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Old
12-11-2012, 10:15 PM
  #951
TheLeastOfTheBunch
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
Tyler Bozak, Matt Finn (begrudgingly, I must admit), Carter Ashton + 2nd.

I believe that's more than fair.
Finn is a tough one, most likely equivalent to a 1st round pick. Still doable, although I'd replace him with a 2014 1st

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12-11-2012, 11:38 PM
  #952
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Finn is not goin anywhere. He is not an untouchable or anything but Burke won't trade him.

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12-12-2012, 12:31 AM
  #953
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Finn is not goin anywhere. He is not an untouchable or anything but Burke won't trade him.
That's okay, we don't want Finn for Luongo anyways.

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12-12-2012, 01:07 AM
  #954
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Finn is a tough one, most likely equivalent to a 1st round pick. Still doable, although I'd replace him with a 2014 1st
Keep in mind Gillis was (teoretically) going after the 5th overall (Rielly).
In Gillis eyes Finn (35th overall) may be a consolation prize.

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12-12-2012, 02:12 AM
  #955
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
I'm sorry but Tyler Bozak, Carter Ashton or Matt Finn will most definitely not screw a team over if they decide to play past their expiry date. Roberto Luongo's contract could have long lasting implications on cap management strategies for whomever acquires him: ability to re-sign key UFAs or RFAs, lasting cap hit for an aging goaltender with declining abilities, etc.

Don't kid yourself. The team that accepts Roberto in a trade is taking on a massive risk, much more negative than a couple of good prospects playing in the AHL / OHL.
Luongo Risk: He doesnt retire and he rides the bus in the AHL.

Prospect Risk: They don't turn into NHL caliber players.

I think theres more risk with the prospects..

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12-12-2012, 02:25 AM
  #956
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Originally Posted by frankthetank91 View Post
Finn is not goin anywhere. He is not an untouchable or anything but Burke won't trade him.
In all honesty, wouldnt he be one of your better bargaining chips?

I mean no matter how good he is, he will always be behind Gardiner/Rielly.

You also have Blacker/Percy knocking at the door.


Much like the Canucks can deal Luongo because goaltending is an area of strength, could the Leafs not move Finn, as they have an abundance of young d-men?

Obviously Rielly/Gardiner are off the table, so Finn could be one of the prospects that Gillis values, but is expendable to Burke.

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12-12-2012, 02:33 AM
  #957
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I think a lot of people are opposed to a futures package, but in reality thats likely where Vancouver would end up with the most value from Toronto.

There wont be a 1-1 trade (T-O doesnt have that expendable piece).

However if you strengthen your prospect pool, it gives you assets that become very liquid at the deadline and draft.

If the Canucks acquire Kadri, it makes Schroeder that much more expendable (maybe Schroeder for Morrow at the deadline).
If the Canucks acquire a Tyler Biggs/Matt Frattin, maybe you move a 1st round pick to get an established player?

A contending team with a decent prospect pool gives a team some options to deal at a later point to address weaknesses.

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12-12-2012, 03:10 AM
  #958
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
In all honesty, wouldnt he be one of your better bargaining chips?

I mean no matter how good he is, he will always be behind Gardiner/Rielly.

You also have Blacker/Percy knocking at the door.


Much like the Canucks can deal Luongo because goaltending is an area of strength, could the Leafs not move Finn, as they have an abundance of young d-men?

Obviously Rielly/Gardiner are off the table, so Finn could be one of the prospects that Gillis values, but is expendable to Burke.

They absolutely could but I see blacker percy or holzer as more likely due to many feeling finn could be the steal of the draft based on him slippin to 35 after being viewed as a top 20 pick. Chances are he will be kept for now

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12-12-2012, 04:20 AM
  #959
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Indeed, although the price you listed is a lot but I could see Burke giving up a lot. What I can't see Burke doing is giving up pieces that improve the Canucks' roster to the degree many of their fans are looking for because, simply put, those pieces on the Leafs are far too crucial and not worth moving in this case.








