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Phoenix LXVI: Get Your Kicks On Thread LXVI

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Old
12-12-2012, 12:30 AM
  #776
aqib
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
Roc was concerned about Jamison's answer to the question about any of his investors being "hockey" people. Jamison responded "yes and no". Roc was trying to get Jamison to leak some clues as to who's in his investor group and he didn't bite.

Jamison did on and explained it's about putting the right people in the right position..... and the role of ownership is to support that front line management. He seems to be fine with the on-ice side of the franchise right now.

EDIT: I was in error above. Roc did clarify later what he was referring to in that tweet. It was about the lockout.
Apparently he deleted the original one and maybe some others based on what I heard form people who were on his twitter earlier. Listening to Jamison I didn't really get anything to indicate he was or wasn't making progress.

Any word from Ken Jones on how his crew was doing in getting signatures?

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12-12-2012, 01:57 AM
  #777
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Tell that to the all the empty seats at Copps Coliseum, the Ricoh Centre in Toronto and the Abbotsford Entertainment & Sports Complex in BC. You get into large Canadian markets like Hamilton, Toronto & the Lower Mainland the AHL simply doesnt cut it. People want steak. Let alone a market like Phoenix which has been living on a steady diet of it, albeit under-done for the past 17yrs. Their not going to go for that. Suicide to put an AHL franchise in that market after all thats gone down.
I think this Abbotsford market is more just stupidity than anything else, why would you put the farm team of the flames in Canuck Territory? I bet if you slap the Canucks farm team down there the place would sell out much faster and better. Look at the games when the canucks farm team is in town, you can't get tickets and its all sold out so fast.

ergo....if you put a team that isn't the minor league affilate of the citys biggest NHL rival you would probably do better....it was a stupid idea to begin with

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12-12-2012, 03:43 AM
  #778
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Originally Posted by aqib View Post
Apparently he deleted the original one and maybe some others based on what I heard form people who were on his twitter earlier. Listening to Jamison I didn't really get anything to indicate he was or wasn't making progress.

Any word from Ken Jones on how his crew was doing in getting signatures?
I wouldn't trust second hand opinions of twitter statements.... too much can be open to interpretation in 140 characters (having to edit my previous post as an example).

Nothing new to the Ken Jones watch. My guess he's still going to the library each day.

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12-12-2012, 06:53 AM
  #779
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Phoenix actually already has arena football. But they play out of the US Airways Arena in downtown Phoenix.

Arizona Rattlers
The Rattlers may be the only viable option for a secondary tenant, not knowing how tied they are to US Airways Arena. It's at least worth a phone call to see if they'd be interested in a move to Jobing.com Arena.

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12-12-2012, 07:41 AM
  #780
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Nothing new to the Ken Jones watch. My guess he's still going to the library each day.
Takes a lot of dedication.

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12-12-2012, 07:42 AM
  #781
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The Rattlers may be the only viable option for a secondary tenant, not knowing how tied they are to US Airways Arena. It's at least worth a phone call to see if they'd be interested in a move to Jobing.com Arena.
They won't move, they got enough of an attendance problem as it is now without going to Glendale and making it worse.

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12-12-2012, 07:43 AM
  #782
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Tell that to the all the empty seats at Copps Coliseum, the Ricoh Centre in Toronto and the Abbotsford Entertainment & Sports Complex in BC. You get into large Canadian markets like Hamilton, Toronto & the Lower Mainland the AHL simply doesnt cut it. People want steak. Let alone a market like Phoenix which has been living on a steady diet of it, albeit under-done for the past 17yrs. Their not going to go for that. Suicide to put an AHL franchise in that market after all thats gone down.
I think that has something to do with the fact that those areas have the BIG league in their backyard. I'll take Montreal for exemple, they would put Bulldogs in Laval and it won't gather 5k per game, I can tell you that. Yes Bulldogs played a game in Bell Centre earlier this season and gathered 18k or so, but we're in lockout.

So I think it really is, why take AHL when you already have NHL.

Here in QC, we don't have NHL, we don't have AHL but we have QJMHL and we support it a lot. Tho, tomorrow Nordiques are back and Remparts will go to the old days of roughly 5000 per game while today they gather double in beggining of the season and triple as we get closer to playoffs.

