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Old
12-11-2012, 08:25 PM
  #926
The Saurus
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Originally Posted by Pyromaniac3 View Post
Allows Reimer to develop. Luongo is not our goalie for the future. He is a stop gap that allows Leafs to get into playoffs, while developing Reimer to eventually take over the spot.
If Roberto is traded to the Leafs, he will be the goalie of the future. Look at his contract.

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Old
12-11-2012, 08:30 PM
  #927
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Trading first round picks is an easy way to ensure you're at the bottom of the standings in four to five years again. Your buddy is very short-sighted.



Matt Frattin has the work ethic to go along with his natural skills to be a consistent 25 goal guy in the NHL. I've been watching him closely at Marlies games and he has a knack of going to the right offensive lanes at the right time. His shot is lethal and his hockey IQ is great as well. If I had to compare him to someone, it would be a better skating Michael Ryder.



I can't see Brian Burke letting go of any NHL ready prospects like Nazem Kadri or Matt Frattin. I also can't see him parting with guys like Tyler Biggs who he drafted and fits the mold of the team he is trying to build.

So no Matt Frattin or Tyler Biggs.

Tyler Bozak, Matt Finn (begrudgingly, I must admit), Carter Ashton + 2nd.

I believe that's more than fair.
I think Bozak is a horrible centerpiece. Decent player, just a lousy centerpiece to a goaltender of Luongo's caliber. Ashton is a low grade prospect with little chance of success and the 2nd is a 2nd. the only appealing part of this package is Matt Finn. And even then, would he be enough for Gillis to ship Luongo? I don't think so.

In your opinion, this deal is more than fair. In my opinion, Vancouver gets nothing significant back at all for a very valuable goaltender. Horrible asset management if Gillis did this.

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Old
12-11-2012, 08:39 PM
  #928
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Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
I think Bozak is a horrible centerpiece. Decent player, just a lousy centerpiece to a goaltender of Luongo's caliber. Ashton is a low grade prospect with little chance of success and the 2nd is a 2nd. the only appealing part of this package is Matt Finn. And even then, would he be enough for Gillis to ship Luongo? I don't think so.

In your opinion, this deal is more than fair. In my opinion, Vancouver gets nothing significant back at all for a very valuable goaltender. Horrible asset management if Gillis did this.
Value is subjective. I've been following Matt Finn and Carter Ashton since the start of the year. Ashton is far from bad: he's a big guy, is an excellent skater, and is willing to consistently throw the body around. He's also quite good defensively. He'd anchor your third line in the future, along with Tyler Bozak, who is also very adept defensively and offensively.

The Canucks would be getting three pieces with great value attached to them along with a pick that is more than likely going to be in the 31-35 range. The pick could add a fourth significant asset and in a single trade you could add a lot to your youth.

I think that's a great return.

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12-11-2012, 08:55 PM
  #929
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Value is subjective. I've been following Matt Finn and Carter Ashton since the start of the year. Ashton is far from bad: he's a big guy, is an excellent skater, and is willing to consistently throw the body around. He's also quite good defensively. He'd anchor your third line in the future, along with Tyler Bozak, who is also very adept defensively and offensively.

The Canucks would be getting three pieces with great value attached to them along with a pick that is more than likely going to be in the 31-35 range. The pick could add a fourth significant asset and in a single trade you could add a lot to your youth.

I think that's a great return.
All these players have a gigantic question mark attached to them. A much larger and uncertain question mark than Roberto is currently carrying with his contract.

You can't expect to receive such a valuable piece like Luongo for players that are far from a sure thing. tyler bozak is the only player that's been able to make the NHL out of all of these and he would be our 3rd line center. Does it really seem reasonable to you that Vancouver is receiving a player that is about to be a UFA, a couple of mid-range prospects and a 2nd rd pick for Luongo? Really? I can't believe that...

