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*OFFICIAL* Kitchener Rangers 2012-13 Season Thread

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Old
12-11-2012, 04:08 PM
  #976
KnightRanger
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Seems by the last several posts that everyone seems to agree that Spott is a larger part of the problem then the solution. It brings to question.....why is Hockey Canada so high on this guy? Why is he coaching our National Junior team and why was he given a long contract extension?

I have never got a good answer to these questions yet have asked for a long time now. What is it that he has on his resume that he deserves this type of recognition for?

Can someone fill me in?

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12-11-2012, 06:12 PM
  #977
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Doesn't Spott's history suggest he will simply stand pat? What is there to suggest that will change....
Nothing, at least so far anyway. The closest he's come to a rebuild was in '09 when he dealt Mashinter to Belleville for Randell, and Timmins, Shutron and Unice to Windsor for Maxwell and picks. Not too bad, but could have been better if he didn't screw up dealing Unice early on that season. He was apparently offered Justin Shugg even up for Unice but held out for more. Instead of holding out for more, he held out long enough for Unice's stock to fall to the point where he was merely a throw in, in the above deal.

I'm here to say that if Spott is unsuccessful in making significant additions to this team, and consequently stands pat instead of selling, then there may be other forces at work.

I'm wondering if Spott has been given a mandate to not sell the farm which would result in a first round exit - or worse. In other words, if the team can get past the first round, then don't sell because two rounds of playoff dates mean more to the bottom line than the alternative.

I mean, they do have that major addition to pay for!

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12-12-2012, 08:25 AM
  #978
Tim Wallach
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Originally Posted by KnightRanger View Post
Seems by the last several posts that everyone seems to agree that Spott is a larger part of the problem then the solution. It brings to question.....why is Hockey Canada so high on this guy? Why is he coaching our National Junior team and why was he given a long contract extension?

I have never got a good answer to these questions yet have asked for a long time now. What is it that he has on his resume that he deserves this type of recognition for?

Can someone fill me in?
Such a hard question to give a concrete answer to. As near as I can figure, it's because he has a long history of success working alongside DeBoer, which got him his head coaching gig in Kitchener. And like DeBoer, it got him on the radar of Hockey Canada.

Working with Hockey Canada is like applying for a job. You enter the program of excellence and take steps through training and summer commitments to become an assistant with the U-17s or U-18s, working your way up to your shot with the big team. Spott got his as an assistant in 2010. Once you're in the club, so-to-speak, you simply need to bide your time and make the right connections.

There's no doubt Spott is a top-notch schmoozer, who says all the right things and makes all the right friends. And he's obviously not a terrible coach as he has gotten decent results from his teams.

But all of his hob-nobbing and reputational capital is starting to show some cracks as the longer he is left on his own as the man in charge, the more his flaws and weaknesses as a motivator and tactician get exposed.

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12-12-2012, 08:35 AM
  #979
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Originally Posted by Tim Wallach View Post
But all of his hob-nobbing and reputational capital is starting to show some cracks as the longer he is left on his own as the man in charge, the more his flaws and weaknesses as a motivator and tactician get exposed.

Plus his weakness as a trader in getting fair value and his questionable drafting of players.

What will be interesting to see if there's a drop off in STH holders the next few years. With the increased seating capacity and a probable lower echelon team there may not be demand for tickets as in seasons past.
I suspect some STHs will not want to shell out $500+ when they can get walk-up tickets on game day!

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12-12-2012, 10:05 AM
  #980
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Plus his weakness as a trader in getting fair value and his questionable drafting of players.
Agreed. I was just referring to his limitations on the coaching side as per the question about Hockey Canada's interest in him.

As for STH demand, I can see it dropping for sure. This year has been just plain boring. Ever since Spott took over, the style of play has been so vanilla, but this year, in particular, there isn't much to hook in the new fans.

The question is: How long can Spott live on goodwill created by the DeBoer years? And how long can the team's ticket demands live on the same thing?

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12-12-2012, 10:11 AM
  #981
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In regards to Hockey Canada though, there is a difference in Spott the coach and to Spott the GM. Spott the coach can be a great motivater. Spott the GM seems to overpay at times and not get a great return on others. Really two different positions.

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12-12-2012, 10:20 AM
  #982
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Originally Posted by BenchedGuy View Post
Spott the coach can be a great motivater.

I'm not sure I've seen that.

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12-12-2012, 10:24 AM
  #983
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The question is: How long can Spott live on goodwill created by the DeBoer years?
For me.....it's time up on the goodwill!
The blueprint on how to build a winner has been written by numerous teams in multiple sport leagues and Spott seemed to want to go against all convention! Hopefully he can pull a rabbit or two out of his hat.

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12-12-2012, 10:39 AM
  #984
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Why does nobody talk about the trade Spott made with Kingston a year and a half ago, a 2nd + a 6th rd pick for Faksa + Palazzese?