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12-12-2012, 10:28 AM
  #783
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I am by no means a supporter of what the CoG is doing right now, and I'm a proud Pegger, but this is off base in terms of your point here:

1) The core fan base of the Coyotes, those who keep supporting the team during all the turmoil, those STHs, are very likely more than knowledgeable about hockey enough to know there will be a difference between the NHL and AHL.

2) I love hockey. I enjoyed the Moose (not as much as ABD though ) but I never felt anything remotely similar to the AHL club as I did (and currently do) with the Jets. The Jets are the buzz of the town, the buzz of the country, very hugely supported by and large (the Jets logo is more common than the Canadian flag in Winnipeg) but the Moose were nothing like that. Collectively, the city didn't care about the moose the same way it does with the Jets.

Not even close.

Sure Manitoba was among the tops in AHL attendance with high (relative) ticket prices, but bottom in collective mindshare. It simply wasn't the NHL. How do you think hockey fans would have felt if our AHL team was known as the Winnipeg Jets?

3) I think the whole idea of AHL hockey in AZ is both good and bad as an idea; good in the sense that it is seemingly much more plausible from hypothetical financial sanity that the NHL club. But bad because if you're a Yotes fan, it's a slap in the face. Conversely, If you're opposed to the Yotes existence in AZ, its destined to be a bigger failure since "no one supports the coyotes"

I don't see what the reasoning really is behind it other than belittling sentiments.

It's fine from a potential tenant replacement perspective, but to give the the connotations of "hey it will do better than the NHL duh they're an AHL market" is off base. It might even do worse since there may be even less interest for it, just like pretty much any other city with an AHL club not named Hershey. AHL is great hockey. I was happy and felt fortunate we had the Moose. I'm not anti-AHL. But to suggest fans in AZ wont know the difference or attendance would rise; do you honestly think it will perform any better? Would it even be a good replacement from a benefit-to-Glendale and Jobing.com perspective? Maybe, maybe not.

But the way you said it isn't right man. If you're a jets fan, you know what relocation bs feels like.
This is an amazing post sir.

His posts are usually poorly disguised digs at a fan base and area of the world that he does not understand nor does he take the time to understand. It was meant to blow off some steam as a person who wants relocation and to rip on a fan base that is reeling from the past 3+ years.

What you point out in your post is exactly how I see the very few 'hostile' Jets fans that tend to ruin it for the logical level headed Jets fans that make up most of their followers.

Everyone knows what the poster suggested is not even close to accurate or a well thought out good idea not warranting a response, you were kind enough to say what was probably on a majority of our minds when reading his post and put it out there.

Thank you again for posting this.

Glendale hockey fans and AZ hockey fans know the difference between an NHL and AHL team. To suggest otherwise shows just how clueless some people are about Coyotes fans in general.

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12-12-2012, 10:42 AM
  #784
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Let's say that Jamison is actually intent on buying the team (suspend your disbelief for a moment).

Let's say that the season is saved and will start Dec.31st (suspend your disbelief for a moment).

The failed referendum attempt will have until the end of Dec, right? Let's assume that thing doesn't have a chance in hell of succeeding.

What does the NHL do? Just operate the team for a month? What if the Jamison thing falls through?

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12-12-2012, 10:44 AM
  #785
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
Let's say that Jamison is actually intent on buying the team (suspend your disbelief for a moment).

Let's say that the season is saved and will start Dec.31st (suspend your disbelief for a moment).

The failed referendum attempt will have until the end of Dec, right? Let's assume that thing doesn't have a chance in hell of succeeding.

What does the NHL do? Just operate the team for a month? What if the Jamison thing falls through?
NHL has been managing the Coyotes for what, three years? Why can't they for another month?

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12-12-2012, 10:49 AM
  #786
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NHL has been managing the Coyotes for what, three years? Why can't they for another month?
They've been getting 25m a year to do so. This year there is no payment and even if the JEG thing is looking really positive, who knows what wrench will come flying out of left field to jam up the gears? I guess they'd really only have to eat losses for a "half" season, anyway, if worst comes to worst. Seattle might have shovels in the ground, QC is already done digging, and So.Ont. is gearing up, by the sounds of it. Is this the NHL's plan? Home the JEG thing works out, and if it falls to pieces just eat some losses until May and then sell for relo?