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12-11-2012, 08:56 PM
  #930
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Value is subjective. I've been following Matt Finn and Carter Ashton since the start of the year. Ashton is far from bad: he's a big guy, is an excellent skater, and is willing to consistently throw the body around. He's also quite good defensively. He'd anchor your third line in the future, along with Tyler Bozak, who is also very adept defensively and offensively.

The Canucks would be getting three pieces with great value attached to them along with a pick that is more than likely going to be in the 31-35 range. The pick could add a fourth significant asset and in a single trade you could add a lot to your youth.

I think that's a great return.
I'm consistently stunned by what people on here say.

You think it is not only likely, but in fact "more than likely", that TML will finish in the bottom 5 of the league... if you add Roberto Luongo to your roster.

I will wager right now that TML probably will do better this year than they did last year - with the current team roster. And if they finish a single spot higher in the standings then they don't pick 31-35. So to say it is likely that that will happen is, at best, questionable. To say it is MORE than likely, is, at best, dishonest. To say that it is more than likely to happen if you add an elite goaltender to the roster... well I just don't know what to say.

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12-11-2012, 08:56 PM
  #931
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liles
bozak
macarthur
ashton
colborne

luongo
raymond
kassian
2nd

hopefully the deal looks close to this it won't though cause vancouver gets bent over here

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12-11-2012, 09:00 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
I'm consistently stunned by what people on here say.

You think it is not only likely, but in fact "more than likely", that TML will finish in the bottom 5 of the league... if you add Roberto Luongo to your roster.

I will wager right now that TML probably will do better this year than they did last year - with the current team roster. And if they finish a single spot higher in the standings then they don't pick 31-35. So to say it is likely that that will happen is, at best, questionable. To say it is MORE than likely, is, at best, dishonest. To say that it is more than likely to happen if you add an elite goaltender to the roster... well I just don't know what to say.
I should have noted that I expect the trade to go down next summer, after the lockout is resolved and before the draft. I mentioned that in an earlier post and forgot to add it on to that one.

Tyler Bozak would likely be re-signed to an extension before Mike Gillis would accept a deal, though.

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12-11-2012, 09:01 PM
  #933
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
liles
bozak
macarthur
ashton
colborne

luongo
raymond
kassian
2nd

hopefully the deal looks close to this it won't though cause vancouver gets bent over here
Is this for real...?

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Old
12-11-2012, 09:03 PM
  #934
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
Trading first round picks is an easy way to ensure you're at the bottom of the standings in four to five years again. Your buddy is very short-sighted.



Matt Frattin has the work ethic to go along with his natural skills to be a consistent 25 goal guy in the NHL. I've been watching him closely at Marlies games and he has a knack of going to the right offensive lanes at the right time. His shot is lethal and his hockey IQ is great as well. If I had to compare him to someone, it would be a better skating Michael Ryder.



I can't see Brian Burke letting go of any NHL ready prospects like Nazem Kadri or Matt Frattin. I also can't see him parting with guys like Tyler Biggs who he drafted and fits the mold of the team he is trying to build.

So no Matt Frattin or Tyler Biggs.

Tyler Bozak, Matt Finn (begrudgingly, I must admit), Carter Ashton + 2nd.

I believe that's more than fair.
that is definitely not enough and not meeting the Canucks needs. If this is the case, Vancouver will just either play luongo in a 1a,1b scenario, deal CS, or find another team that is willing to meet the demands.

Bozak is a UFA soon, and has put up dismal numbers playing with 2 pretty good offensive players. He should have had more assists by accident if he was actually a top six player. I would accept bozak as an addition...but not the centre piece. If your going to deal in almost all futures, you'll need this years first. Finn is a nice piece, but is not enough value to make up for the lack of it in the other parts of this deal.

Burke may not want to give up the pieces that are needed to get Luongo, but if he truly wants him...he'll do what it takes. Just because Brian "Blowhard" Burke doesn't want to pay fair value...it does not mean that the price tag drops.

