HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

NHL Lockout XXVI: 57 Hockey Channels (And Nothin' On)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-11-2012, 11:11 PM
  #926
sunnydaycrash
Registered User
 
sunnydaycrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Vancouver
Country: Portugal
Posts: 3,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The players are locked out...
Bugger, I'm so tired of hearing this from the pro players side....they were locked cos they wouldn't negotiate til the last minute and Fehr's past was the reason the leaugue didn't play under the current CBA

sunnydaycrash is offline  
Old
12-11-2012, 11:15 PM
  #927
McRib
2nd Rate Fan
 
McRib's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Saskatoon
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,426
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnydaycrash View Post
Bugger, I'm so tired of hearing this from the pro players side....they were locked cos they wouldn't negotiate til the last minute and Fehr's past was the reason the leaugue didn't play under the current CBA
Any other professional sports league in the same situation would lock out their players thanks to Fehr and what happened in 1994 in baseball. No one will make that mistake again.

McRib is offline  
Old
12-11-2012, 11:19 PM
  #928
sunnydaycrash
Registered User
 
sunnydaycrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Vancouver
Country: Portugal
Posts: 3,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
Any other professional sports league in the same situation would lock out their players thanks to Fehr and what happened in 1994 in baseball. No one will make that mistake again.
Exactly, but for some reason, players and pro player fans can't seem to grasp the reason and keep spewing the same old tired rhetoric

sunnydaycrash is offline  
Old
12-11-2012, 11:25 PM
  #929
awesomo
HARD!
 
awesomo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: location, location
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,597
vCash: 500
it'll end soon.

all these players are getting "injured" in Europe and are coming home.


awesomo is offline  
Old
12-11-2012, 11:27 PM
  #930
Crows*
 
Crows*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by awesomo View Post
it'll end soon.

all these players are getting "injured" in Europe and are coming home.

There's also a thing called christmas coming up.

Crows* is offline  
Old
12-11-2012, 11:38 PM
  #931
Ugene Malkin
Bück Dich Baby!
 
Ugene Malkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: Germany
Posts: 21,087
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lint07 View Post
According to Vincent Damphousse (ex-player and NHLPA high ranked staff), the NHL could be willing to move on contract limits BUT would propose less money for the makewhole in exchange. Players would have to choose, they can't have the 300M$ AND more years for the contract limit.
I feel the league was going to come back with the 211 and everything else they just offered them, just without the last 89m to make 300.

I didn't think they'd reward them so much for their screw up.

Ugene Malkin is offline  
Old
12-11-2012, 11:38 PM
  #932
Boltsfan2029
Registered User
 
Boltsfan2029's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In deleted threads
Country: United States
Posts: 6,281
vCash: 698
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I believe that Fehr is the only reason the players are going to salvage make whole and player rights out of this negotiation. This whole negotiation has been about eroding the players position in the CBA. Every offer that goes by sees them lose more and more, I don't see how starting earlier would have been smart. The league has never been afraid of being the villain.
I can't imagine why the league would have asked to start negotiating over a year ago if they had no intention of trying to work out a deal had the union agreed. If they had started talking a year ago, do you think the league would suddenly have refused to negotiate after formally asking the union to start? That makes no sense to me.

Quote:
The final tally will have to be made when all is said and done. Nobody knows what kind of damage this has done or what the players are going to end up with. Regardless, it isn't accurate to suggest they lost out on a half season of pay... they didn't have to work. What they gained was 300m in future earnings.
This is really quite convoluted. I'll bet if you were essentially laid off for a half a year when it came time to pay the bills you'd darn well feel you had missed out on a half year's pay. And I feel safe in having the opinion that there's very few - if any - players out there who agree with your take on this, especially those whose careers are over after this season.

Quote:
The players are going to end up with make whole and they are going to retain most of their contract rights. That is a big win for Fehr imo.
I have no doubt they'll end up with *some* amount in "make whole." It won't be as much as they want, and it may not be as much as the league's last offer, but there will be some.