There is a divide between giving up pieces to improve VAN's roster and giving up pieces that are NHL ready. For instance, Kadri _seems_ like he's NHL ready, but it remains to be seen if he can help a team like TO, let alone VAN. It is doubtful, that if dealing with TO, that VAN receives pieces that helps them more in the here and now. It would weaken TO too much...



Burke has to define TO's goals for this year. If it's to make his biggest push for the playoffs, then Luongo and current NHL roster pieces are the priority. If it's to continue to build for the future, then Luongo does not make sense in TO and they will run with what they have. Burke can't do both IMO, not if he's serious about Luongo. There will be no middle ground. So if he's offering a pittance for Luongo, he's pretty much conveyed that he is willing to stay the course. If he's offering something serious, and rumours report that his offer is the best on the table right now (outbid EDM), then he's made the call that he's going to push for the playoffs. Which means he's going to try and retain as many NHL roster pieces as possible.



What does this mean? To me it means Bozak is perhaps the _only_ current roster player coming back. Maybe Frattin. Everything else is likely to stay from the NHL roster. But what it also means is that the bulk of the assets coming back will be in the NHL ready assets/futures mold. Players that haven't made an impact yet in the pros. This puts Kadri on the table, and other names like Colborne, Ashton, Blacker _AND_ most all future assets that haven't been drafted 5th overall etc...






So basically, push for the playoffs = NHL roster pieces retained, futures given up, Luongo pursued. And in contrast, stay the course = No Luongo and run with Reimer. It cannot be both -> Unless you are expecting Luongo for a song, and Burke + Gillis know better.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 12-12-2012 at 06:23 AM.
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Old
12-12-2012, 04:36 AM
  #960
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
They absolutely could but I see blacker percy or holzer as more likely due to many feeling finn could be the steal of the draft based on him slippin to 35 after being viewed as a top 20 pick. Chances are he will be kept for now


As do I, and I think Percy's lack of grit compared to Finn, will put him on the table far faster than the latter.



If a D prospect is coming back, I think it will be Percy. Holzer helps the Leafs right now. Percy is much farther away. While Blacker gives them balance with this right shot.

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Old
12-12-2012, 06:19 AM
  #961
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Luongo Risk: He doesnt retire and he rides the bus in the AHL.

Prospect Risk: They don't turn into NHL caliber players.

I think theres more risk with the prospects..
If the NHL has the desire to stick with their plan of requiring the cap hit to stay on the books for the duration of a contract, regardless if a player is playing or not, then Roberto carries a lot of extra risk. It will be the same in the AHL as well, as players making over an x amount of dollars will count against a team's cap.

This has been outlined in proposals made by the NHL in one variant or another.

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12-12-2012, 08:10 AM
  #962
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If there isn't much demand for Luongo then we will keep him. I personally would not want Connolly, Bozak or Lupul in a trade, why trade for them when you can just wait a few months and tried to sign them?
Exactly and in a few months they wouldn't even get a 2nd look as possible UFA signings

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12-12-2012, 08:18 AM
  #963
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If the NHL has the desire to stick with their plan of requiring the cap hit to stay on the books for the duration of a contract, regardless if a player is playing or not, then Roberto carries a lot of extra risk. It will be the same in the AHL as well, as players making over an x amount of dollars will count against a team's cap.

This has been outlined in proposals made by the NHL in one variant or another.
We don't know if it was on the latest offers, however the latest we do know of, it was Vancouver, that would be on the hook no matter what. So to speculate at this time would be that it hurts Van and not the team holding his contract.

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12-12-2012, 08:56 AM
  #964
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Seriously? He is that. Reilly, in his mind was the first overall pick? the amount of excuses he made for overpaying Connoly. The excuses he made for not closing a deal for a goaltender at the deadline? What did he say about not wanting to do a rebuild?

