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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Lockout IV: One likes to believe in the freedom of hockey (Moderated: see post #2)

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12-12-2012, 07:26 AM
  #476
Melrose Munch
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I can't remember how many times as a kid whenever there was an NFL promo that came on hearing the words, "On any given Sunday." It's why the NFL is a huge success. MLB is taking the opposite approach and their gate receipts show it. If not for some mega-dollar local TV deals in big markets MLB would be bleeding cash.

I think the prices paid for TV rights for MLB are ridiculous, especially the deal the Dodgers just got. Talk about a bubble.
Are all MLB teams making money right now? Yes or No? That is something the will never happen in the NHL.

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12-12-2012, 07:29 AM
  #477
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How do you figure that? NBC will be forking out 200m for the next decade, and TSN and CBC will have new deals in the next couple of years. That alone will put the NHL over your 300m a yr plateau.

Edit. And that's on the national level. What about the local level? There's probably another 3-400m in local deals in the league. Now you're somewhere in the 6-700m range if you tally it all up. I know it's merely a drop in the bucket when you compare it to what the others are getting... but you have to start somewhere, and the NHL didn't really have a product that was capable of getting this until 05.
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I think Quebec City and Southern Ontario/Toronto2 would be fine. But yes, after that we're done.
US National deal is weak. NHL is unreliable.

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12-12-2012, 07:33 AM
  #478
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Originally Posted by LarmerSavardSecord View Post
Yeah, I suspect that TV deal will look bad pretty soon. But the NHL killed the TV revenue stream when they lost ESPN with the lockout. That incredibly powerful network moved on with NASCAR NCAAWBB, and the NBA. Fox (and CBS) were never a never good spots. The music stopped and NBC and the NHL were stuck together.

And it's just sorry that the EPL deal with NBC pays >50%/year vs the NHL deal (assuming rising payments over their contract.) The EPL games can't be viewed live in prime time! Most of the games are played while we are going to or at work or waking up on the weekends. It's a foreign league and (still) foreign sport! I think it's a brilliant move by NBC as the EPL/Euro soccer is on the rise here, but it's telling how much NBC has invested in the NHL.

The recent local TV deals for the two LA-based baseball teams (~13m population) together likely exceed the NBC-NHL deal over the next 10 years. Both deal stunned the media world, and they make the NHL deal look like peanuts and the NHL small time. It's the gilded era for TV deals (look at NCAAFB/BB, MLB, NFL, NCAAWBB, NASCAR) and the NHL gets peanuts with a second-rate platform.
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
The Dodgers deal alone will be worth more than 200 million per year for sure starting very soon.

And yes I totally agree with everything you said! And it's also scary because one of the reasons these leagues and teams can get such big deals is because sports is the one form of programming that fans want to watch live and hate seeing recorded. Who knows what that situation will be like in 10 years and what technology will be out by then. Maybe tv viewing will be way down who knows. They really missed out here.
Of course. And the MLS is not a slouch pulling 1 + billion with all its drawbacks.

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12-12-2012, 08:35 AM
  #479
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
US National deal is weak. NHL is unreliable.
Money-wise, but certainly not with coverage.

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12-12-2012, 08:41 AM
  #480
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
US National deal is weak. NHL is unreliable.
MM, what are your thoughts on the best way for the NHL to obtain a better US National TV deal when the NBC contract expires?

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12-12-2012, 09:01 AM
  #481
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NHL will never get a "good" U.S. national TV deal. When you are viewed as a fringe sport in the same league as bass fishing by U.S. TV execs, you need to move the goal posts closer and change your overall strategy. I really hope Bettman eventually realizes that.

Niche sports won't get NBA type TV deals and American culture won't change their mind about hockey enough to force TV execs to care.

ESPN views the NHL and WNBA as similar products. Just incase anybody doesn't know, the WNBA is a total joke and is completely subsidized by NBA profits. I am judging this by the TV deal ESPN offered the NHL. Seriously, ESPN2 being the only channel to show NHL is embarrassing. The dominance of the networks won't change anytime soon. ESPN is only going to gain more power and Fox would never put NHL on if baseball, football or NASCAR is on.