As for the contract rights, I suppose if they get close to what they want that can be considered a "win," but I think it's sure tainted by the amount they're losing.

Quote:
Personally, I feel like the league had planned to hold out until the last second if they didn't get everything they wanted.
Same for the PA, no doubt.

Boltsfan2029 is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 12:01 AM
  #933
GoneFullHextall
adios Holmgren
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 30,710
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleedred View Post
Does anyone think Fehr will be playing games, and that maybe he is already? Suppose they do agree to the contract/and UFA stuff, and CBA length. Then the league puts the make whole stuff back on the table, but Fehr recants on accepting it?
At this point both sides are capable of anything. Despite all the sides are close rumors I am still pessimistic as hell.

GoneFullHextall is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 12:08 AM
  #934
rdawg1234
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
At this point both sides are capable of anything. Despite all the sides are close rumors I am still pessimistic as hell.
Tomorrow is a huge day. I have no idea what to expect. It depends all on what the owners are like when they come in, how much the PA wants to give up, how much the owners are willing to bend etc.

IT'll either last about 5 minutes or go on for hours.

rdawg1234 is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 01:45 AM
  #935
GoSensGo765
GO SENS GO!!
 
GoSensGo765's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,578
vCash: 500
Let's see it go on for hours tomorrow, no that doesn't say everything as we have seen it before but it needs to be a long day.

A 56 game season starting on December 30th to go with the final week of the NFL season sounds perfect. Almost too good to be true.

Offering a choice of more contract years or make whole is absolutely brilliant move by Bettman. Time to man up players, what's it gonna be?

Let's get that deal done already guys!!!

GoSensGo765 is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 02:04 AM
  #936
Fuhryous
Registered User
 
Fuhryous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Medicine Hat, AB
Country: Hungary
Posts: 867
vCash: 500
Since Bettman stated "anything less than a 48 game season would be unacceptable" last thursday, many have speculated January 20th was a subliminal message in regards to a "drop dead" date to have a season.

This time around, that would have to be a lot sooner, no? In 1994-95, there were twenty-six teams, since then the league has now grown to thirty. That is four extra teams to schedule in 48 games per team. Unless they want the SCF stretching into July, I believe they would have to get rolling much sooner.

I've been the forever optimist so far, but the pessimism is sure starting to take over. I think we're in the homestretch now, one way or the other. If there is no deal in place allowing New Year's Eve to be the start date, I wouldn't be surprised if the season is cancelled if/when the next round of cancellations occur, or shortly thereafter.

I'm really hoping this is the week we see something positive happen.

Fuhryous is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 02:06 AM
  #937
rdawg1234
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuhryous View Post
Since Bettman stated "anything less than a 48 game season would be unacceptable" last thursday, many have speculated January 20th was a subliminal message in regards to a "drop dead" date to have a season.

This time around, that would have to be a lot sooner, no? In 1994-95, there were twenty-six teams, since then the league has now grown to thirty. That is four extra teams to schedule in 48 games per team. Unless they want the SCF stretching into July, I believe they would have to get rolling much sooner.

I've been the forever optimist so far, but the pessimism is sure starting to take over. I think we're in the homestretch now, one way or the other. If there is no deal in place allowing New Year's Eve to be the start date, I wouldn't be surprised if the season is cancelled if/when the next round of cancellations occur, or shortly thereafter.

