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Wasting talent in CHL, evidence

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Old
11-18-2012, 03:37 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
Which is why creating a transfer agreement would greatly benefit both sides. They are doing more damage then good by not coming to terms, many top prospects are leaving. They need to see the big picture and what is more important here.
You're just not informed.

Russia disagreed to sign the trasnfer agreement because the European teams got next to nothing for raising top WORLD talent. Millions of $$ are spent on raising Malkins and Ovechkins, and all that NHL would transfer is some lousy $150,000-$200,000 to the club for a 1st round pick?? MAYBE? (they wouldn't even do it all the time!). While these Superstars would go off to NA and make the NHL Hundreds of millions of dollars! Wait a minute, that's not fair!

It's been stated many times that the FHR made offers where they would get paid significantly more for top round picks, yet NHL refused. So here we are, KHL is developing and NHL talent from Eastern European countries is decreasing.

You're also not informed and dead wrong if you think that nothing is done in Russia about making it more attractive for players to stay. Not to mention that it is working already.

Why should the KHL players be valued less than NHL? Why should KHL/VHL/MHL system be a feeder league to NHL (In principal)? Why can't it be better?(again in principal) Those are all valid questions.


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11-18-2012, 05:19 PM
  #27
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Doesn't a stipulation exist whereby NHL teams don't have to offer a contract as soon to NCAA players as is required for major junior players?

I recall reading how some NHL teams definitely saw this as a positive feature for drafting college players.

Maybe this contributes to the numbers you quote here.

"A player not signed by his NHL team within two years of being drafted can re-enter the draft, as long as he is 20 years old or younger at the time of the subsequent draft. Players over 20 become unrestricted free agents.

NCAA players are an exception: NHL teams retain the rights to a college player until 30 days after the player has left college."
Well. That might be in some cases the reason but more often I think teams prefer players who are ready for NHL regarding their physics and personality (which is more likely the case for a 24 year old guy with a university degree than for a 19 year old CHL player.

I have no numbers for it but I have the impression NCAA players are added faster to NHL rosters than CHL players after playing in the Minor Leagues. That would proof my theory right.

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11-18-2012, 05:21 PM
  #28
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http://www.iihf.com/fileadmin/user_u...IIHF_Study.pdf

little bit out of the date, but good read.
Interesting study. The first pages show more or less what I am telling ya'll all the time.

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11-18-2012, 05:30 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Why should the KHL players be valued less than NHL? Why should KHL/VHL/MHL system be a feeder league to NHL (In principal)? Why can't it be better?(again in principal) Those are all valid questions.
Well. KHL is seen more positive every year in the rest of Europe already. You cannot expect Americans or Canadians to say they think KHL is like the European NHL because the NHL is sooooooooooo much better than any other league from most North Americans POV.

I am quite activly looking around what efforts are there being made to get ice hockey a better position in the sports world and whenever a Canadian or American comes by there is nothing but arrogance towards other people's work like "Japanese on skates? Is this a comedy movie?" despite Japan having been a regular Olympics and WCs participant for decades.

Off course not all North Americans are like this but you often find comments where you see that the people cannot even imagine that you can live in Russia or any other place in Europe and have a good life. This is really frustrating at times. Last thing I read was "as if any Canadian or American would dream of playing in Russia". Says it all...

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11-19-2012, 08:01 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
You're just not informed.

Russia disagreed to sign the trasnfer agreement because the European teams got next to nothing for raising top WORLD talent. Millions of $$ are spent on raising Malkins and Ovechkins, and all that NHL would transfer is some lousy $150,000-$200,000 to the club for a 1st round pick?? MAYBE? (they wouldn't even do it all the time!). While these Superstars would go off to NA and make the NHL Hundreds of millions of dollars! Wait a minute, that's not fair!
One of the biggest problems that I have with NHL. There should be clear "price list".

Player A plays 100 NHL games. His home club gets X amount of dollars.
Player A plays 1000 games or whatever. X amount of dollars.
Player A wins some award. X amount of dollars for that.

Fair and square. Not this BS system that is in place today.

Some of these players pretty much saved the entire franchises. Look how Washington have benefited from Ovechkin. What Dynamo got in return? Pretty much nothing. Malkin goes and wins Hart, Art Ross, Conn Smyth. Magnitka gets nothing. And it's not like clubs can't afford to pay a few millions.

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11-19-2012, 03:09 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
You're just not informed.