I will admit that toronto ranks eighth on my favorite teams list, but i still want them to succeed and i still wan them to be a dominant team like they used to be. Back in the early 2000's Toronto almost won the presidents trophy, they almost made it to the Stanley Cup. They did these things on the back of a good goaltender.

Id like to see hockey teams in Canada be powerhouses again. I am a fan of Canadian Hockey(and pittsburgh), and would like to see all those teams compete again instead of being the bottom feeders like most of the teams were last year, with the exception of Van and OTT.

you can say that I have a disregard for Burke and Toronto, but Burke has effectively ****ed up that team. Its not even like the guy drafts well either.
I'll break down the bolded into 3 parts.

1. We can't judge Reilly until he actually plays in the NHL. Alot of hockey people are saying he's valued higher than his draft position.

2. Connolly was pretty much the only choice he had for a center.

3. When the price for "said goaltender" borders on insane...it's not an excuse, it's smart hockey management to back away.

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Old
12-12-2012, 09:26 AM
  #965
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There is a divide between giving up pieces to improve VAN's roster and giving up pieces that are NHL ready. For instance, Kadri _seems_ like he's NHL ready, but it remains to be seen if he can help a team like TO, let alone VAN. It is doubtful, that if dealing with TO, that VAN receives pieces that helps them more in the here and now. It would weaken TO too much...



Burke has to define TO's goals for this year. If it's to make his biggest push for the playoffs, then Luongo and current NHL roster pieces are the priority. If it's to continue to build for the future, then Luongo does not make sense in TO and they will run with what they have. Burke can't do both IMO, not if he's serious about Luongo. There will be no middle ground. So if he's offering a pittance for Luongo, he's pretty much conveyed that he is willing to stay the course. If he's offering something serious, and rumours report that his offer is the best on the table right now (outbid EDM), then he's made the call that he's going to push for the playoffs. Which means he's going to try and retain as many NHL roster pieces as possible.



What does this mean? To me it means Bozak is perhaps the _only_ current roster player coming back. Maybe Frattin. Everything else is likely to stay from the NHL roster. But what it also means is that the bulk of the assets coming back will be in the NHL ready assets/futures mold. Players that haven't made an impact yet in the pros. This puts Kadri on the table, and other names like Colborne, Ashton, Blacker _AND_ most all future assets that haven't been drafted 5th overall etc...






So basically, push for the playoffs = NHL roster pieces retained, futures given up, Luongo pursued. And in contrast, stay the course = No Luongo and run with Reimer. It cannot be both -> Unless you are expecting Luongo for a song, and Burke + Gillis know better.

Agreed.

I think all those names you mentioned would be in the discussion. It just depends on which ones Burke is willing to move from there.

Of course, this year might be lost. If the trade were to happen in the offseason, it almost seems like it would open up some more possibilities for Toronto thanks to expiring contracts. On the other hand, it also changes the dynamic as a guy like Bozak is either UFA or recently re-signed.

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Old
12-12-2012, 09:33 AM
  #966
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Luongo, Raymond for Grabovski, Finn and a 1st round pick.

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12-12-2012, 09:35 AM
  #967
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Seriously? He is that. Reilly, in his mind was the first overall pick? the amount of excuses he made for overpaying Connoly. The excuses he made for not closing a deal for a goaltender at the deadline? What did he say about not wanting to do a rebuild?

I will admit that toronto ranks eighth on my favorite teams list, but i still want them to succeed and i still wan them to be a dominant team like they used to be. Back in the early 2000's Toronto almost won the presidents trophy, they almost made it to the Stanley Cup. They did these things on the back of a good goaltender.

Id like to see hockey teams in Canada be powerhouses again. I am a fan of Canadian Hockey(and pittsburgh), and would like to see all those teams compete again instead of being the bottom feeders like most of the teams were last year, with the exception of Van and OTT.

you can say that I have a disregard for Burke and Toronto, but Burke has effectively ****ed up that team. Its not even like the guy drafts well either.
That's incredible. I don't get having more than one favourite team but 8.

