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Wasting talent in CHL, evidence

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Old
12-12-2012, 02:59 PM
  #51
cska78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundAndFury View Post
Sure, when signing a 25 year old you know what you are getting. Other than that, why should Blues pay for Tarasenko and Magnitka doesn't have to pay for Zuccarello?
Zucharello hasn't been developed in NY, while Tarasenko was developed in Novosoibirsk. Zucharello is a nobody, Tarasenko is a world-class player (if not yet, to be for sure)

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12-12-2012, 03:17 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
Zucharello hasn't been developed in NY, while Tarasenko was developed in Novosoibirsk. Zucharello is a nobody, Tarasenko is a world-class player (if not yet, to be for sure)
Tarasenko was developed in Novosibirsk but his rights belong to SKA. So who exactly gets the money if NHL would pay for him? Meanwhile, Rangers developed Zuccarello A LOT emphasizing his two-way game and ability to stay on the puck and play along the boards.

By the way, Mr. Nobody has awards for most points and being an MVP in Elitserien, Norwegian player of the year award and has scored 0,5 PPG playing very limited minutes in the NHL. I would suggest you check the dictionary before using the word "nobody" next time.

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Old
12-12-2012, 03:58 PM
  #53
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I agree
Americans think NCAA is a better route. Euro's think staying home is better.
Let's just make the CHL only for Canadians.............no prob

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12-12-2012, 06:28 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
I agree
Americans think NCAA is a better route. Euro's think staying home is better.
Let's just make the CHL only for Canadians.............no prob
Meh I'm ok with developing some talents from say like Switzerland, Germany, Latvia, Denmark since they usually develop decently over here but yeah the Russians do better at home. I don't mind if they stay so long as they do end up coming over, but not at like 30 years old. Come at 20-23 or in the rare player thats ready 19. But 17 year olds have too much of a culture shock I agree.

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Old
12-12-2012, 07:42 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundAndFury View Post
Tarasenko was developed in Novosibirsk but his rights belong to SKA. So who exactly gets the money if NHL would pay for him? Meanwhile, Rangers developed Zuccarello A LOT emphasizing his two-way game and ability to stay on the puck and play along the boards.

By the way, Mr. Nobody has awards for most points and being an MVP in Elitserien, Norwegian player of the year award and has scored 0,5 PPG playing very limited minutes in the NHL. I would suggest you check the dictionary before using the word "nobody" next time.

mmm..sorry...still a nobody...

as far as Tarasenko goes, Sibir' has sold the rights to SKA; therefore, pay ska! if he's a free-agent - don't pay jack.

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Old
12-12-2012, 08:15 PM
  #56
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My take on all this is that if Russia wants to keep their own players, they should then look at the NPB-MLB agreement in baseball. Japanese players have to decide whether they want to enter the NPB draft or go to the US (there may be the first to opt to go to the US this year). If they stay in Japan, NPB players cannot become free agents until around 30. Essentially, the Japanese team sells the rights of negotiation to the highest bidding MLB (posting fee is what they call it). At this point, the player's MLB rights belong to the team who won the right of negotiation. I don't remember any player being posted and not signing in MLB. A few times their rights had to be traded from the winning team to another team. (I want to say Hideki Irabu was "won" by San Diego and then had to be traded to the Yankees as he refused to be a Padre.)

So essentially, what Russia needs to do is make the KHL draft all-inclusive. Meaning the "academies" that are currently run disappear at MHL age (or perhaps at 17 years old). All players are then put into a Russia-wide draft. If a player wants to go to the NHL, he would not enter the KHL draft. However, he would be locked out of the MHL too. Thus, he needs to go to the CHL and enter their Import Draft. If he decides to stay in the KHL, that is fine, but he is locked into a contract until he is 30 (or the KHL team offers him up for a posting fee or decides to release him).

I doubt the KHL would get the kind of money the NPB gets from MLB teams. Yu Darvish's posting fee saw his Japanese club receive in upwards of $51,000,000 from the Texas Rangers. But it would be a system that would appease the Russians. The only small drawback would be that the players who go to the CHL would now be free. I believe the CHL teams do pay their European clubs some money to bring them over. Once they are in the CHL, no fees are paid if they are traded etc.

The only drawback to the system is that the NHL is unlikely to stop drafting Russians. Thus, the KHL teams would only have one team to negotiate a posting fee with (as I'd assume KHL players' rights would be retained until 30 by NHL clubs). The flipside of this could see it backfire on the KHL. The NHL may decide to stop drafting Russians and thus no fees would be paid to the KHL. It would lead to teams being stuck with players until they are 30.