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12-12-2012, 11:54 AM
  #985
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I'm hearing that Meighan has been offered to a few teams. That does not make me happy. The kid is stellar on faceoffs, has shown great chemistry with Bailey/Pederson (albeit in very limited ice time together), and is one of those players I wouldn't want to see develop into a Scott Timmins type player with some other team.

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Old
12-12-2012, 12:27 PM
  #986
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I'm hearing that Meighan has been offered to a few teams. That does not make me happy. The kid is stellar on faceoffs, has shown great chemistry with Bailey/Pederson (albeit in very limited ice time together), and is one of those players I wouldn't want to see develop into a Scott Timmins type player with some other team.
I hear you about his effort and smarts. But I don't personally think he'll ever be anything more than Timmins Lite.

He's a bit smaller and definitely doesn't have the offensive chops. I know Timmins didn't score much at that age either, but he had far more aggression and showed more of a clue with the puck.

I like Curtis, but I don't have a problem dangling him for the right trade. As hard as it is to admit, I think you'll find Meighans are fairly easy to replace.

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12-12-2012, 12:30 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by Luvtowatch View Post
Why does nobody talk about the trade Spott made with Kingston a year and a half ago, a 2nd + a 6th rd pick for Faksa + Palazzese?
Spott has made some decent deals. It's hard to even argue with the Landeskog or Puempel deals in terms of value-for-value.

I personally have more problems with him as a coach. Zero tactics. He has one card to play at all times and players just don't develop much.

As a GM, it's certainly a fair criticism that he too often gets too little for his assets and gives up too much when buying, but he's not inept. Far and away his biggest downfall as a GM if you ask me is failing to understand when he should buy or sell. And too often being conservative and more or less standing pat.

No GM should ever get caught with one 2nd and one 3rd in four drafts without a true title contention.

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12-12-2012, 12:34 PM
  #988
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Originally Posted by Tim Wallach View Post
Spott has made some decent deals. It's hard to even argue with the Landeskog or Puempel deals in terms of value-for-value.

I personally have more problems with him as a coach. Zero tactics. He has one card to play at all times and players just don't develop much.

As a GM, it's certainly a fair criticism that he too often gets too little for his assets and gives up too much when buying, but he's not inept. Far and away his biggest downfall as a GM if you ask me is failing to understand when he should buy or sell. And too often being conservative and more or less standing pat.

No GM should ever get caught with one 2nd and one 3rd in four drafts without a true title contention.
He should definately be selling now.

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Old
12-12-2012, 12:44 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Tim Wallach View Post
Spott has made some decent deals. It's hard to even argue with the Landeskog or Puempel deals in terms of value-for-value.

I personally have more problems with him as a coach. Zero tactics. He has one card to play at all times and players just don't develop much.

As a GM, it's certainly a fair criticism that he too often gets too little for his assets and gives up too much when buying, but he's not inept. Far and away his biggest downfall as a GM if you ask me is failing to understand when he should buy or sell. And too often being conservative and more or less standing pat.

No GM should ever get caught with one 2nd and one 3rd in four drafts without a true title contention.
Perhaps this just speaks to the difficulty in combining both Coach and GM jobs in today's junior hockey world....

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12-12-2012, 02:07 PM
  #990
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People are often quick to call Spott a bad GM.

Looking at the deals he has made at the helm, the only ones he has 'lost' are ones where he gives a mid round pick for a player that doesnt matterialize, such as Czinder and Alberga.

Puempel for 2 2nds and Lorentz- BIG win
Landeskog for Tatar - BIG win
Palazzese for mid round picks - BIG win
Iafrate for a 3rd and mid rounder - Win
Matt Tipoff and Tobias Reider(import pick) for Aleadi and our Import pick - HUGE WIN

Where he loses is when he makes no deal at all. He is aprehensive about losing a trade it seems, and thus wont make it. Sometimes too worried that the price is one pick to many for his liking, but at the end of the day, that player would have brought more immediate value to the club then that pick would have, even if recovered at a later date.

Im the kind of fan that takes the good with the bad, given I am presented with an effort. If I see that he tried to make things happen, and it didnt work out, I'm not going to call for his job. Others might, I wont. I understand things go awry at times. What is inexcusable is when the team sits at the edge of the pool with its toes in the water, and wont decide between diving in, or going back inside.

We need Spott to decide whether this team is going for a dip, whether they sink or swim is irrelevent, or if they are going to pack up their things and go home. But lets be damned sure we dont sit pool side all day!

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12-12-2012, 02:46 PM
  #991
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Some good perspective and thoughts here.

I agree with Wallach and Oryx.

Gotta be aggressive when deciding which way to go. Make the decision and go for it.