And while the length of his contract does hurt his value a tiny bit, the fact that his cap hit is so low for a goalie of his calibre makes up for it. That contract was designed with outs, and it was designed for him to retire when the money runs out. Toronto could waive him. Toronto could buy him out six thousand times over, and still not break a sweat. For all you know, Lu could be playing at an elite level until he's in his forties. Brodeur is still playing well...and he's forty. Granted he's not top five in league anymore, but he's still one of the better starters out there, and he makes two mill less then Lu does at a high end. I dont have the exact numbers in front of me, otherwise i could tell you how much it actually was.

The guy is in his mid thirties, its not like his career is going to be over tomorrow. Its not like NHL players magically start to decline and turn into pumpkins at the age of thirty or something.

Goalies are different animals then skaters are. They dont play the same bump and grind game that the forwards and even Dmen do. Their career can last a lot longer because of this. Eddie Belfour, who was one T.O's greatest goaltenders was signed to that team at the age of...wait for it...37. during the years that he played there, Toronto made it past the first round every year and was a hot spot for free agents.

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Old
12-11-2012, 09:06 PM
  #935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
liles
bozak
macarthur
ashton
colborne

luongo
raymond
kassian
2nd

hopefully the deal looks close to this it won't though cause vancouver gets bent over here
thats one way of putting it. Why doesn't van add kesler and burrows and you can throw in another handful of scrap metal.

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Old
12-11-2012, 09:08 PM
  #936
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Just because Brian "Blowhard" Burke
I have to say I stopped reading there. Disregard for Toronto / Brian Burke is clearly clouding your judgement.

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Old
12-11-2012, 09:12 PM
  #937
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All these players have a gigantic question mark attached to them. A much larger and uncertain question mark than Roberto is currently carrying with his contract.

You can't expect to receive such a valuable piece like Luongo for players that are far from a sure thing. tyler bozak is the only player that's been able to make the NHL out of all of these and he would be our 3rd line center. Does it really seem reasonable to you that Vancouver is receiving a player that is about to be a UFA, a couple of mid-range prospects and a 2nd rd pick for Luongo? Really? I can't believe that...
I'm sorry but Tyler Bozak, Carter Ashton or Matt Finn will most definitely not screw a team over if they decide to play past their expiry date. Roberto Luongo's contract could have long lasting implications on cap management strategies for whomever acquires him: ability to re-sign key UFAs or RFAs, lasting cap hit for an aging goaltender with declining abilities, etc.

Don't kid yourself. The team that accepts Roberto in a trade is taking on a massive risk, much more negative than a couple of good prospects playing in the AHL / OHL.

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Old
12-11-2012, 09:18 PM
  #938
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I have to say I stopped reading there. Disregard for Toronto / Brian Burke is clearly clouding your judgement.
Seriously? He is that. Reilly, in his mind was the first overall pick? the amount of excuses he made for overpaying Connoly. The excuses he made for not closing a deal for a goaltender at the deadline? What did he say about not wanting to do a rebuild?

I will admit that toronto ranks eighth on my favorite teams list, but i still want them to succeed and i still wan them to be a dominant team like they used to be. Back in the early 2000's Toronto almost won the presidents trophy, they almost made it to the Stanley Cup. They did these things on the back of a good goaltender.

Id like to see hockey teams in Canada be powerhouses again. I am a fan of Canadian Hockey(and pittsburgh), and would like to see all those teams compete again instead of being the bottom feeders like most of the teams were last year, with the exception of Van and OTT.

you can say that I have a disregard for Burke and Toronto, but Burke has effectively ****ed up that team. Its not even like the guy drafts well either.

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12-11-2012, 09:20 PM
  #939
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I'm sorry but Tyler Bozak, Carter Ashton or Matt Finn will most definitely not screw a team over if they decide to play past their expiry date. Roberto Luongo's contract could have long lasting implications on cap management strategies for whomever acquires him: ability to re-sign key UFAs or RFAs, lasting cap hit for an aging goaltender with declining abilities, etc.