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12-12-2012, 10:50 AM
  #787
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I know people who go to Coyotes game who never went to Roadrunners or Mustangs games. I suspect every market has people like that who will go to the NHL game because it is THE league, but consider minor leagues for other people and not something they would stoop to support.

When I moved out here in the 70s, I got Roadrunner tix. When the Mustangs replaced them, I got Mustang tix. When the Yotes came I got Yotes tix. When the Runners came back, for two years I had full season tix to both Yotes & Runners, and made roughly 70 games each season (there were about 8 games each season that overlapped and I went to the Yotes game and handed the 'Runners game off to family & friends).

There was a hardcore base of a few thousand fans who attended those Roadrunners game. Fewer who attended the Mustangs games. Both were blue collar, average Joe atmospheres. You didn't see ladies in fancy dresses or men in suits doing business deals on their phones down low, you saw fans wearing minor league jerseys and hats.

I suspect a lot of those fans AREN'T the ones sitting on the glass or in the $80 seats in Glendale every game; I suspect many go to whatever they can afford to go to.

When the 'runners and Mustang played at VMC at 19th & McDowell, there was really nothing around there to do except park and go into the arena. Other than the two weeks of the State Fair. No cool bars or shops or restaurants nearby. Not the greatest neighborhood in Arizona but not the worst either. But people went.

Where jobing.com is and where US Airways is, those locations, in comparison to where VMC is, are heavenly.

Part of the problem pro sports franchises face at least in the USA if not Canada, is that they all face much stiffer competition now and into the future than they did even 15 years ago or further back.

There's a lot of competition for those eyeballs, from tv, the internet, streaming media that wasn't there at all 15 years ago.

We have a CHL team in Prescott Valley. We're planning on going up during the Winter school break to catch a couple games. I doubt many hockey fans in the Valley will do that but I know some do regularly.

If the Yotes left, if we got an AHL team in town (be it VMC, US AIRWAYS Glendale or even the ICe Den in Scottsdale), I'd go watch them. Because I love hockey. Maybe wouldn't break my back to try and make every game, but I'd go to a lot of them. But I wouldn't be confused as to what it was and what it was not. No one down here would confuse minor league hockey for the NHL, and certainly even the terminally clueless would catch on in the first three minutes of the first game they attended.

If I had been living in the 'peg all these years, I'd have been one of the fans who was at every Moose game I could get to, even if it meant sitting in the cheapest seat in the building. And I'd have scraped or downsized the family summer vacations and delayed buying a new car to scrounge up the money for Jets tickets when the Thrashers moved up there.

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12-12-2012, 10:52 AM
  #788
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Time for the NHL owners to say in no uncertain terms to the NHLPA that they will be eliminating the 5-6 teams that have no hope of ever making a nickel. In return the players, those that still have jobs after the purge, may receive the value of their present contracts. All other provisions such as FA, five year max contracts with no more than a 5% variance in yr/yr pay etc. etc. will be the ongoing model. Lets face it the league is in a world of financial hurt, in part promulgated by the revenue sharing clauses with the weak sisters of the league. They have the opportunity to clean this up once and for all right now! So GB, time for the cleaver to come out and behead all of the wounded animals under your domain, Coyotes included!!!

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12-12-2012, 11:04 AM
  #789
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Time for the NHL owners to say in no uncertain terms to the NHLPA that they will be eliminating the 5-6 teams that have no hope of ever making a nickel. In return the players, those that still have jobs after the purge, may receive the value of their present contracts. All other provisions such as FA, five year max contracts with no more than a 5% variance in yr/yr pay etc. etc. will be the ongoing model. Lets face it the league is in a world of financial hurt, in part promulgated by the revenue sharing clauses with the weak sisters of the league. They have the opportunity to clean this up once and for all right now! So GB, time for the cleaver to come out and behead all of the wounded animals under your domain, Coyotes included!!!
I'm all for that, but where do 24 NHL team owners get the cash to buy out the 5 or 6 weak sisters of the NHL to put them out of business? The lunacy of this whole mess is that the NHL somehow thinks the Coyotes are "worth" $170 million, and recent sales have shown that crappy teams in awful markets are still worth about $100 million or so. I don't see NHL owners coughing up $600 million + to get rid of the Coyotes, Blue Jackets, Predators, Hurricans, Panthers and Lightnings any time soon.

