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Old
12-12-2012, 01:37 PM
  #26
Bleach Clean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Again, another Vancouver fan extolling the virtues of Luongo, he is ELITE, he is an ALL-TIME great etc while at the same time salivating to replace him on their cup contending team with a 26 year old goalie who hasn't been a full time starter ever in his career.

These things add up


Who _wants_ to replace him? If goalies were of the mind set that they would willingly share the crease indefinitely, I'd keep Luongo without hesitation. I will repeat, I would not trade Luongo and run both goalies. So who's itching to get him out of town? Certainly not this Canucks fans.


No one here thought he would be moved until the playoffs, and even then people still thought Schneider would go.


Make no mistake, it's not nuck fans pushing him out the door, it's Leafs fans wanting to resolve their goaltending problems and the Canucks dealing a superfluous asset. _Want_ has nothing to do with it. If it did, I'd _want_ Bjugstad a hell of a lot more than most of the Leafs pieces being offered here.

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Old
12-12-2012, 01:38 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
You now, when referring to a team that had Johnny Bower and Jaques Plante at one time.....
yeah thats why i meant 20 years, not entire history

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12-12-2012, 01:44 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
The problem is, it's TO that will be taking the gamble.

It wasn't a problem for Gillis and Gilman to take the gamble. So I'm not sure why it is any different for TO?


If Burke and Co do think it's too great a risk, they are welcome to withdraw all offers and not pursue him at all. Fair?


Either Burke and Nonis are serious about getting Luongo, or they're not. Gillis won't view Luongo as an undue risk, so I'm not sure he's going to acquiesce to the trepidations of Burke when dealing with him.

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12-12-2012, 01:49 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by skywarp75 View Post
yeah thats why i meant 20 years, not entire history
Ok, i want you to be totally honest, would you do the deal from TO's side? In a deep draft like this, dealing our 1st would be a HUGE risk given the status of our team and a looming shortened season. We have alot of variables other than goaltending. Then you add the MULTIPLE plusses some are talking about and it becomes totally not doable.

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12-12-2012, 01:51 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
It wasn't a problem for Gillis and Gilman to take the gamble. So I'm not sure why it is any different for TO?

If Burke and Co do think it's too great a risk, they are welcome to withdraw all offers and not pursue him at all. Fair?


Either Burke and Nonis are serious about getting Luongo, or they're not. Gillis won't view Luongo as an undue risk, so I'm not sure he's going to acquiesce to the trepidations of Burke when dealing with him.
26 years old/33 years old. No long term contract/long term contract. Much bigger gamble now.

You do realise that even for a 26 year old Luongo....you didn't trade a 1st? In fact, you sent no picks. So how is it now that it's said "no matter what, a 1st must be involved"?

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12-12-2012, 01:58 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
26 years old/33 years old. No long term contract/long term contract. Much bigger gamble now.

You do realise that even for a 26 year old Luongo....you didn't trade a 1st? In fact, you sent no picks. So how is it now that it's said "no matter what, a 1st must be involved"?


Go look up lists for some of the most lopsided trades in NHL history, I've seen that Luongo deal on one or two. Such poor reasoning LL.


A 35 year old Kaberle returned a 1st and a prospect. Luongo doesn't deserve as much? Give your head a shake.


Oh, and G&G signed Lu to such a deal knowing full well they were prepared to roll with him in the latter years of his career. It makes no difference what his age is now vs back then to this club's management team. Again, they signed him knowing full well the risks. If Burke thinks it's too much, he can walk. But I think he's got more common sense than that, believe it or not.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 12-12-2012 at 02:03 PM.
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Old
12-12-2012, 02:06 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Go look up lists for some of the most lopsided trades in NHL history, I've seen that Luongo deal on one or two. Such poor reasoning LL.
Are you saying FLA won that deal? If Bertuzzi hadn't had the Moore incident i would absolutely agree, but it was clear after that he had to move on.