Don't kid yourself. The team that accepts Roberto in a trade is taking on a massive risk, much more negative than a couple of good prospects playing in the AHL / OHL.
They're really not. Luongo could be waived at any time...or traded in the final years of his contract if he hasn't retired by then.

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12-11-2012, 09:22 PM
  #940
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
I'm sorry but Tyler Bozak, Carter Ashton or Matt Finn will most definitely not screw a team over if they decide to play past their expiry date. Roberto Luongo's contract could have long lasting implications on cap management strategies for whomever acquires him: ability to re-sign key UFAs or RFAs, lasting cap hit for an aging goaltender with declining abilities, etc.

Don't kid yourself. The team that accepts Roberto in a trade is taking on a massive risk, much more negative than a couple of good prospects playing in the AHL / OHL.
No, sorry but this conversation will go nowhere because I find you to be so very wrong.

Regardless of his age and contract (which DO effect his value, just not as much as you lead people on), Luongo is an elite talent in the NHL that deserves better than a 'couple of good prospects playing in the AHL/OHL'. What a joke.

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12-11-2012, 09:23 PM
  #941
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And don 't get me wrong, they are decent pieces...however they are complimentary pieces to a player of Luongo's caliber. This trade needs something more significant for Vancouver for it to make sense for us. if you can't possibly fathom that idea i'm sorry but you are way off.

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12-11-2012, 09:29 PM
  #942
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
liles
bozak
macarthur
ashton
colborne

luongo
raymond
kassian
2nd

hopefully the deal looks close to this it won't though cause vancouver gets bent over here
Take out Kassian and Bozak, then add Jake Gardiner

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12-11-2012, 09:29 PM
  #943
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And don 't get me wrong, they are decent pieces...however they are complimentary pieces to a player of Luongo's caliber. This trade needs something more significant for Vancouver for it to make sense for us. if you can't possibly fathom that idea i'm sorry but you are way off.
Indeed. And that's fine. If your views represent Gillis's views then there simply won't be a trade between Toronto and Vancouver.

But there aren't very many teams that are looking for a goaltender. No Toronto means one less possible destination and increases the likelihood of Roberto staying in Vancouver.

If assets are your main concern and not ridding yourself of that contract, then Vancouver should aim to trade Cory Schneider instead.

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12-11-2012, 09:32 PM
  #944
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Is this for real...?
no this was my attempt to see how bad of a proposal i could possibly make this is as bad as i can do without a new CBA

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12-11-2012, 09:42 PM
  #945
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Indeed. And that's fine. If your views represent Gillis's views then there simply won't be a trade between Toronto and Vancouver.

But there aren't very many teams that are looking for a goaltender. No Toronto means one less possible destination and increases the likelihood of Roberto staying in Vancouver.

If assets are your main concern and not ridding yourself of that contract, then Vancouver should aim to trade Cory Schneider instead.

It's still amazing to me you believe these C-graded prospects are enough.

the reality is if Burke represents YOUR views, then there simply won't be a trade between van and Toronto.

I haven't even made a proposal...

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12-11-2012, 09:43 PM
  #946
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no this was my attempt to see how bad of a proposal i could possibly make this is as bad as i can do without a new CBA
phew!

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12-11-2012, 09:47 PM
  #947
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phew!
what did ya think did I succeed or is there room to make it worse?

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12-11-2012, 09:49 PM
  #948
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what did ya think did I succeed or is there room to make it worse?
i think you did well!

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12-11-2012, 09:49 PM
  #949
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what did ya think did I succeed or is there room to make it worse?
well...you could throw kesler and burrows in there for komisarek and a 2nd lol. sorry i got shirty with you, i totally thought you were serious.

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12-11-2012, 09:58 PM
  #950
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well...you could throw kesler and burrows in there for komisarek and a 2nd lol. sorry i got shirty with you, i totally thought you were serious.
no although i did use phaneuf trade for reference and attempt to form what the equivalent would be with vancouver

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