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No More Lockout Blues! - 2012 Lockout Part 2 [UPD: AGREEMENT REACHED!]

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12-12-2012, 08:56 AM
  #676
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Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
So, what's everyone thinking? Do we see the two sides come to an agreement in the next week or so which would allow for a January 1st start-up? Or do they play this right to the end of the road in mid-January (to go with a minimum 48 game schedule) and negotiate with the season dangling on a string?

The optimist in me says we get it done for January 1st, but the realist in me says these two sides will play the game of chicken right until the 11th hour.
Oh man, without Fehr in the picture I think we see a January 1st startup. With him in the picture we see at best a 48 game schedule starting later in January. He's just not interested in the game being played, he's far more interested in the battle it would seem. If the owners move again then I think the PA gets to declare "victory" for whatever it is worth. Unfortunately I can also see the scorched earth, no season as a possibility for this year. The PA needs to be cautious about pushing back too hard. By all means get what you can but the NHL's reaction last week, scripted or not, must have opened some eyes.

On the realignment question I think they have a lot of schedules made up and have had all along. They just have various lengths and different start dates. I think based on the PAs earlier rejection of realignment the Jets play this year in the SE. I hope they win and get the banner, that would be awesome.

Totally opposed to a Canadian division. When the Jets left, I never adopted the Flames/Oilers/Nucks as a team to watch, they were forever Smythe rivals (in spite of changes to the division over time). And while former rivals, I just don't want to be in the division with them because they aren't a draw for me. I acknowledge that lots of people would love to see those teams a lot more frequently, but I loved the notion of seeing the Hawks, Wings, Blues and Wild three times a year. A couple of original six teams, an early expansion franchise with lots of history and our most natural geographic rival. Columbus and Dallas are fine as well. And who am I forgetting? Plus we'd see the western conference teams twice anyway.

The most important part of realignment to me is that we see the Eastern teams once a year as was proposed in the home and home arrangement rather than the current once per year alternating home sites. The Wings and Hawks are the only teams for me that rate highly as must sees out of the Western Conference.

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12-12-2012, 09:06 AM
  #677
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Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
So, what's everyone thinking? Do we see the two sides come to an agreement in the next week or so which would allow for a January 1st start-up? Or do they play this right to the end of the road in mid-January (to go with a minimum 48 game schedule) and negotiate with the season dangling on a string?

The optimist in me says we get it done for January 1st, but the realist in me says these two sides will play the game of chicken right until the 11th hour.
The optimist in me says a Dec 31st start with all 30 teams in action. A great way to bring in a new year. This would allow a 56 game schedule. On the surface they aren't that far apart. From all reports most players prefer a 10 year CBA and if you divide up the other issues there has to be room to get this done relatively soon.

But you are probably right and both sides will have to get to the edge of the cliff and look down before it gets settled.

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12-12-2012, 09:10 AM
  #678
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25% chance the season starts jan 1st
50% chance mid jan 48 game season
25% chance no season

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12-12-2012, 09:37 AM
  #679
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25% chance the season starts jan 1st
50% chance mid jan 48 game season
25% chance no season
If they get this done ASAP IMO the league will start on Dec 31st rather than Jan 1st. It is already a big hockey day, and Jan 1 was pretty much reserved the Winter classic, so without it I can't see the NHL wanting to compete head to head with bowl day in the States.

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12-12-2012, 09:38 AM
  #680
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If they get this done ASAP IMO the league will start on Dec 31st rather than Jan 1st. It is already a big hockey day, and Jan 1 was pretty much reserved the Winter classic, so without it I can't see the NHL wanting to compete head to head with bowl day in the States.
Give us our New Year's Eve game. ;_;

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12-12-2012, 10:13 AM
  #681
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I'm pretty sure if they don't make some serious progress today, we are going to lose the season. I'm on Mtn/Cen time, so they should be heading in right about now I would think. Lets all hope for a long day, or a short one with an agreement clasped in Gary Bettman's hot little hand.

It really doesnt seem like they are that far away, so there is really no reason for them to not have an agreement today. My impression from what I've heard is that the only things that need to be resolved is the maximum contract length and the length of the CBA. I could very well be mistaken about that.