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12-12-2012, 02:08 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Go look up lists for some of the most lopsided trades in NHL history, I've seen that Luongo deal on one or two. Such poor reasoning LL.


A 35 year old Kaberle returned a 1st and a prospect. Luongo doesn't deserve as much? Give your head a shake.


Oh, and G&G signed Lu to such a deal knowing full well they were prepared to roll with him in the latter years of his career. It makes no difference what his age is now vs back then to this club's management team. Again, they signed him knowing full well the risks. If Burke thinks it's too much, he can walk. But I think he's got more common sense than that, believe it or not.
LOL....so you think the eventual Stanley Cup champions 1st is equal to ours?? There is a MASSIVE difference. Also, if you were only asking for the 1st and a B prospect i might be inclined....but you are not.

To the 2nd bolded, Burke will absolutely make the deal if he thinks it works, he won't pay a massive price.

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12-12-2012, 02:08 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Are you saying FLA won that deal? If Bertuzzi hadn't had the Moore incident i would absolutely agree, but it was clear after that he had to move on.

Ummm no, the opposite. Nonis took Keenan to the cleaners. MK should have insisted a 1st rounder come back with Bertuzzi.

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12-12-2012, 02:13 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Ummm no, the opposite. Nonis took Keenan to the cleaners. MK should have insisted a 1st rounder come back with Bertuzzi.
Exactly, but i'll tell you this, if the season was a full one, i think you could have gotten our 1st, not now. If Gillis insists on it, it probably kills the deal. I highly doubt Burke wants another Kessel crapstorm....and in that one he got a 21 year old and still got bashed.

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12-12-2012, 02:17 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
LOL....so you think the eventual Stanley Cup champions 1st is equal to ours?? There is a MASSIVE difference. Also, if you were only asking for the 1st and a B prospect i might be inclined....but you are not.

To the 2nd bolded, Burke will absolutely make the deal if he thinks it works, he won't pay a massive price.


Massive price = Subjective.


And no one knew BOS would be eventual SC champs at the time the 1st was dealt for an aging, soft 35 year Kaberle.


Further, if the 1st is protected, I'm not sure what cause you are taking up here LL. It's likely to be a mid-1st. These things seem like gold to TO because of the Kessel deal + being a lottery team last year, but they are currency to teams like VAN that can deal them at the deadline for help they need.

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12-12-2012, 02:20 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Ok, i want you to be totally honest, would you do the deal from TO's side? In a deep draft like this, dealing our 1st would be a HUGE risk given the status of our team and a looming shortened season. We have alot of variables other than goaltending. Then you add the MULTIPLE plusses some are talking about and it becomes totally not doable.
Kulemin/Grabovski

I think has to be part of this deal. Kulemin will be preferrable because he is still on a cheap contract, and I think his value is lower because of his off season last year. I expect him to have a rebound year regardless. You dont have a 30g year and then drop to 7 and stay that way. He may not ever score 30 again, but 20-25 for sure. Grabo could slot into the center slot if and when Kesler gets injured. both players are defensively sound and Kulemin is even a bit physical. Match made in heaven for our second line. I'd also be willing to talk MacArthur if he has been signed to a good contract.

Kadri/Biggs

Both good prospects, qnd both have good offensive upside to help Vancouver once its superstars inevitably retire. Either or could probably centre the third or fourth line this season or be flipped to another team.

2014 1st

I get what your saying about this years first rd draft pick. In the case that there is no season, Toronto still has three balls in the lottery and could end up with the first overall pick. That was one of the biggest reason why I am so against trading this years draft picks regardless and why NJ was so retarded in not giving their's up last draft. ****ing idiots. Most of us agree that the first must be involved because it ups the overall value of your trade package.

2013 2nd

Because your first in 2014 is nowhere near as valuable as your first this year.


