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Lecavalier for Grabovski

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Old
12-10-2012, 08:28 AM
  #51
dannyboy8920
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supert View Post
Because he a bust . I know Leaf fans will not like it ,but those same fan call Sam Gagner a bust who only a little older and has at least made it to the big show .
He might be. Or he may just need a change of scenery, kick in the ass to get going.

Listening to his interviews it seems that his head is on right and he has the determination to make it. Just my opinion.

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Old
12-10-2012, 02:54 PM
  #52
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Grabovski has outperformed Lecavalier for the past two years, and he makes significantly less than him.

Toronto says no

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12-10-2012, 03:49 PM
  #53
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Vinny is a stanley cup hero for sure, but 7.7 is an utter disgrace. The only team in the league that would want his contract is Tampa, because he's the face & Hero

Toronto would be utterly foolish to do this trade. (and i Think Burke is a fool, but he wouldnt do this)

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12-10-2012, 04:59 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Grabovski has outperformed Lecavalier for the past two years, and he makes significantly less than him.

Toronto says no
I agree with the pay thing, as a Bolts fan I can say safely not a single one of us think he should be making that much money. But the highlighted part is just not true. In both of those season Grabovski has played more games (Grab - 155GP, Vinny - 129GP) and out scored Vinny by 6 points (Grab - 52G 57A 109PTS, Vinny - 47G 56A 103PTS) in 26 more GP. Vinny was a -7 on a team with worse D than...The Leafs, Grab was a +14. Now I am not sure how much PP time Grabs played so I can't comment on that, so I will ask other informed Leafs fans to tell me that.

The ONLY thing that makes Grab more appealing to Leafs fans is the fact is he gets paid less. If it is performance then Vinny plays less games and performs almost exactly the same as Grabs. Imagine if he played a full season. The contract is the only thing anyone can complain about.

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Old
12-10-2012, 05:02 PM
  #55
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No use discussing trades where such a hefty contract switches hands without knowing what the new CBA will be like.

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Old
12-10-2012, 05:05 PM
  #56
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Dont want lecavlier plain and simple.

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Old
12-10-2012, 05:50 PM
  #57
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Bang for buck isn't there. Lecav hasn't had over 70 pts since 2007-2008.

But, Leafs have cap space, so if they can't get a better option. I would GLADLY do Lecav for Grabo.

Only thing for me is age. 32 yrs old.

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12-10-2012, 08:47 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolt32 View Post
Vinny isn't the star that he used to be, when he was arguably the best player in the league. Though with that said, hes still a force to be reckon with, and when we make the playoffs he steps up his game and really pushes the team. Hes our captain, great for the community and a fan favorite. Hes not worth his cap hit, but hes not hurting the team either. I would rather keep Vinny to be honest.
He was never even close to the best player in the league. He's never even been the best player on his team. He literally had one superstar season with 52 goals and 108 points, and another solid one with 40 goals and over a ppg. Besides those two years he's never had another season over a ppg. Lecavalier is so overrated it's not even funny, and yet an underappreciated superstar plays on the same team. Weird. In fairness he was very good those two years(although not best player in the league good) and the rest of your comment is awfully reasonable. I would argue in regards to the contract that the real burden is still a few years away.

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Old
12-10-2012, 08:50 PM
  #59
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Los fan here, all else being equal (cab, ntc) I'd do it in a second. Love grabs but vinny is a much better fit. Would help the pp a ton, leadership, big playmaking 1c who was finally getting his game back after a wrist injury messed him up for the better of two seasons. Also Grabs isn't that much younger. Wouldn't hesitate.

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12-10-2012, 08:59 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
To be fair, Toronto did try to trade Sundin - to Montreal of all teams - and only didn't because he vetoed.

Fun aside, I'd say this is a poor trade for the Leafs. Grabovski has been incredibly effective as a second line center and at this stage of Vinny's career. He simply is not worth his contract nor is he necessarily better than Grabovski, albeit that is my opinion. Can't see it as a good trade for those reasons. Meanwhile, Tampa's are obvious and outlined above.
Keep Grabo for these reasons.

