about how the deal will benefit them in the longer run, so ultimately they're doing it for themselves, as well. They just perceive this "united front" to be the best position to take at the moment, and the only difference between them and Hamrlik is that he disagrees with them in thinking this the best approach right now. He was thinking of himself as much as the next guy. His opinion showed absolutely nothing in the direction of being any more selfish than the others. In fact, he even suggested to have a vote, which is far more democratic than a "united front" facade (i.e. a cartel ). So he was clearly good with whatever the majority goes with, and not what he himself wanted.

edit: And I also don't see what difference it makes whether Hamrlik is Hartnell's teammate or not.

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12-11-2012, 09:13 PM
  #499
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Please, prove this.
He's 38 years old. He's at the end of his career, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out what he means.

Also, seems he's backtracking: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=411364

Big shock there.

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12-11-2012, 09:28 PM
  #500
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He's not backtracking, he's just explaining what he meant. In a normal conversation, he would've provided the original statements, and then maybe you'd disagree, be confused or even shocked. He'd probably see that and would say what he meant, and then the ball would be in your court again. Now, however, you get a couple of statements, the media creates a story, then they finally get back to him, and once he clarifies, a thing that could've easily been done in half a minute right from the get-go, we have another newsworthy story featured at TSN. I think it's just one of those things that have been taken out of context. Plus, I also see it was posted and translated on PuckDaddy originally, so I wouldn't put too much stock in it. It's probably in the right ballpark, but I'm sure they could've chosen different words that would more accurately portray the manner in which he was giving the original interview in Czech.

Whatever. And as for Hartnell and your comments on how he didn't say that about own of his teammates. Well, personally, I would have preferred that, because then at least he'd let it be known what he himself is planning on doing, but now he's just inciting others to leave Hamrlik to fend for himself. I don't really care what he said and don't know how he said it, just goofing around or actually meaning it, but if you do try and take his words as meant seriously, I don't see how saying that about a teammate would make a (negative) difference.

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