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12-12-2012, 11:10 AM
  #790
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They've been getting 25m a year to do so. This year there is no payment and even if the JEG thing is looking really positive, who knows what wrench will come flying out of left field to jam up the gears? I guess they'd really only have to eat losses for a "half" season, anyway, if worst comes to worst. Seattle might have shovels in the ground, QC is already done digging, and So.Ont. is gearing up, by the sounds of it. Is this the NHL's plan? Home the JEG thing works out, and if it falls to pieces just eat some losses until May and then sell for relo?
Time for everyone to realize that GJ works for GB! He is going through all of these secretive dealings, interviews and obfuscations all in the name of buying the NHL time. Regardless of the money the COG wants to give this franchise cannot or will not ever make anyone any money! It is laughable how long this jamison charade has gone on. His supposed claims that he is close to a deal is so disingenuous to all of the folks who are the real fans. Sure, they want to have some hope, i get that, but please folks have a little common sense and realize this is nothing but a show. Perhaps the Jan31st date will be the date that GJ`s bluff is finally called, but not likely! THere will be new extensions etc.etc. What the newly minted Mayor and Council need to do is to find a way to extinguish the deal or garner enough votes to make the Referendum a reality. Enough of this hoax, the fans of the Coyotes deserve more transparency and truth.

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12-12-2012, 11:13 AM
  #791
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I'm all for that, but where do 24 NHL team owners get the cash to buy out the 5 or 6 weak sisters of the NHL to put them out of business? The lunacy of this whole mess is that the NHL somehow thinks the Coyotes are "worth" $170 million, and recent sales have shown that crappy teams in awful markets are still worth about $100 million or so. I don't see NHL owners coughing up $600 million + to get rid of the Coyotes, Blue Jackets, Predators, Hurricans, Panthers and Lightnings any time soon.
Oh yeah the money, that is a problem! Somehow the money may seem minor at some date in the future when these teams all die a slow agonizing death all at the expense of the existing money makers!

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12-12-2012, 11:27 AM
  #792
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I'm all for that, but where do 24 NHL team owners get the cash to buy out the 5 or 6 weak sisters of the NHL to put them out of business? The lunacy of this whole mess is that the NHL somehow thinks the Coyotes are "worth" $170 million, and recent sales have shown that crappy teams in awful markets are still worth about $100 million or so. I don't see NHL owners coughing up $600 million + to get rid of the Coyotes, Blue Jackets, Predators, Hurricans, Panthers and Lightnings any time soon.
According to the NHL constitution, there are two (2) general ways to terminate a franchise, and neither one of them involves the NHL "buying" them out.

1- Voluntary withdrawal. The problem with this would be, how do you get the teams you mentioned to voluntarily withdraw from the league, unless you pay them to go away. Since these teams are supposedly losing money anyways, the NHL could offer them each $25M in cash as this might be the only positive money these owners ever do see. Don't offer them franchise value. Or you could tell them they are cut off from revenue sharing or they will never get the ASG or something similar that would cause them to lose even more money, so they would give up and go away. Not exactly a friendly way of doing business with your partners, so no, I don't see any teams doing a Voluntary withdrawal.

or

2- Involuntary withdrawal. This would happen if the said team breaks any of the rules as put in the constitution. IE: If they are late with their dues. Now there are two rules that IMO probably every team in the NHL is in violation of, but is being ignored by Bettman. These rules have to do with ANY employee of the team betting on games or having an office hockey pool on the premisses. IMO there isn't a team in the NHL where people working in the front offices aren't having a friendly hockey pool. But again, proving this and actually following thru on terminating a franchise because of this is very unlikely.

So..... basically we are stuck with the teams we have until those owners have had enough of losing money and sell them to a different market. ATL ---> WPG

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12-12-2012, 11:29 AM
  #793
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This is an amazing post sir.

His posts are usually poorly disguised digs at a fan base and area of the world that he does not understand nor does he take the time to understand. It was meant to blow off some steam as a person who wants relocation and to rip on a fan base that is reeling from the past 3+ years.