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Old
12-10-2012, 09:04 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supert View Post
Because he a bust . I know Leaf fans will not like it ,but those same fan call Sam Gagner a bust who only a little older and has at least made it to the big show .
No, I think he's just about a bust.

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Old
12-11-2012, 08:12 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stryfe604 View Post
I agree with the pay thing, as a Bolts fan I can say safely not a single one of us think he should be making that much money. But the highlighted part is just not true. In both of those season Grabovski has played more games (Grab - 155GP, Vinny - 129GP) and out scored Vinny by 6 points (Grab - 52G 57A 109PTS, Vinny - 47G 56A 103PTS) in 26 more GP. Vinny was a -7 on a team with worse D than...The Leafs, Grab was a +14. Now I am not sure how much PP time Grabs played so I can't comment on that, so I will ask other informed Leafs fans to tell me that.

The ONLY thing that makes Grab more appealing to Leafs fans is the fact is he gets paid less. If it is performance then Vinny plays less games and performs almost exactly the same as Grabs. Imagine if he played a full season. The contract is the only thing anyone can complain about.
Im sure you realize it, but i thought i would say it considering it was said at the same time +/- was mentioned. plus/minus does not change on the pp or pk.

Grabo played on a 1(b) pp unit.

That being said i probably would make the trade regardless of the bigger contract. Lecavalier may be THAT player who gels with Kessel.

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Old
12-11-2012, 08:16 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Grabovski has outperformed Lecavalier for the past two years, and he makes significantly less than him.

Toronto says no
Trust me...if vinny lecavlier plays to the level he is capable of, we would never regret this trade. The only issue here is the contract and how the new CBA views to this.

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Old
12-11-2012, 10:22 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Trust me...if vinny lecavlier plays to the level he is capable of, we would never regret this trade. The only issue here is the contract and how the new CBA views to this.
Lecavalier has had one excellent, one very good, and a bunch of solid seasons. His 100 point season looks more like an aberration that a trend, especially since he is now on the wrong side of 30

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Old
12-11-2012, 10:34 AM
  #65
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I think Toronto would have to add a bit, maybe a d prospect

In any case, I can't see Vinny traded, he means too much to not only the team but the community

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Old
12-11-2012, 11:16 AM
  #66
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Future:

Lupul-Getzlaf-Kessel
JVR-Lecavalier-Kulemin
Frattin-Kadri-Biggs
Komarov-Mcclement-Brown

Rielly-Phaneuf
Gardiner-Gunnarsson
Liles-Holzer

Luongo
Reimer

Grabo + Percy
for
Lecavalier + conditional pick

Bozak + Franson + pick
for
Luongo

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Old
12-11-2012, 12:24 PM
  #67
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Grabo's my favorite Leaf by a mile but I would do it from a Leafs POV.

TB wouldn't though - people are really underselling Lecavalier's last few seasons. Yes, he doesn't put up the same big numbers but he still has a lot of leadership, intangibles, and clutch playoff play. I think the Leafs should do it based on the fact that he fills a hole while not making too big of a hole on the second line. If Kadri can keep up his improvement, he could be a suitable replacement on the second line. Cap shouldn't be too much of an issue as the Leafs have plenty of it going forward.

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Old
12-11-2012, 09:45 PM
  #68
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I would do it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Grabo is better bang for the buck.
...because of that.

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Old
12-11-2012, 09:46 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Lecavalier has had one excellent, one very good, and a bunch of solid seasons. His 100 point season looks more like an aberration that a trend, especially since he is now on the wrong side of 30
While I agree he won't replicate it again, it wasn't an accident - just had **** derailed by shoulder and hand injuries.

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Old
12-12-2012, 03:15 AM
  #70
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Bad deal for Toronto.

Lecavier hasn't played well in the regular season for several seasons now and his salary is massive. At the same time he's more like a sniper than a playmaker, so I don't see him and Kessel really hitting it off. I'm sure that they'll still produce, but it really doesn't sound like a match made in heaven to me.

Meanwhile Tampa gets a decent #2 center in Grabovski with a significantly smaller cap hit. Younger more motivated legs and more cap space.