Last edited by WingedWheel1987: 12-12-2012 at 09:09 AM.
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12-12-2012, 09:42 AM
  #482
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
NHL will never get a "good" U.S. national TV deal. When you are viewed as a fringe sport in the same league as bass fishing by U.S. TV execs, you need to move the goal posts closer and change your overall strategy. I really hope Bettman eventually realizes that.

Niche sports won't get NBA type TV deals and American culture won't change their mind about hockey enough to force TV execs to care.

ESPN views the NHL and WNBA as similar products. Just incase anybody doesn't know, the WNBA is a total joke and is completely subsidized by NBA profits. I am judging this by the TV deal ESPN offered the NHL. Seriously, ESPN2 being the only channel to show NHL is embarrassing. The dominance of the networks won't change anytime soon. ESPN is only going to gain more power and Fox would never put NHL on if baseball, football or NASCAR is on.
I don't get why people and Bettman don't get this. The NHL has been trying, unsuccessfully, since 1970 to get a "good" TV deal in the states. The NHL has tried everything including putting teams in very questionable places in the hopes that the TV gods will one day say " hey, we better start broadcasting this ". It's not happening. And even the TV deal the NHL does manage to get someone to go along with, requires them to show mostly the original 6 teams or just the eastern teams.

If you are not on ESPN ( primary ) you do not exist as a sport. That's the bottom line.

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12-12-2012, 09:49 AM
  #483
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People like events, it makes life easier. One of the reasons people like CL, and F1. Your team playing 82 matches a year, multiple times a week, makes the one particular game much less entertaining.
Well, if the NHL becomes an "event", they better triple the size of the arenas to lessen the loss of revenue from having so many games.

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12-12-2012, 09:56 AM
  #484
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I wonder if it might be smarter to do two non-exclusive deals on, say, ESPN/ABC and NBC/NBCSN rather than one exclusive deal with either.

Will most likely generate lower immediate revenues but it would create an incentive for each broadcast company to outperform the other in terms of production quality and ancillary advertising via highlight shows and talk shows.

That'll, in my opinion, drum up more fan interest than hiding the league on a loving but still relatively unknown NBCSN.

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12-12-2012, 10:04 AM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Are all MLB teams making money right now? Yes or No? That is something the will never happen in the NHL.
Does MLB have a sustainable business model? Yes or No?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...69O4GQ20101025

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...56582750.html#

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...all-popularity

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12-12-2012, 10:11 AM
  #486
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Not that they had the chance at a great TV deal but let's just pretend for a second that they did... This lockout just pissed that opportunity right down the drain.

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12-12-2012, 10:13 AM
  #487
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Why are you answering a question with a question? Just answer are all MLB teams making money. I want to hear, no if ands or buts.

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12-12-2012, 10:15 AM
  #488
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
MM, what are your thoughts on the best way for the NHL to obtain a better US National TV deal when the NBC contract expires?
Multiple TV networks with a game of the week in the Central, West And East Timezones. Part of the reason for the lack of growth is the focus on our team (Rangers ) and the others in the northeast corridor.

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12-12-2012, 10:16 AM
  #489
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Money-wise, but certainly not with coverage.
Fair, but our teams always get covered.

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12-12-2012, 10:17 AM
  #490
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Forget TV. Go with the internet.

I wonder how much Google would pay to have exclusive streaming rights for NHL broadcasts.

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12-12-2012, 10:20 AM
  #491
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Not that they had the chance at a great TV deal but let's just pretend for a second that they did... This lockout just pissed that opportunity right down the drain.
I agree. The NHL was building support (slowly mind you), but that is gone now. It will take a decade of uninterrupted seasons before anyone takes a chance on a huge TV deal. Even at that point there had better not be any rumblings of labour stoppages.

Absolutely insane what both management and labour are doing to the NHL as an entity. I find it hard to believe that there are very smart, successful people on both sides, although there are.

I don't think anything is as important as building a broader fan base, and attracting bigger, better sponsors. It's not going to happen the way that it's being run now.