Would one move have made a difference against Windsor a few years ago? You gotta take the chance when its there (even if you overpay a bit) and know when its not there and sell accordingly.

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Old
12-12-2012, 02:48 PM
  #992
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Originally Posted by ORYX View Post
People are often quick to call Spott a bad GM.

Looking at the deals he has made at the helm, the only ones he has 'lost' are ones where he gives a mid round pick for a player that doesnt matterialize, such as Czinder and Alberga.

Puempel for 2 2nds and Lorentz- BIG win
Landeskog for Tatar - BIG win
Palazzese for mid round picks - BIG win
Iafrate for a 3rd and mid rounder - Win
Matt Tipoff and Tobias Reider(import pick) for Aleadi and our Import pick - HUGE WIN
If only those were the actual deals. Iafrate was acquired for two third round picks and an exchange of import picks.
And Landeskog was not for Tatar. It was for Tatar, our 1st import pick, a 2nd and a 4th for Gabe and their 2nd import pick.

I'm not arguing with you though. Spott obviously had some wins as a GM along with his losses. I just wouldn't want to mis-represent the quality of the deals.

A counter argument could say he got ripped off for Melchiori, got lucky on Palazzese and really only clearly won the Belleville deal. But I'd say he's at least a decent GM. Too many picks thrown away though.

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12-12-2012, 06:24 PM
  #993
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If only those were the actual deals. Iafrate was acquired for two third round picks and an exchange of import picks.
And Landeskog was not for Tatar. It was for Tatar, our 1st import pick, a 2nd and a 4th for Gabe and their 2nd import pick.

I'm not arguing with you though. Spott obviously had some wins as a GM along with his losses. I just wouldn't want to mis-represent the quality of the deals.

A counter argument could say he got ripped off for Melchiori, got lucky on Palazzese and really only clearly won the Belleville deal. But I'd say he's at least a decent GM. Too many picks thrown away though.


Agree on most this. Add the fact that Landeskog was coming here anyway, and the big "win" in that deal was much like the Puempel deal - nobody to bid against results in a decent trade.

For the most part, the import draft is much more "cooked up" than the OHL draft thanks to the agents. Landeskog was coming here period. Plymouth, the only other OHL team picking ahead of the Rangers had their import player (who's name escapes me) locked up too. but a team in either the west or the Q picked that player and Vellucci was caught with his pants down. What to do with 5-10 minutes between picks? Answer, take Landeskog, who he knew was going to the Rangers, and force a trade.

When Plymouth drafted Lando, Spott likely did the same dance that Rychel did when the Colts selected Kerby! Then, he had to think quick, and took a player who wasn't going to play junior (common knowledge. Again, the agents knew this), but could include in the deal to Plymouth, who would hope the NHL team owning his rights (Detroit) would get him to play junior in their backyard.

I may be wrong or partially wrong on this part, but IIRC, Kitchener had to send another pick to Plymouth when Tatar didn't report? Also, some/none of the picks would go to Plymouth if Lando did not play at least one game for the Rangers during the 20010-11 season (since he hadn't yet played in the OHL yet, there was a fear that he may opt to go back to Sweden after only one OHL season).


As far as Palazzese goes, I think he got lucky on it but he made that deal, IIRC, at the urging of goalie coach Piero Greco, who was familiar with Frankie and thought he was better than his value at that point. Hats off to Piero!

The hands down best deal he did was the Belleville deal -Aleardi and a 5th for Tipoff and their import pick (Rieder).


I'd also like to point out the Cody Sol deal. That was a winner too. Sol and Matt Braun for Mickey Sartoretto and a couple picks (either a 2nd and a 3rd or two 2nds or two 3rds). We got two very good years out of Sol - despite the fact some of the fanbase didn't like him, he was a rock on the backend and always played against the other team's top players.

I think Spott the GM has been decent in his deals, but I find he doesn't sell when he should or as has been said, come out on top when in a bidding war for a player (Austin Watson is a prime example)

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12-12-2012, 06:37 PM
  #994
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I'm hearing that Meighan has been offered to a few teams. That does not make me happy. The kid is stellar on faceoffs, has shown great chemistry with Bailey/Pederson (albeit in very limited ice time together), and is one of those players I wouldn't want to see develop into a Scott Timmins type player with some other team.

I'm not happy about that either. As far as I'm concerned, I think Meighan can become another Scott Timmins and in the few shifts he's had with Pederson and Bailey, he does have decent hands. I would expect that next year, with more icetime with players other than 16 year old rookies he's been playing with most of the time, he can put up the same numbers and play the same role that Timmins did at the same age. I see Meighan as possible captain material in his OA season.

If you're going to offer a '94 forward, why not offer Marcantuoni? He's been given many opportunities now and hasn't started putting up points. I think it's evident now that what we've gotten out of him in a Ranger uniform is all we're going to get.