I think from the players POV they've conceeded on pretty much everything including taking a huge cut to their share of HRR of 7%, that they want a few things to work out in the players favor. I understand that position, even if I don't agree with it(which i dont), I'm not sure its worth losing as much money as they stand to.

Definitely cutting off their nose to spite their face.

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Old
12-12-2012, 10:16 AM
  #682
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Originally Posted by DespoticNewt View Post
Give us our New Year's Eve game. ;_;
I'd love it. I'm off work that week and with the WJC in full swing with no overlap in times I will emerse myself in hockey for a week.

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12-12-2012, 12:45 PM
  #683
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
I'm pretty sure if they don't make some serious progress today, we are going to lose the season. I'm on Mtn/Cen time, so they should be heading in right about now I would think. Lets all hope for a long day, or a short one with an agreement clasped in Gary Bettman's hot little hand.
I don't think anyone can know when they are going to sign this, except it is clear (to me, at least) that they will. The first '11th hour' came and went a long time ago, when the players lost their first paycheck. At that point, Fehr's brinkmanship style became a losing proposition. The only other 11th hour I see ahead is the second week in Jan, when the season is truly on the brink.
Personally, I would like them to wait till the WJC is over so there is no conflict with the players or fans.
As for realignment, I agree with those who do not want a Cdn division. I think long travel and crossing time zones continually can cause sleep and performance problems over a long season. The bigger reason is that I like the idea of a North-South hockey axis, so that the 'Canadian game' is not confined to Canada. I haven't really thought it through, but something in me says that promoting rivalries between Canadian and American teams will grow the game better.

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12-12-2012, 12:57 PM
  #684
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
I don't think anyone can know when they are going to sign this, except it is clear (to me, at least) that they will. The first '11th hour' came and went a long time ago, when the players lost their first paycheck. At that point, Fehr's brinkmanship style became a losing proposition. The only other 11th hour I see ahead is the second week in Jan, when the season is truly on the brink.
Personally, I would like them to wait till the WJC is over so there is no conflict with the players or fans.
As for realignment, I agree with those who do not want a Cdn division. I think long travel and crossing time zones continually can cause sleep and performance problems over a long season. The bigger reason is that I like the idea of a North-South hockey axis, so that the 'Canadian game' is not confined to Canada. I haven't really thought it through, but something in me says that promoting rivalries between Canadian and American teams will grow the game better.
I wasnt really serious about the Canadian division. Forthe Jets its not as big deal as its only two-three hours either way, but its like four hours across the conference for montreal, ottawa, and toronto to go to Vancouver and vice versa.

I find that winnipeg is trying to adopt a gritty defensive style whule alot of the canadian teams are run and gun/offense heavy.

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12-12-2012, 01:12 PM
  #685
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Here's an interesting question. Let's say the NHL and PA finally sign a deal, completed for a shortened season this year. We all know re-alignment has to be a part of it (Jets will not stay in SE longterm, it just makes no sense). Since they are going to have to redraw the entire schedule anyways, will the Jets get moved instantly this year? Or have to wait until next season?


I think the Jets would play this season in the South East.

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12-12-2012, 01:49 PM
  #686
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Originally Posted by SensibleGuy View Post
25% chance the season starts jan 1st
50% chance mid jan 48 game season
25% chance no season
I think this is pretty close.

I'm still hopeful for a mid-january start, and feel that is still the 'deadline' the players are working towards.

To me, the players goal going in was to minimize the loss in their earning power AND be a tough negotiator, so future CBA negotiations go far more smoothly. Its not the players bending over every time. They still may have to 'delay, and delay' these negotiations to really make that point - "that we'll play hard ball just as much as you, if you continue to cut salaries and contracting rights during CBA negotiations". To me, that's what they really mean about this negotiation is for future players. Not so much $$, right now, but how negotiations will go in the future.

The owners goal was to cut salaries - starting year 1, get to 50/50 revenue split like other leagues and eliminate crazy long-term contracts. They (most) seem unwilling in paying now but eventually getting to a fair deal. Players want to get paid now, and be a pain in the ass so they don't get cut in the future.