This is the package if your dealing us Grabovski, who is more consistent and a bette player then Kulemin. If your dealing Kulemin, you throw Finn in there as well. If you want to keep your second and Finn, we'll exchange that for your 2013 first or your '14 1st and your '15 1st.

for

Luongo

No explanation needed

and

Raymond

He had an off year, just like Kulemin, but I expect him to rebound to 20g, and he's still an RFA(i think). He would slot into your second line with Grabo and MacArthur and provide an incredibly fast line. He's also pretty good defensively.

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Old
12-12-2012, 02:21 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Massive price = Subjective.


And no one knew BOS would be eventual SC champs at the time the 1st was dealt for an aging, soft 35 year Kaberle.


Further, if the 1st is protected, I'm not sure what cause you are taking up here LL. It's likely to be a mid-1st. These things seem like gold to TO because of the Kessel deal + being a lottery team last year, but they are currency to teams like VAN that can deal them at the deadline for help they need.
I highly doubt Gillis excepts a protected, and again, the question now becomes, do you deal your young guys/picks for a mad dash to the playoffs, or do you keep your assets and run with what you have and let the chips fall where they may.

The only reason i have changed my tune is because i'm not confident that Luongo makes us that much better in 48 games.

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Old
12-12-2012, 02:21 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Exactly, but i'll tell you this, if the season was a full one, i think you could have gotten our 1st, not now. If Gillis insists on it, it probably kills the deal. I highly doubt Burke wants another Kessel crapstorm....and in that one he got a 21 year old and still got bashed.

But if it's protected, how can it be a "Kessel crapstorm"?


If the exclusion of a protected 1st kills this deal from Burke's end, he deserves his walking papers at the end of the year. I cannot fathom him passing that up, while keeping the majority of his NHL roster intact for the purposes of competing now. It would be a massive blunder on his part IMO. The ghost of the Kessel trade be damned.

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12-12-2012, 02:22 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
But if it's protected, how can it be a "Kessel crapstorm"?


If the exclusion of a protected 1st kills this deal from Burke's end, he deserves his walking papers at the end of the year. I cannot fathom him passing that up, while keeping the majority of his NHL roster intact for the purposes of competing now. It would be a massive blunder on his part IMO. The ghost of the Kessel trade be damned.
Ok, make it a 2014 pick.

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12-12-2012, 02:22 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Exactly, but i'll tell you this, if the season was a full one, i think you could have gotten our 1st, not now. If Gillis insists on it, it probably kills the deal. I highly doubt Burke wants another Kessel crapstorm....and in that one he got a 21 year old and still got bashed.
Burke got bashed because he traded essential futures away for a winger. Thats just stupid. Centre...maybe. And it was to a division rival in Boston, which set them up for the future.
It was a terrible trade to make.

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12-12-2012, 02:24 PM
  #42
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Burke got bashed because he traded essential futures away for a winger. Thats just stupid. Centre...maybe. And it was to a division rival in Boston, which set them up for the future.
It was a terrible trade to make.
So, i guy with 4 straight 30 goal seasons and coming off a PPG year is crap....but we should deal the farm for a 33 year old goalie?? You know the 1st overall pick last season was a smallish winger...right?

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12-12-2012, 02:24 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I highly doubt Gillis excepts a protected, and again, the question now becomes, do you deal your young guys/picks for a mad dash to the playoffs, or do you keep your assets and run with what you have and let the chips fall where they may.

The only reason i have changed my tune is because i'm not confident that Luongo makes us that much better in 48 games.
Oh absolutely he was. In the first 48 games Toronto was dominant, after that their goaltending fell apart. In a 48 game schedule...having your goaltending question fixed, it not only gets you into the playoffs...it could get you past the first rd.

Provided you play the sens...

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Old
12-12-2012, 02:26 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I highly doubt Gillis excepts a protected, and again, the question now becomes, do you deal your young guys/picks for a mad dash to the playoffs, or do you keep your assets and run with what you have and let the chips fall where they may.