MM is a prime player for a change of scenery. Using that sales pitch, Spott would likely get more in return for him than he would for Meighan. It's not like we're going to miss his offense.

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12-12-2012, 06:45 PM
  #995
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Originally Posted by aresknights View Post
Some good perspective and thoughts here.

I agree with Wallach and Oryx.

Gotta be aggressive when deciding which way to go. Make the decision and go for it.

Would one move have made a difference against Windsor a few years ago? You gotta take the chance when its there (even if you overpay a bit) and know when its not there and sell accordingly.

That's right! Spott stated just that in a magazine article last spring. He said he was sorry for not improving at the deadline that year and had learned his lesson. But he really didn't learn anything because if he did, he would have done something at last year's deadline since there was no powerhouse Windsor type team to worry about, Rangers were ranked 8th in the country at the time, and they pretty much owned 1st ranked London to that point in the regular season.

One move may have made a difference against London last year - especially if that move was winning the bidding war for Watson.

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12-12-2012, 09:07 PM
  #996
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Originally Posted by ORYX View Post
People are often quick to call Spott a bad GM.

Looking at the deals he has made at the helm, the only ones he has 'lost' are ones where he gives a mid round pick for a player that doesnt matterialize, such as Czinder and Alberga.

Puempel for 2 2nds and Lorentz- BIG win
Landeskog for Tatar - BIG win
Palazzese for mid round picks - BIG win
Iafrate for a 3rd and mid rounder - Win
Matt Tipoff and Tobias Reider(import pick) for Aleadi and our Import pick - HUGE WIN

Where he loses is when he makes no deal at all. He is aprehensive about losing a trade it seems, and thus wont make it. Sometimes too worried that the price is one pick to many for his liking, but at the end of the day, that player would have brought more immediate value to the club then that pick would have, even if recovered at a later date.

Im the kind of fan that takes the good with the bad, given I am presented with an effort. If I see that he tried to make things happen, and it didnt work out, I'm not going to call for his job. Others might, I wont. I understand things go awry at times. What is inexcusable is when the team sits at the edge of the pool with its toes in the water, and wont decide between diving in, or going back inside.

We need Spott to decide whether this team is going for a dip, whether they sink or swim is irrelevent, or if they are going to pack up their things and go home. But lets be damned sure we dont sit pool side all day!
Every GM is going to win some trades over the years and its easy to point out the ones that we may have got the better deal on, but can you recall the Mavric Parks trade? Or the Taylor Carnevale trade?

Standing pat last year??? The overage moves this year???

It's just as easy to point out the flaws

I will agree though, that the simple answer is coach or GM but not both! Then if you fall on your face, we ship you out and move on! Its easier to replace one than both!

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12-13-2012, 07:59 AM
  #997
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I'll also note that Even Steven is 100% right. A lot of his "wins" as a GM came when he had the other GM over a barrel. ie. The kid was only going to report to Kitchener. So that almost precludes the Puempel and Landeskog deals as big wins.

Heck, even when a kid has said he'd only report to two teams, of which Kitchener was one (Austin Watson), Spott didn't get it done. So it's a very hard case to make with so many behind-the-scenes factors.

My final point about him as a GM is that for once I'd like to see him get a big win at the draft table (and not on a kid who said he's only play here). Other teams seem to routinely find gems in the 3rd or 4th round or deep in the 1st.

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12-13-2012, 02:20 PM
  #998
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Originally Posted by Tim Wallach View Post
I'll also note that Even Steven is 100% right. A lot of his "wins" as a GM came when he had the other GM over a barrel. ie. The kid was only going to report to Kitchener. So that almost precludes the Puempel and Landeskog deals as big wins.

Heck, even when a kid has said he'd only report to two teams, of which Kitchener was one (Austin Watson), Spott didn't get it done. So it's a very hard case to make with so many behind-the-scenes factors.

My final point about him as a GM is that for once I'd like to see him get a big win at the draft table (and not on a kid who said he's only play here). Other teams seem to routinely find gems in the 3rd or 4th round or deep in the 1st.
Finding gems in later rounds is mostly the function of the Scouting Staff, especially Murray Hiebert who's the big cheese of their Scouting Staff. And there was one gem they found recently in the 7th round in Justin Bailey if I'm not mistaken.

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12-13-2012, 03:03 PM
  #999
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Finding gems in later rounds is mostly the function of the Scouting Staff, especially Murray Hiebert who's the big cheese of their Scouting Staff. And there was one gem they found recently in the 7th round in Justin Bailey if I'm not mistaken.
True on scouting and true on Bailey. Although, from what I understand, there were a number of OHL cities he was not going to report to. So again, a shade tainted, perhaps.

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12-13-2012, 04:47 PM
  #1000
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I wouldn't call Bailey a gem yet. More hype than production.

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