There's a deal there, as the $$ can be worked out, imo, and the owners know they are being a pain in the ass and will be a tough negotiator, in the future.


Last edited by Bob E: 12-12-2012 at 04:07 PM.
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Old
12-12-2012, 03:06 PM
  #687
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
I don't think anyone can know when they are going to sign this, except it is clear (to me, at least) that they will. The first '11th hour' came and went a long time ago, when the players lost their first paycheck. At that point, Fehr's brinkmanship style became a losing proposition. The only other 11th hour I see ahead is the second week in Jan, when the season is truly on the brink.
Personally, I would like them to wait till the WJC is over so there is no conflict with the players or fans.
As for realignment, I agree with those who do not want a Cdn division. I think long travel and crossing time zones continually can cause sleep and performance problems over a long season. The bigger reason is that I like the idea of a North-South hockey axis, so that the 'Canadian game' is not confined to Canada. I haven't really thought it through, but something in me says that promoting rivalries between Canadian and American teams will grow the game better.

Agree with you that the 11th hour for the season doesn't come until January when there will be a drop dead date for a season. I fully expect Fehr to tie his anchor to that date and he'll either sink and the season will be a no go or he'll swim and get the best offer he can for his union.

These two sides have come this far, in which I personally never thought they would. I don't see them stopping anywhere short of the season being a tick on the clock away from being completely shut down. This is a game of chicken now, and it's going to come down to Bettman and co. vs. Fehr and co. to see who can muster just a little bit more from the other before all is said and done.

I think we see hockey this season, at least I hope we do. But at this point with the circus show both sides have put on, I won't be the least bit surprise if there is no season. Never thought I'd say or see that from this lockout. I didn't think it would come to this point.

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Old
12-12-2012, 04:54 PM
  #688
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According to Dreger's twitter...

Today's meetings were only planned as a one day event. If they meet again tomorrow, it will be a good thing but doesn't mean that a deal is imminent. The NHL didnt sound like they were going to be flexible.

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12-12-2012, 05:16 PM
  #689
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according to dreger, they didnt even meet face to face today and there has been no change in position since thursday.

not looking good.

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12-12-2012, 07:24 PM
  #690
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Put me in "just get it over with and cancel the season already" camp.

Unions protect the overpaid and lazy.

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12-12-2012, 07:45 PM
  #691
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Put me in "just get it over with and cancel the season already" camp.

Unions protect the overpaid and lazy.
Ugh
So much truth
I have such distain for unions

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12-13-2012, 10:03 AM
  #692
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Anyone know if they're meeting again or not today?

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12-13-2012, 10:38 AM
  #693
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I think this is pretty close.

I'm still hopeful for a mid-january start, and feel that is still the 'deadline' the players are working towards.

To me, the players goal going in was to minimize the loss in their earning power AND be a tough negotiator, so future CBA negotiations go far more smoothly. Its not the players bending over every time. They still may have to 'delay, and delay' these negotiations to really make that point - "that we'll play hard ball just as much as you, if you continue to cut salaries and contracting rights during CBA negotiations". To me, that's what they really mean about this negotiation is for future players. Not so much $$, right now, but how negotiations will go in the future.

The owners goal was to cut salaries - starting year 1, get to 50/50 revenue split like other leagues and eliminate crazy long-term contracts. They (most) seem unwilling in paying now but eventually getting to a fair deal. Players want to get paid now, and be a pain in the ass so they don't get cut in the future.

There's a deal there, as the $$ can be worked out, imo, and the owners know they are being a pain in the ass and will be a tough negotiator, in the future.
I agree with this, especially the bold parts. I really respect what the Players have done. This has been a money grab by the owners and they've been extremely successful. A 12%+ rollback on salaries on the heels of a 24% rollback last time around.

I'm not sure why the owners keep coming back with "final offers" (which are invariably met by silence by the shrewd negotiating opponent). If they want to give and take on the remaining items, there's a deal to be had.

My criticism on the NHLPA side is that they know the best offer will be the one in front of them on the last day before the season is cancelled. They are negotiating stubbornly in light of this. From a fan's standpoint, it's frustrating. From a Union perspective, it's somewhat understandable.