What you point out in your post is exactly how I see the very few 'hostile' Jets fans that tend to ruin it for the logical level headed Jets fans that make up most of their followers.

Everyone knows what the poster suggested is not even close to accurate or a well thought out good idea not warranting a response, you were kind enough to say what was probably on a majority of our minds when reading his post and put it out there.

Thank you again for posting this.

Glendale hockey fans and AZ hockey fans know the difference between an NHL and AHL team. To suggest otherwise shows just how clueless some people are about Coyotes fans in general.
When Minnesota lost the NHL Northstars then entered the AHL as the Moose.When they returned to the NHL the AHL Moose moved to Winnipeg after the NHL Jets left Winnipeg for Pheonix.Clearly this is an option IF the Yotes leave and somewhere in time Glendale is able to get an NHL team back under better conditions. Grow the game a little till the time is right.Just sayin.

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12-12-2012, 11:38 AM
  #794
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When Minnesota lost the NHL Northstars then entered the AHL as the Moose.When they returned to the NHL the AHL Moose moved to Winnipeg after the NHL Jets left Winnipeg for Pheonix.Clearly this is an option IF the Yotes leave and somewhere in time Glendale is able to get an NHL team back under better conditions. Grow the game a little till the time is right.Just sayin.
Truth be told, Winnipeg never got an AHL team thinking it was a tool or a stepping stone to get back in the NHL. They got the Moose to fill 42 dates at the MTS Centre with something. Having an AHL team means nothing to the NHL as to the viability of NHL hockey in any market.

If the Coyotes were to leave, and someone was enticed to put an AHL team in Glendale, it would be done as a business decision to at least fill those dates with something. It would have nothing to do with growing the game or getting the NHL back. AHL hockey is just so different then NHL hockey as far as the demographic that goes to the games and the money involved.

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12-12-2012, 11:42 AM
  #795
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What does the NHL do? Just operate the team for a month? What if the Jamison thing falls through?
If Jamison is unable to complete the deal and there is a season, then the NHL has to absorb the loss from this year. The new COG won't pay $25 million, or whatever the loss is, for the season. In May, the NHL would then find an owner who will want to relocate, and add the loss to either the final cost or as part of the relocation fee, and be done with.

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12-12-2012, 11:50 AM
  #796
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I think this Abbotsford market is more just stupidity than anything else, why would you put the farm team of the flames in Canuck Territory? I bet if you slap the Canucks farm team down there the place would sell out much faster and better. Look at the games when the canucks farm team is in town, you can't get tickets and its all sold out so fast...it was a stupid idea to begin with
Yes I agree, beyond idiocy really, the farm team for one of the Canucks biggest rivals trying to make a go of it out here? Its nuts, on top of which the Heat have to pay travel subsidies to the incoming AHL franchises for all home games. Hamilton's affiliation is with Montreal of course, the Leafs backyard, and meanwhile in Toronto, the Marlies, playing out of the Ricoh Centre located on the CNE grounds arent exactly packing the joint to the rafters, and no one could claim Southern Ontario or the Lower Mainland which includes Abbotsford arent hockey hotbeds. Theres just no way an AHL franchise in Glendale would fly.

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I think that has something to do with the fact that those areas have the BIG league in their backyard. I'll take Montreal for exemple, they would put Bulldogs in Laval and it won't gather 5k per game, I can tell you that. Yes Bulldogs played a game in Bell Centre earlier this season and gathered 18k or so, but we're in lockout.
Ya, and Hartford's another example of that. Not the greatest attendance for the AHL after the NHL's exit. Really only Winnipeg's been an exception to the rule with the Moose, that particular market however is beyond unique. Its isolated geographically, small, hockey & the Blue Bombers pretty much a religion.

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What does the NHL do? Just operate the team for a month? What if the Jamison thing falls through?
If by some miracle the Lockout ends over the next week (the 2 sides are meeting today apparently) or so, a 48 game schedule commencing mid-January and Jamisons' unable to close (all kinds of obstacles facing him as we know) then sure, the NHL will simply play out the string, continue running & funding the franchise through the spring. Depending on what the temperature reading might be with the new Mayor & Council, whether or not the JIG has completely cratered, either sell for relo or extend the AMUL for yet another season.