The only reason i have changed my tune is because i'm not confident that Luongo makes us that much better in 48 games.


Yes, you have changed your tune... But fair enough, then Burke should not pursue Luongo. Period.


We both know he's going to have give to get. I'm speculating that pick to be a 1st because I cannot fathom Gillis dealing a world class goalie like Luongo for merely Bozak + Kadri alone. A 2nd doesn't carry near enough value to balance it.


Maybe the other side of this is that Gillis runs with both goalies due to a shortened season. That could also be more possible now than before. The consistency in net in _every_ game would provide a huge advantage to the team. I'm wondering if it isn't worth the stretch to just run with an incredible tandem and then deal him at the end of the year.

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12-12-2012, 02:26 PM
  #45
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At this point I visit the Luongo threads not to see if there is anything new being discussed but merely to see what part of the circular argument is being visited at present.

There really is a great opportunity for someone to create a detailed info graphic of the whole thing

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12-12-2012, 02:30 PM
  #46
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Oh absolutely he was. In the first 48 games Toronto was dominant, after that their goaltending fell apart. In a 48 game schedule...having your goaltending question fixed, it not only gets you into the playoffs...it could get you past the first rd.

Provided you play the sens...
My good man, our whole team collapsed. If we go on an 8 game losing streak in a 48 game season, we're done. That's the problem. All of you have stated that Luongo's 1st month is typically bad, and then he rounds into form. In an 82 game season, that's something that can be overcome....in 48, not so much.

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12-12-2012, 02:31 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Ok, make it a 2014 pick.

I don't understand, if the pick is going to be no better that 11th, why the hesitation still?

If TO gets within the top10, the pick defaults to 2014 anyways, but a 2nd this year would have to be thrown in to compensate.

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12-12-2012, 02:31 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Yes, you have changed your tune... But fair enough, then Burke should not pursue Luongo. Period.

We both know he's going to have give to get. I'm speculating that pick to be a 1st because I cannot fathom Gillis dealing a world class goalie like Luongo for merely Bozak + Kadri alone. A 2nd doesn't carry near enough value to balance it.


Maybe the other side of this is that Gillis runs with both goalies due to a shortened season. That could also be more possible now than before. The consistency in net in _every_ game would provide a huge advantage to the team. I'm wondering if it isn't worth the stretch to just run with an incredible tandem and then deal him at the end of the year.
If the cost is our 1st++(+), i agree. Way to risky now.

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12-12-2012, 02:33 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Ok, i want you to be totally honest, would you do the deal from TO's side? In a deep draft like this, dealing our 1st would be a HUGE risk given the status of our team and a looming shortened season. We have alot of variables other than goaltending. Then you add the MULTIPLE plusses some are talking about and it becomes totally not doable.
I wouldn't deal this years 1st if I were Toronto (unless burke got to pick between 2013/2014)

- I think we all know Kadri is a very likely target to move.
- I think Frattin could be a guy moved (still have Biggs/Ashton who are close)
- I think Finn is a very realistic target, being stuck behind Gardiner/Rielly (and Blacker/Percy being in the mix)

Its clear we won't get any "untouchables" or 1-1 pieces.

But there are quite a few of these "secondary" "more expendable" pieces that could be moved.

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12-12-2012, 02:34 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
So, i guy with 4 straight 30 goal seasons and coming off a PPG year is crap....but we should deal the farm for a 33 year old goalie?? You know the 1st overall pick last season was a smallish winger...right?
Yea I do. Kessel is not a crap player, but it was a dumb trade to make for a winger and for a team that needed to rebuild not retool. Toronto fans have said as much themselves.

Had you kept those picks you could have had Seguin, Hamilton and knight. Your team already looks more impressive. Your D is slot more solid in future years and you have that centre that you need. Centre is more important that wing.

Wingers can be picked up at FA or trade deadlines or w/e and they are much easier to draft. The Centre makes almost all the players on the ice better if he is a true difference maker, like Seguin is.

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