Russia disagreed to sign the trasnfer agreement because the European teams got next to nothing for raising top WORLD talent. Millions of $$ are spent on raising Malkins and Ovechkins, and all that NHL would transfer is some lousy $150,000-$200,000 to the club for a 1st round pick?? MAYBE? (they wouldn't even do it all the time!). While these Superstars would go off to NA and make the NHL Hundreds of millions of dollars! Wait a minute, that's not fair!

It's been stated many times that the FHR made offers where they would get paid significantly more for top round picks, yet NHL refused. So here we are, KHL is developing and NHL talent from Eastern European countries is decreasing.

You're also not informed and dead wrong if you think that nothing is done in Russia about making it more attractive for players to stay. Not to mention that it is working already.

Why should the KHL players be valued less than NHL? Why should KHL/VHL/MHL system be a feeder league to NHL (In principal)? Why can't it be better?(again in principal) Those are all valid questions.
I can understand this frustration and I do believe more needs to be given to the clubs who develop these players, should be based on games played and success in the NHL. I do however detect some bitterness from you that the NHL is the top league and and not the KHL. Not to disrespect but I don't believe the KHL can overthrow the NHL in terms of being the prime destination to play anytime soon. Many people from all over the world see America as the place of opportunity and a way to escape the troubles in their countries. Despite some areas it is generally seen in a positive light. I simply don't know if I can say the same about Russia.

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11-19-2012, 05:17 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
I can understand this frustration and I do believe more needs to be given to the clubs who develop these players, should be based on games played and success in the NHL. I do however detect some bitterness from you that the NHL is the top league and and not the KHL. Not to disrespect but I don't believe the KHL can overthrow the NHL in terms of being the prime destination to play anytime soon. Many people from all over the world see America as the place of opportunity and a way to escape the troubles in their countries. Despite some areas it is generally seen in a positive light. I simply don't know if I can say the same about Russia.
Well. In the end its not the lifestyle in North America that lets all the Euro guys try their luck in the NHL but the millions of dollars even paid to average players. As Ilya Kovalchuk and others said. They feel very well living in Russia and playing in the KHL.

And the image of America has suffered a lot over the last decade. The USA are in some aspects like a 3rd world country, crime is very high compared to Europe etc. !

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11-19-2012, 05:27 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
Well. In the end its not the lifestyle in North America that lets all the Euro guys try their luck in the NHL but the millions of dollars even paid to average players. As Ilya Kovalchuk and others said. They feel very well living in Russia and playing in the KHL.

And the image of America has suffered a lot over the last decade. The USA are in some aspects like a 3rd world country, crime is very high compared to Europe etc. !
this and will be interesting what happens in next 10-20 years in Asia/China/Russia

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11-19-2012, 08:00 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
I can understand this frustration and I do believe more needs to be given to the clubs who develop these players, should be based on games played and success in the NHL. I do however detect some bitterness from you that the NHL is the top league and and not the KHL. Not to disrespect but I don't believe the KHL can overthrow the NHL in terms of being the prime destination to play anytime soon. Many people from all over the world see America as the place of opportunity and a way to escape the troubles in their countries. Despite some areas it is generally seen in a positive light. I simply don't know if I can say the same about Russia.
Which is why I was talking in Principle. In practice, it will be a while before KHL can be as desirable as NHL.

But it's not as far and unrealistic as you might think. As with soccer, the Russian Premier league is a much more prestigious and desirable league to play compared to the Major League Soccer. So it's not unrealistic for KHL and Europe, in general, to become a giant in Hockey with time.

Canada is what is really holding the Hockey in Canada at such a high level, but Canada is a rather small country of 30+ mil people and has limitied resources for expansion. Hockey is only the 4th major sport in US after Football, Basketball and Baseball which is limiting potential for NHL.

Russia (where hockey is establishing as the #1 sport) and certain parts of Europe have a huge market potential going forward. That is where the optimism comes from.

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11-19-2012, 09:09 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
...Russia (where hockey is establishing as the #1 sport) and certain parts of Europe have a huge market potential going forward. That is where the optimism comes from.

In Russia, how far back is soccer in terms of popularity; compared to hockey?


Last edited by checkerdome: 11-20-2012 at 09:23 AM.
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11-19-2012, 09:13 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
One of the biggest problems that I have with NHL. There should be clear "price list".

Player A plays 100 NHL games. His home club gets X amount of dollars.
Player A plays 1000 games or whatever. X amount of dollars.
Player A wins some award. X amount of dollars for that.