I hope the NHL hasn't killed all momentum with NBCSports. Increase revenue sharing aside, National TV contracts, at the end of the day, were going to do far more for the health of struggling markets than a few more percent cut from player costs.

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12-13-2012, 10:39 AM
  #694
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Word was yesterday's meeting was planned as a one day exercise. I haven't seen anything indicating they're meeting today.
EDIT: Apparently there was an informal meeting this morning. No decision made in regards to a formal sit down for today.

On the other hand, last night I had a dream the season got saved in time for the New Year's Eve game. So y'know, you heard it here first


Last edited by wpgsilver: 12-13-2012 at 10:46 AM.
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12-13-2012, 11:13 AM
  #695
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I find myself going back and forth between " cancel the season and make the players feel the hurt of losing a years pay" and " a 48 game season is better than nothing, and at least it will allow next year to start clean"
my guess is we'll end up with the agreement signed at the last minute and we'll get our short 48 game "sprint to the playoffs" season
... this whole thing is beyond ridiculous now and is such a major buzzkill after the great year last year.

I guess the only worse scenario would have been if the CBA had expired in Sept 2011 rather than Sept 2012, and this would all be happening as we were heading in to the Jets first season back rather than the second - what a nightmare THAT would have been

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12-13-2012, 01:09 PM
  #696
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Originally Posted by Back in the Bigs View Post
I find myself going back and forth between " cancel the season and make the players feel the hurt of losing a years pay" and " a 48 game season is better than nothing, and at least it will allow next year to start clean"
my guess is we'll end up with the agreement signed at the last minute and we'll get our short 48 game "sprint to the playoffs" season
... this whole thing is beyond ridiculous now and is such a major buzzkill after the great year last year.

I guess the only worse scenario would have been if the CBA had expired in Sept 2011 rather than Sept 2012, and this would all be happening as we were heading in to the Jets first season back rather than the second - what a nightmare THAT would have been
This for me Back in the Bigs. If we lose this season there is zero guarantee either side changes their ways anytime soon and we could be back in this pickle jar next year.......there goes the draft, training camps, free agency issues are a gong show.....etc etc.

Also I think a 48 game sprint would be really interesting. Sadly if we get off to a slow start or run into goaltending issues we could be out of the running before we get going. The margin of error would be oh so slim. However, on the flip side, if have a hot streak we could find ourselves making the playoffs when we might have missed it over a full 82 season???

If they do manage to salvage 48 games the season would be weird and compressed but the playoffs would be the playoffs and it would go a long way to helping some (not all) fans get passed their current state of emotions. I am a very casual NBA fan and by the time the playoffs were over last year and Miami won I had forgotten about the lock out before Christmas. I am sure some NBA fans were still pi55ed but as a casual fan I was more interested in the playoffs anyways and I am sure there are some NHL fans that would fall under that umbrella.

That being said if it collapses I will not lose any sleep because both sides will have reaped what they've sown

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Old
12-13-2012, 02:04 PM
  #697
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the one 'nugget of good' I clung to when they were talking lockout this fall was that at least Bogo would get a chance to heal some before we played games. In that respect, we should probably hope for a last second deal

Anything to ease the pain.

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12-13-2012, 06:46 PM
  #698
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I wish the NHL just end this pony show. Call it a season and start playing next year. They can have half a year to talk.

Personally I strongly think there will be no NHL hockey this year and it may even spill over into next year. As for the Jets current schedule right now, That's out the window.

Even if they play a 48 game season a new schedule would need to be produced.

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12-14-2012, 08:04 AM
  #699
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Not that I expect the prez to actually do anything about the lockout, but really...a comment as banal and meaningless as "you guys make a lot of money, so do right by the fans" doesn't even warrant mention by the media.

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12-14-2012, 09:49 AM
  #700
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An interesting article by ESPN's Burnside that is making the rounds where an anonymous Board of governors member presented a compromise deal that players (some) were receptive to:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...cba-right-here

now who knows If the owners could agree to such an offer?

My "new" firm belief is that nothing serious will happen now until both sides are pressed up against a legit deadline or the edge of the cliff.

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