I'm really hoping this is the week we see something positive happen.
I would assume an agreement would have to be made by jan 5th-10th which leaves us less than 30 days to get a deal done.

rdawg1234 is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 03:08 AM
  #938
heartsabres*
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Budapest
Country: Hungary
Posts: 1,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
At this point both sides are capable of anything. Despite all the sides are close rumors I am still pessimistic as hell.
Who says they are close? Fehr?

heartsabres* is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 03:09 AM
  #939
MVP of West Hollywd
Registered User
 
MVP of West Hollywd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,756
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lint07 View Post
According to Vincent Damphousse (ex-player and NHLPA high ranked staff), the NHL could be willing to move on contract limits BUT would propose less money for the makewhole in exchange. Players would have to choose, they can't have the 300M$ AND more years for the contract limit.
I think the opposite is more likely. Owners end up getting the contract issues they want, but the Make Whole increases for that to happen. It matters more to the owners to get the contract issues right than the players. Getting rid of the long deals and backdiving is pretty relevant to the owners need. To the players it only affects very small portion, in other words it's just a principle thing with them (they want to win). Getting more Make Whole money matters more to the players than the contracts issues because it affects far more players and it affects the journeymen who desperately need that money the rest of their lives. I think Fehr's plan all along was to eventually take the contract issues the owners want, but to use the extra week to squeeze them dry for it by getting more Make Whole money, if not the entire Make Whole (the difference is only really 800k per year for 4 years for each owner, that's not bone crushing). Fehr looked at the deal and didn't say "I can get the contract issues", he said "I can get more money". That's what he meant when he told the players they can get more

MVP of West Hollywd is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 04:24 AM
  #940
mossey3535
Registered User
 
mossey3535's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,312
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I believe that Fehr is the only reason the players are going to salvage make whole and player rights out of this negotiation. This whole negotiation has been about eroding the players position in the CBA. Every offer that goes by sees them lose more and more, I don't see how starting earlier would have been smart. The league has never been afraid of being the villain.
Why? You think that any other union leader would not be able to get Make Whole and the maintenance of FA rights in exchange for a lowering of revenues to a 50/50 split? Fehr isn't the only skilled negotiator in the world - in fact, we don't even know where he stands among negotiators since he essentially inherited a situation from one of the most famous union heads of all time.

I don't think Make Whole is something to hang your hat on as an accomplishment when the NHL has been hinting since the summer (go to 32:35) that it would be willing to honour face value of contracts.

Not only that, but he failed to negotiate Make Whole properly. The actual Make Whole payments for (full seasons) 2012 and 2013 should have been $221M and $172M respectively. By agreeing to $300M, he's essentially letting the league off the hook for the second year. The league thinks that revenue growth will account for most of the $172M.

Since they are only going to play at most 68% of a full season, the make whole will be prorated to $151M. $50M is pension money, not soft landing - IMO another mistake. So $100M will remain to pay off Make Whole year 2.

The remaining $79M in year 2 represents a 2% growth in revenue - somewhat reasonable but definitely not guaranteed after a lockout year. To me the scenario of <2% growth is real and fairly likely. If revenues stall, by accepting a fixed Make Whole amount the players could be out tens of millions of dollars - every 1% less of revenue growth is around $32M.

That's why I've been saying since Make Whole came out that the PA needed to negotiate guaranteed Make Whole dollars for years in which revenue doesn't cover the difference in the money put in and what is owed.

Keep in mind too that the $300M number worked a lot better if a full season had been saved. $300M would barely cover the first $221M of MW, leaving only $79M to pay a $172M bill in the second year. If the owners had spun $50M of that into pension, then there would only be $29M to pay a $172M bill. The remaining $143M would have to be covered by growth and would amount to a 4% growth in league revenues - which was reasonable with a full season. Actually, even the original $221M offer would have been fine since $172M would be around 5% revenue growth.

Another thing - even if growth covers the MW - it is taking money away from players who become FA's since that growth is the EXTRA money they will be resigned with. Otherwise you are signing more players (new + FA - retired) every year with the same amount of salary that was freed up when those players turned FA.

Likewise, the BARE MINIMUM that the players had to keep out of this deal was the UFA years. They weren't going to go back to the days where UFA's were 31.