Fair and square. Not this BS system that is in place today.

Some of these players pretty much saved the entire franchises. Look how Washington have benefited from Ovechkin. What Dynamo got in return? Pretty much nothing. Malkin goes and wins Hart, Art Ross, Conn Smyth. Magnitka gets nothing. And it's not like clubs can't afford to pay a few millions.
Well, but then to make it fair, the NHL clubs would have to pay millions to the local Canadian and US clubs that grew those players, as well, and that would just make it very unfeasible. The KHL, too, should by that logic pay Swedish, Finnish or any other countries' clubs that grew players that have now played a significant amount of games in Russia. I mean, I get the point of the NHL "stealing" players from across the world, but unless they're actually making players break contracts I don't see why they should be held financially responsible. It's a free world, and any player should be able to choose his own path. I'm a huge Russia supporter in all things hockey, and also hate how the KHL is viewed in North America, but even with this bias, I can't see anything wrong with NHL clubs offering contracts to players from abroad without compensation to their clubs. If the player does not have a contract, he's free to go, and if he does and he breaks it to go play in the NHL, he should be held responsible, and not the NHL club he's going to play for.

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Old
11-20-2012, 02:57 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Russia (where hockey is establishing as the #1 sport) and certain parts of Europe have a huge market potential going forward. That is where the optimism comes from.
Come on. I am a huge hockey supporter but that is never ever happening. Russian oligarchs are throwing so much money into football. The Russian football teams are doing a good job in European competitions etc. ! If you would ask 100 people in Russia maybe 70-80 would say football is number one and then comes hockey. And if hockey would become the number 2 sport in every country of the world behind football that would be already world class !!

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11-20-2012, 03:00 AM
  #38
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Well, but then to make it fair, the NHL clubs would have to pay millions to the local Canadian and US clubs that grew those players, as well, and that would just make it very unfeasible. The KHL, too, should by that logic pay Swedish, Finnish or any other countries' clubs that grew players that have now played a significant amount of games in Russia.
Yes. Contracts should be respected at every time. What the player choses then is another thing. I mean I could also be angry because big clubs in Germany are stealing the best players of my fav team because they have more money but thats how the world is.

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11-20-2012, 04:03 AM
  #39
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Well, but then to make it fair, the NHL clubs would have to pay millions to the local Canadian and US clubs that grew those players, as well, and that would just make it very unfeasible. The KHL, too, should by that logic pay Swedish, Finnish or any other countries' clubs that grew players that have now played a significant amount of games in Russia. I mean, I get the point of the NHL "stealing" players from across the world, but unless they're actually making players break contracts I don't see why they should be held financially responsible. It's a free world, and any player should be able to choose his own path. I'm a huge Russia supporter in all things hockey, and also hate how the KHL is viewed in North America, but even with this bias, I can't see anything wrong with NHL clubs offering contracts to players from abroad without compensation to their clubs. If the player does not have a contract, he's free to go, and if he does and he breaks it to go play in the NHL, he should be held responsible, and not the NHL club he's going to play for.
Maybe I could agree in PRINCIPLE. Your words are IDEALISM (with all respect to you), not REALITY.

I dont care if NHL clubs pay to canadian/US youth team. That is problem of Hockey Canada and US Hockey, because NHL is played in NA. Another story is Europe, which has been loosing talent and giving nothing for it. There is transfer agreement IIHF-NHL is which one-sided (good for NHL, bad for Europe). European hockey leagues are weak diplomatically (compare to NHL), so they are happy to get this 200 000 USD than nothing. But euro stars have more value (see Malkin, Karlsson etc). KHL is stronger, wants to fair deal with NHL .. so why not?

KHL clubs pay russian local clubs for talent. KHL clubs pay money to euro clubs if a guy is under contract. NHL has created a system where euro players are forced not to sign extension with euro club (to be free for NHL and nowadays for KHL as well). So thanks NHL.

Yes, it is free world but euro clubs should be compensated for raising talent. Even if player is without contract. A player is free but look how he became free? Forced, fraud on euro club. Look, if Prokhorkin was Slovak and leaving slovak club, NHL would DO NOTHING about his contract with LA, contract would be valid. Why? Because NHL does not respect contracts of euro clubs (only KHL´s). That is reality .. yes, players are free when sign with NHL club, but look how they do to be free ...