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Old
12-12-2012, 09:40 AM
  #968
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Luongo, Raymond for Grabovski, Finn and a 1st round pick.
Nope, don't be ridiculous.

No top six players from the Leafs will be traded for Roberto. I also can't see Brian Burke parting with a first round pick.

Matt Finn, however painful that would be for most who have followed him this year, could be had though.

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12-12-2012, 09:42 AM
  #969
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Agreed.

I think all those names you mentioned would be in the discussion. It just depends on which ones Burke is willing to move from there.

Of course, this year might be lost. If the trade were to happen in the offseason, it almost seems like it would open up some more possibilities for Toronto thanks to expiring contracts. On the other hand, it also changes the dynamic as a guy like Bozak is either UFA or recently re-signed.



I think Kadri is assured to come back. His draft position may still skew value in talks and VAN has a need at forward in the prospect pipeline. It behooves Burke to add him IMO. Beyond him, Bozak also makes sense as he fills the 3C role right now for Gillis. So the Millard tweet has me curious indeed. I could see Bozak + Kadri + 1st (he mentioned a pick right? or was that the SN rumour?) being the return for Luongo. Which is a steep drop from Gardiner + 5th overall + Bozak + Frattin... something I could see happening.

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12-12-2012, 09:43 AM
  #970
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Nope, don't be ridiculous.

No top six players from the Leafs will be traded for Roberto. I also can't see Brian Burke parting with a first round pick.

Matt Finn, however painful that would be for most who have followed him this year, could be had though.
I could see straight up for Grabovski if Burke has another deal for a Centre lined up.

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12-12-2012, 09:43 AM
  #971
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Luongo, Raymond for Grabovski, Finn and a 1st round pick.
I've posted this a couple of times, the shorter the season gets, the less likely Burke is to deal our 1st. We have more issues than just goalie, risking that pick in a 48 or less game dash for cash season is not a gamble i'd take.

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12-12-2012, 09:44 AM
  #972
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Nope, don't be ridiculous.

No top six players from the Leafs will be traded for Roberto. I also can't see Brian Burke parting with a first round pick.

Matt Finn, however painful that would be for most who have followed him this year, could be had though.


I think Burke would offer a choice between the 1st and/or Finn/Percy... and I'm betting VAN insists on the 1st.

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12-12-2012, 09:45 AM
  #973
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I think Kadri is assured to come back. His draft position may still skew value in talks and VAN has a need at forward in the prospect pipeline. It behooves Burke to add him IMO. Beyond him, Bozak also makes sense as he fills the 3C role right now for Gillis. So the Millard tweet has me curious indeed. I could see Bozak + Kadri + 1st (he mentioned a pick right? or was that the SN rumour?) being the return for Luongo. Which is a steep drop from Gardiner + 5th overall + Bozak + Frattin... something I could see happening.
I've go to be honest, if he'd heard a 1st....wouldn't he have said that. Seems to me that the pick would be the most valuable piece as it could be lottery.

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12-12-2012, 09:46 AM
  #974
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I've posted this a couple of times, the shorter the season gets, the less likely Burke is to deal our 1st. We have more issues than just goalie, risking that pick in a 48 or less game dash for cash season is not a gamble i'd take.


The 1st would have to have some caveat attached to it largely due to the variation in a shortened season. Maybe top10 protected. Or a choice between giving it up now, or deferring it to 2014, with an extra pick thrown in as compensation if it is deferred.

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12-12-2012, 09:47 AM
  #975
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I've go to be honest, if he'd heard a 1st....wouldn't he have said that. Seems to me that the pick would be the most valuable piece as it could be lottery.


The names have more cache. Kadri and Bozak are names far more likely to draw the average Leafs fan's interest than a standard 1st rounder would. Kadri is much more _known_ as the main asset, in a package like that, than any 1st.

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