Fehr has already conceded 32% of salary, 32% of this year's Make Whole (which was there for the taking anyhow, contract term limits and (presumably) variance - for things probably any decent negotiator could get. If I put myself in a player's shoes I can't justify his actions whatsoever.


Last edited by mossey3535: 12-12-2012 at 04:31 AM.
mossey3535 is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 05:02 AM
  #941
oilersfan11
Registered User
 
oilersfan11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 11,223
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Who says they are close? Fehr?
Donald Fehr says the NHL and NHLPA are close; Gary Bettman says that their not close.


Last edited by oilersfan11: 12-12-2012 at 05:15 AM.
oilersfan11 is online now  
Old
12-12-2012, 05:22 AM
  #942
pepty
Registered User
 
pepty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10,057
vCash: 492
We have seen many posts on here declaring that fans have to stop equating their humdrum lives and modest pay cheques to that of the players.

Actually the only tine we see that is usually as a response to something like this when the players or the PA tries to get fans onside by claiming that they are fighting the same fight.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/edito...o-use-lockouts

And here is a sensible response:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...actory-stiffs/

It must have seemed like a great idea. Appeal to all those beer-drinking factory guys who are the backbone of hockey, and get it printed in the Toronto Star, where left-wing readers would slap their foreheads and declare, “Gee, I never thought of it like that.” Then maybe one of the Star’s “progressive” columnists could get involved and write a tirade about Gary Bettman, and what a beast he is.

And it would have been a good idea, if not for the fact it’s totally ridiculous......
.......Hockey players, as Fehr points out, have short careers. But even four or five years at $2.45 million is easily enough to coast through life on, if you’re not foolish enough to blow it all.
.................................................. ..............................................

So what we have here is a very clear double standard. Workers who use their leverage to get what they want are good; an employer trying to run a company so everyone gets paid and the company turns a profit is all about greed..................
.................................................. ...

It’s not a great argument to be making, especially for Fehr. Despite what he may believe, the average Canadian hockey fan is not necessarily an hourly paid Joe who drags his lunch bucket to the factory every day at dawn for an eight-hour shift. Some even have an education, and can recognize the difference between their life and that of a hockey star.

pepty is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 06:40 AM
  #943
RangerBoy
1994 FOREVER
 
RangerBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 31,603
vCash: 500
CBA length

NHL

10 years. Opt-out after 8 years.

NHLPA

8 years. Opt-out after 6 years.

All of the indications from LeBrun,Allen,Spector and Strickland are the players prefer the longer term CBA proposed by the NHL. The agents prefer the longer term CBA. Don Fehr prefers the shorter term. Fehr isn't the long-term NHLPA boss. He will help find his replacement and retire. The players want the longer term.

NHL wins on CBA length.

Contract limits

NHL

5 years for a free agent. 7 years for your own player. 5% variance.

NHLPA

8 years. 25% variance.

People don't make a big deal about Fehr essentially giving the NHL a cap within a salary cap system. If Marvin Miller was alive,he would have smacked Fehr in the head for giving another cap. Miller was critical of Fehr in August for offering to keep the salary cap system. The NHL will never see another dummy cheating contract. Before the PA offered the 8 years,you read(James Mirtle) the PA wanted to preserve the long term contract and they would never give a term limit.

The NHL will win on this issue too. Whether its 6 and 7 or 7. The NHL wins. Hill Daly said the cheating contracts are 1A right behind the 50/50 split which the NHL will get. A PA source told Adrian Dater in July that the PA would never agree to anything below 52%. No more dummy contracts with $1M annual salaries tacked on at the end to lower the AAV.

The NHL has won the lockout.

RangerBoy is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 06:44 AM
  #944
MacOfNiagara
Blue&Gold from birth
 
MacOfNiagara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Niagara Falls
Country: United States
Posts: 2,702
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
CBA length

NHL

10 years. Opt-out after 8 years.

NHLPA

8 years. Opt-out after 6 years.