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11-20-2012, 07:17 AM
  #40
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Well, but then to make it fair, the NHL clubs would have to pay millions to the local Canadian and US clubs that grew those players, as well, and that would just make it very unfeasible. The KHL, too, should by that logic pay Swedish, Finnish or any other countries' clubs that grew players that have now played a significant amount of games in Russia.
Such system should be in place for young players only. Those Canadians, Swedes, Czechs and Finns who play in the KHL are in most cases established players, not youngsters.

As for NHL clubs paying for Canadian and US players. They have a different system. It's their own problem. European professional clubs develop their players in their own hockey schools. They spend considerable resource to grow talent for their professional team and NHL clubs take the better ones pretty much for free.

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11-20-2012, 08:07 AM
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Such system should be in place for young players only. Those Canadians, Swedes, Czechs and Finns who play in the KHL are in most cases established players, not youngsters.
dont agree, if I understand you. I agree that NHL clubs should not pay for players like "Komarov or Cervenka cases" (if are free agents in KHL). Both are 25y or so, left KHL this summer as free agents in KHL. Their choice, ok.

Another story are youngsters like Tarasenko, Dima Orlov, Bobrovsky, Kucherov or Kuznetsov cases. All left (not Kuznya) at the age of 19 or 20. NHL club should pay for them.

3rd group are guys who left for CHL at the age 17. They are drafted by KHL club but dont sign contract, choose CHL instead. NHL club, if drafted them, should pay to KHL (MHL) club. And of course to CHL if NHL wants. I dont care, it is US-CAN problem.

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11-20-2012, 09:08 AM
  #42
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dont agree, if I understand you. I agree that NHL clubs should not pay for players like "Komarov or Cervenka cases" (if are free agents in KHL). Both are 25y or so, left KHL this summer as free agents in KHL. Their choice, ok.

Another story are youngsters like Tarasenko, Dima Orlov, Bobrovsky, Kucherov or Kuznetsov cases. All left (not Kuznya) at the age of 19 or 20. NHL club should pay for them.

3rd group are guys who left for CHL at the age 17. They are drafted by KHL club but dont sign contract, choose CHL instead. NHL club, if drafted them, should pay to KHL (MHL) club. And of course to CHL if NHL wants. I dont care, it is US-CAN problem.
I agree. I should have been more precise. Young players, not youngsters. Lets say younger than 25.

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11-22-2012, 12:18 PM
  #43
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http://www.sports.ru/hockey/14490530...medium=twitter

interview of Dyblenko in Russian where he mentions Delnov's reality check in NA

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11-22-2012, 12:22 PM
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http://www.sports.ru/hockey/14490530...medium=twitter

interview of Dyblenko in Russian where he mentions Delnov's reality check in NA
now tell me, why he chose CHL??

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11-23-2012, 12:22 PM
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other big talents come to mind: Grachev, Valenentko, Voloshenko.

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12-12-2012, 11:27 AM
  #46
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Another story are youngsters like Tarasenko, Dima Orlov, Bobrovsky, Kucherov or Kuznetsov cases. All left (not Kuznya) at the age of 19 or 20. NHL club should pay for them.
How much, the NHL isn't run by oligarchs with more money then sense, there isn't top premier league and la liga money lying around, what money do you want to see?

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12-12-2012, 12:15 PM
  #47
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How much, the NHL isn't run by oligarchs with more money then sense, there isn't top premier league and la liga money lying around, what money do you want to see?
In principal: market value money. Now of course there is no market because the NHL is preventing it (via the Draft/RFA system). That's the problem Europe has to deal with. I guess Europeans have to hope for a decertification of the NHLPA and for an end of the CBAs = end of the Draft/RFA system.

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12-12-2012, 12:51 PM
  #48
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Another story are youngsters like Tarasenko, Dima Orlov, Bobrovsky, Kucherov or Kuznetsov cases. All left (not Kuznya) at the age of 19 or 20. NHL club should pay for them.
Why? They are free agents, why would NHL have to pay for them? Should the KHL teams pay for every RFA who's coming to play from the NHL? For all the Zuccarellos, Engqvists, Shirokovs and so on?

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12-12-2012, 01:06 PM
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There is different among 18 old prospect and 25 old players

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12-12-2012, 01:42 PM
  #50
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There is different among 18 old prospect and 25 old players
Sure, when signing a 25 year old you know what you are getting. Other than that, why should Blues pay for Tarasenko and Magnitka doesn't have to pay for Zuccarello?

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