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Time for the NHL owners to say in no uncertain terms to the NHLPA that they will be eliminating the 5-6 teams that have no hope of ever making a nickel.
Not happenin mesa and you know that. Contraction simply isnt an option the current regime even wants to consider.

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12-12-2012, 12:25 PM
  #797
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Winnipeg did not get an AHL team to replace the Jets ...... They bought an IHL team (Minnesota Moose) and played in the old Winnipeg Arena in the IHL.

Then they went on from there to build the Arena and move to the AHL.

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12-12-2012, 12:30 PM
  #798
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Let's say that Jamison is actually intent on buying the team (suspend your disbelief for a moment).

Let's say that the season is saved and will start Dec.31st (suspend your disbelief for a moment).

The failed referendum attempt will have until the end of Dec, right? Let's assume that thing doesn't have a chance in hell of succeeding.

What does the NHL do? Just operate the team for a month? What if the Jamison thing falls through?
IMHO if the lockout ends prior to the end of January deadline for Jamison, he does not have any, but any reasons left to not conclude the purchase of the Coyotes.

If NHL checked his background or his investors background, and he can't close a deal with the league between the end of the lockout and January 31st (given the lockout does not end on January 30rd of something like that).

It's getting too late to claim for Jamison he's tying up the ties and securing everything, after December 27th we will know if there is a referendum or not so that will be behind him, and after that date anything LEGIT stoping Jamison from buying the Coyotes will be the lockout, THE ONLY THING. If he doesn't have the cash by then, I really hope for US and you Coyotes fans the league doesn't sell to him, because honestly, that won't be a very positive sign of a strong ownership...thing that Coyotes need to remain in AZ for good.

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12-12-2012, 12:41 PM
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Winnipeg did not get an AHL team to replace the Jets ...... They bought an IHL team (Minnesota Moose) and played in the old Winnipeg Arena in the IHL.

Then they went on from there to build the Arena and move to the AHL.
Correct,Mark Chipman has stated that if not for the Moose fans supporting the team and keeping the diehard fans interested he and his group would not have built the MTS Centre and gone after an NHL franchise.He rewarded those same fans by allowing Moose season ticket holders to purchase season tickets before the general public for Jets 2.0 Obviously having the Moose was worth while to Winnipeg in getting another NHL team.

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12-12-2012, 01:23 PM
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rt
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Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
IMHO if the lockout ends prior to the end of January deadline for Jamison, he does not have any, but any reasons left to not conclude the purchase of the Coyotes.

If NHL checked his background or his investors background, and he can't close a deal with the league between the end of the lockout and January 31st (given the lockout does not end on January 30rd of something like that).

It's getting too late to claim for Jamison he's tying up the ties and securing everything, after December 27th we will know if there is a referendum or not so that will be behind him, and after that date anything LEGIT stoping Jamison from buying the Coyotes will be the lockout, THE ONLY THING. If he doesn't have the cash by then, I really hope for US and you Coyotes fans the league doesn't sell to him, because honestly, that won't be a very positive sign of a strong ownership...thing that Coyotes need to remain in AZ for good.
I honestly don't believe the referendum threat is of any consequence at all. I expect Jones to collect fewer signatures than he did the last time around.

I am leaning toward believing the NHL will get in at least 48 games this season.

I don't buy into the conspiracy theories that Jamison is just Gary Bettman's smokescreen to buy time. I think Jamison wants to buy the team and I think Bettman wants him to buy the team. I suspect he's got the number of dollars together that Bettman has asked him to get together to meet whatever price/payment structure they've privately agreed on. I expect the BOG is on board with all of that, as well.

Having said all of that, I do expect another obstacle to appear between now and January. Some legal challenge by the GWI or otherwise. Something will pop up and put this in jeopardy again. I think if that obstacle forces the issue into the hands of the new Glendale City Council, they'll insist on a drastic restructuring of the lease agreement, and Jamison will be out of the running for good. I expect Jamison is the last hope of the Coyotes remaining.

I'm guessing we are finally at the point where either Greg Jamison buys the Coyotes and finalizes a lease agreement in the next six weeks or the Coyotes will be sold for relocation early in the summer of 2013, and there really aren't any alternatives. Does that sound reasonable?

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