I think Tampa should take this deal, but I totally understand if they want to hold onto Lecavier. He's been with them through the thick and the thin. Still, it's a good hockey move for them.

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Old
12-12-2012, 05:11 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Grabovski has outperformed Lecavalier for the past two years, and he makes significantly less than him.

Toronto says no
Not fan of either team but this statement isn't completely right.

YearNameRelQoCOZSRelCorsiP/60 NameRelQoCOZSRelCorsiPts/60min
2009 Lecavalier 0.515 55.4 3.9 2.27  Grabovski 0.138 52.0 13.6 1.96
2010 Lecavalier 0.445 45.9 -0.8 1.63  Grabovski 0.465 53.4 21.3 2.06
2011 Lecavalier 0.383 54.3 3.6 2.21  Grabovski 0.686 52.0 14.9 2.08

If you believe in corsi Lecavalier still (currently) seems to be more offensively gifted than Grabovski, while Grabovski seems to be more defensively gifted than Lecavalier (currently).

If you don't believe in corsi, well in the last three years Lecavalier has scored more per ice-time than Grabovski in 2 out of the last 3 years.


Of course, this is a shallow look at things as there are other variables (ex: linemates).

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Old
12-12-2012, 05:38 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyboy8920 View Post
Im sure you realize it, but i thought i would say it considering it was said at the same time +/- was mentioned. plus/minus does not change on the pp or pk.

Grabo played on a 1(b) pp unit.

That being said i probably would make the trade regardless of the bigger contract. Lecavalier may be THAT player who gels with Kessel.
...Grabovski is the player who gels with Kessel. When those two are on the ice together, the Leafs dominate the opponent in shot attempts, puck possession, and scoring chances..

Grabovski shift with Kessel/Lupul
How about Grabo+Kessel

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Old
12-12-2012, 09:54 AM
  #73
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Objective third party who would absolutely do that from the Tampa side of things, probably not so much from Toronto's POV.

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Old
12-12-2012, 10:00 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Not fan of either team but this statement isn't completely right.

YearNameRelQoCOZSRelCorsiP/60 NameRelQoCOZSRelCorsiPts/60min
2009 Lecavalier 0.515 55.4 3.9 2.27  Grabovski 0.138 52.0 13.6 1.96
2010 Lecavalier 0.445 45.9 -0.8 1.63  Grabovski 0.465 53.4 21.3 2.06
2011 Lecavalier 0.383 54.3 3.6 2.21  Grabovski 0.686 52.0 14.9 2.08

If you believe in corsi Lecavalier still (currently) seems to be more offensively gifted than Grabovski, while Grabovski seems to be more defensively gifted than Lecavalier (currently).

If you don't believe in corsi, well in the last three years Lecavalier has scored more per ice-time than Grabovski in 2 out of the last 3 years.


Of course, this is a shallow look at things as there are other variables (ex: linemates).
As a believer in Corsi, what I see is a guy who's 15-20 shots/60 better than the rest of his team, versus a guy who's 0-5 shots/60 better than the rest of his team. They're both on teams of similar ability, so that relative Corsi is pretty telling. I don't think the extra ~0.1-0.2 pts/60 makes up for it (which would work out to about 4-5 extra even strength points per season). For comparison, that Corsi differential would work out to a 300+ shot improvement over the team's shot differential without Grabo on the ice (which, at around a league average team shooting percentage, translates to approximately 25-30 goals over the season).

Maybe we can't attribute all of that differential to Grabo, but given past looks at him and the rest of the Leafs he seems to be the driving factor by a substantial margin. I'd take that kind of goal differential over an extra couple of individual points any day of the week.

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Old
12-12-2012, 04:43 PM
  #75
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This has to be a joke

Grabovski is a strong elite #2 centre with a defined role and an is an effective overall top 6 forward... These guys have value and are apart of a puzzle piece in building a championship. Lecavlier was that guy, actually he was even more, a guy who lead his team to a Stanley cup, but his past doesn't do anything for the leafs future... Don't get me wrong Lecavalier is currenly capable of playing an effective role in a top 6, but he will never be as good as his contract in his last years. So yes he is still an effective top 6 forward, but he has negative value because he has the worst contract in the entire NHL.

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