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12-12-2012, 10:21 AM
  #492
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The MLB model works. Enthusiasm for the game at the most basic level doesn't refute that. its only natural that the sport isn't as popular when you had a complete stranglehold in youth sports for such a long time. MLB isn't going to decline to the point where the NHL can compete with it. A bad MLB would still be better than an amazing year for the NHL.

The NHL is not going to end up being more popular than any of the other major sports leagues in our lifetime. I am 25.

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12-12-2012, 10:24 AM
  #493
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‘Dysfunctional’ Business Model Puts the N.H.L. in Peril, Experts Say
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/12/sp...-say.html?_r=0

Rather than speculation about how fans and corporate sponsors will respond, which ultimately in the end the writer questions anyway
Quote:
But the N.B.A. came back from a truncated season last year and had its best metrics across the board, Cooper said. “If that can happen,” he said, “maybe the N.H.L. can come back too.
... I'd rather read some specifics about exactly how he sees the NHL business model as being "dysfunctional." I'm not saying that it isn't dysfunctional, but if you're going to make that claim then back it up with some specifics.

"Expert" at what exactly?? Running off at the mouth and saying very little that any ordinary observer couldn't also say.

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12-12-2012, 10:27 AM
  #494
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i dont wanna read through a bunch of stuff

are things looking good or no?

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12-12-2012, 10:30 AM
  #495
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‘Dysfunctional’ Business Model Puts the N.H.L. in Peril, Experts Say
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/12/sp...-say.html?_r=0

Rather than speculation about how fans and corporate sponsors will respond, which ultimately in the end the writer questions anyway ... I'd rather read some specifics about exactly how he sees the NHL business model as being "dysfunctional." I'm not saying that it isn't dysfunctional, but if you're going to make that claim then back it up with some specifics.

"Expert" at what exactly?? Running off at the mouth and saying very little that any ordinary observer couldn't also say.
I imagine the dysfunctional part is how 70% of the revenue is generated by three teams. NHL has too much dead weight dragging it down. Unfortunately the mind set that having a ton of teams in U.S. markets generates more revenue won't go away.

NHL needs to play to its strengths and stop wasting their time in non hockey markets that will never view their local NHL team as nothing more than a "plan D" on a Friday night.

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12-12-2012, 10:30 AM
  #496
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Why are you answering a question with a question? Just answer are all MLB teams making money. I want to hear, no if ands or buts.
I answered your question.

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12-12-2012, 10:35 AM
  #497
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I imagine the dysfunctional part is how 70% of the revenue is generated by three teams. NHL has too much dead weight dragging it down. Unfortunately the mind set that having a ton of teams in U.S. markets generates more revenue won't go away.

NHL needs to play to its strengths and stop wasting their time in non hockey markets that will never view their local NHL team as nothing more than a "plan D" on a Friday night.
That's profit, not revenue. There's a HUGE difference.

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12-12-2012, 10:35 AM
  #498
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I wonder how much Google would pay to have exclusive streaming rights for NHL broadcasts.
Take whatever number you have in your head.


Then divide by 15.

This product isn't worth peanuts and is at an all-time low.

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12-12-2012, 10:39 AM
  #499
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That's profit, not revenue. There's a HUGE difference.
That makes it even worse. It's not like Toronto is ever operating in the red so it doesn't matter.

Toronto, NY and Montreal are the big three right? With 4-5 U.S. teams making a healthy profit and the rest either in the red or deep in the red even with revenue sharing and funding by the city they are located in.

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12-12-2012, 10:49 AM
  #500
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I imagine the dysfunctional part is how 70% of the revenue is generated by three teams. NHL has too much dead weight dragging it down. Unfortunately the mind set that having a ton of teams in U.S. markets generates more revenue won't go away.

NHL needs to play to its strengths and stop wasting their time in non hockey markets that will never view their local NHL team as nothing more than a "plan D" on a Friday night.
And just exactly how is that a "dysfunctional business model"? The NHL uses a business model that results in 3 teams generating 70% of the revenue or profit... Interesting model. Stupid it would also be, Yes, if the League did somehow create a business model that resulted in that economic reality.

So, the League needs to "play to its strengths", as you say... Yes, let's have a 3 to 6 team League again. Because certainly no franchise outside the top 3 to 7 can compete with the top 3 to 7 economically.

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