All of the indications from LeBrun,Allen,Spector and Strickland are the players prefer the longer term CBA proposed by the NHL. The agents prefer the longer term CBA. Don Fehr prefers the shorter term. Fehr isn't the long-term NHLPA boss. He will help find his replacement and retire. The players want the longer term.

NHL wins on CBA length.

Contract limits

NHL

5 years for a free agent. 7 years for your own player. 5% variance.

NHLPA

8 years. 25% variance.
The NHLPA offer is actually 75% variance. In this case they actually are speaking a different language, or at least using a different definition. NHL variance offer is year to year, NHLPA offer is not. Changes the math in a significant way.

They are still pretty far apart on this issue.

MacOfNiagara is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 06:46 AM
  #945
MacTruck
In Gordie We Trust
 
MacTruck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: NY
Country: United States
Posts: 1,924
vCash: 500
Any idea when this meeting is starting

MacTruck is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 07:00 AM
  #946
swimmer77
What's an ROW?
 
swimmer77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: in water
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,372
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The players are locked out...
That argument is so lame it's gone beyond pathetic. So there was never a proposal that included make whole and an 82 game schedule back in October? Fehr purposely kept throwing meaningless proposals on the table in response.

And others have told you it was Fehr who delayed the process from the start. But the players are locked out. Yes, okay.

swimmer77 is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 07:20 AM
  #947
Bubba Thudd
Moderator
#AvsNewAge
 
Bubba Thudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Avaland
Posts: 12,435
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTruck View Post
Any idea when this meeting is starting
Whenever Fehr shows up...probably 3 or 4 hours after the scheduled time.

Bubba Thudd is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 07:22 AM
  #948
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The NHL has won the lockout.
Once a full season was no longer feasible, the NHL was always going to win the lockout. It then just became a matter of how long it would take to agree to "how much" they are going to win.

Snotbubbles is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 07:22 AM
  #949
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
Whenever Fehr shows up...probably 3 or 4 hours after the scheduled time.
The Phil Helmuth tactic.

Snotbubbles is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 07:27 AM
  #950
Ari91
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,448
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
CBA length

NHL

10 years. Opt-out after 8 years.

NHLPA

8 years. Opt-out after 6 years.

All of the indications from LeBrun,Allen,Spector and Strickland are the players prefer the longer term CBA proposed by the NHL. The agents prefer the longer term CBA. Don Fehr prefers the shorter term. Fehr isn't the long-term NHLPA boss. He will help find his replacement and retire. The players want the longer term.

NHL wins on CBA length.

Contract limits

NHL

5 years for a free agent. 7 years for your own player. 5% variance.

NHLPA

8 years. 25% variance.

People don't make a big deal about Fehr essentially giving the NHL a cap within a salary cap system. If Marvin Miller was alive,he would have smacked Fehr in the head for giving another cap. Miller was critical of Fehr in August for offering to keep the salary cap system. The NHL will never see another dummy cheating contract. Before the PA offered the 8 years,you read(James Mirtle) the PA wanted to preserve the long term contract and they would never give a term limit.

The NHL will win on this issue too. Whether its 6 and 7 or 7. The NHL wins. Hill Daly said the cheating contracts are 1A right behind the 50/50 split which the NHL will get. A PA source told Adrian Dater in July that the PA would never agree to anything below 52%. No more dummy contracts with $1M annual salaries tacked on at the end to lower the AAV.

The NHL has won the lockout.
The PA is proposing a minimum variance of 25%. That means the maximum variance is 75%. I'm not sure if that variance is looking at the difference from the first year to last year or if that variance is per year. Either way, the league's maximum variance is 5% per year and over the course of a 5 year contract, the maximum variance from start to finish would be 25%, over 7 years it would be 35%.

Fehr has a way of putting things in a certain way that sounds good but has a catch to it. Maybe I misunderstood the variance issue but I feel pretty confident he proposed a minimum of 25%.

Ari91 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:37 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.