What I disagree with is any sort of fees paid to a club once the player is in the NHL. Once a player is in the NHL he is a NHL player period. If he plays a 1,000 games or 1 game is inconsequential because he is now a NHLer. He is no longer a member of Dynamo Moscow, much like a CHL grad is no longer a member of the Saskatoon Blades.

However, if the KHL wants to consider itself the alternative to the NHL, they have to realize this remunerations are a two-way street. Any CHL/NCAA grads (regardless of national origin) who play in the KHL directly from those leagues must have fees paid by the KHL club to their amateur team. The Saskatoon Blades (and to a lesser extent the defunct Lewiston MAINEiacs) have developed Andrey Makarov. If he does not latch on with the Buffalo Sabres, the KHL team that picks him up owes Jack Brodsky and the Blades similar fees that a KHL team would expect of a NHL club. It is only fair.

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Old
12-14-2012, 05:16 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
I agree
Americans think NCAA is a better route. Euro's think staying home is better.
Let's just make the CHL only for Canadians.............no prob
Agreed!!!!! No Russian should NEVER AGAIN set his foot in the CHL. Let the Canadians have it. Too many ruined prospects.

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:17 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Agreed!!!!! No Russian should NEVER AGAIN set his foot in the CHL. Let the Canadians have it. Too many ruined prospects.
cosigned,


Sincerely.

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Old
12-14-2012, 10:32 AM
  #59
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http://www.championat.com/hockey/new...hk-rjazan.html
just saw this article, even though, it's not just the CHL but their father as well at fault.

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Old
12-14-2012, 11:45 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
Such system should be in place for young players only. Those Canadians, Swedes, Czechs and Finns who play in the KHL are in most cases established players, not youngsters.

As for NHL clubs paying for Canadian and US players. They have a different system. It's their own problem. European professional clubs develop their players in their own hockey schools. They spend considerable resource to grow talent for their professional team and NHL clubs take the better ones pretty much for free.
Actually no. In Finland the juniors clubs are not run by the Sm-Liiga clubs, they are separated entities. The primary interest is in selecting junior coaches and I'm not even sure how low/young that goes. Players aren't paid in salary unless they have a contract with the SM-Liiga team (though on some levels they some compensation). So to say clubs are spending millions to raise player couldn't be further from the truth at least here in Finland. When it's comes to the transfer fees, I've said it several times before, the fee is the same for every player (e.g. SaiPa were laughing all the way to the bank when Philly signed Jussi Timonen), as long as players want to play in the NHL, there's absolutely nothing the clubs and federations can do to get higher transfer fees. Finnish and Swedish clubs came to their senses and signed separate agreements when the tallied how much they lost on transfer fees when there was none.

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:18 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
http://www.championat.com/hockey/new...hk-rjazan.html
just saw this article, even though, it's not just the CHL but their father as well at fault.
where did they start this season?

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Old
12-14-2012, 01:28 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
where did they start this season?
idk...probably DNP

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Old
12-16-2012, 01:57 PM
  #63
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Just wondering if you guys would feel any different if the prospects were coming over to play in NCAA div 1 rather than the CHL? It is different hockey than in the CHL different systems. More practises and off-ice work and less games, also it is a bit less physical as there is no fighting allowed.

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Old
12-17-2012, 08:40 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
Just wondering if you guys would feel any different if the prospects were coming over to play in NCAA div 1 rather than the CHL? It is different hockey than in the CHL different systems. More practises and off-ice work and less games, also it is a bit less physical as there is no fighting allowed.
oh boy, very negative... I went to see NCAA game NU-BC, the quality of hockey is atrocious. Also spoke to an NCAA agent at Haverhill for the Boston hockey nights tournament this summer, they were amazed by the quality of Omsk players. HUGE NO!

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12-17-2012, 11:12 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
oh boy, very negative... I went to see NCAA game NU-BC, the quality of hockey is atrocious. Also spoke to an NCAA agent at Haverhill for the Boston hockey nights tournament this summer, they were amazed by the quality of Omsk players. HUGE NO!
I don't think the quality is that bad, maybe its just the game you went to, because an NCAA team should be able to beat a CHL team on most nights and I would say the CHL is slightly stronger than the MHL generally depending on the team.

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Old
12-18-2012, 06:15 PM
  #66
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http://www.allhockey.ru/news/137972/

this is hillarious

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Old
12-19-2012, 03:21 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
You mean Prokhorkin's agent? That's just another typical "NA hockey dream" story. Let's hope that Prokhorkin will have a great season in Tver.

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Old
12-19-2012, 04:10 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
There is different among 18 old prospect and 25 old players
Actually, if they are free entities, there is no difference.

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Old
12-19-2012, 06:12 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Helpoing View Post
You mean Prokhorkin's agent? That's just another typical "NA hockey dream" story. Let's hope that Prokhorkin will have a great season in Tver.
I mean the whole story, dumb young players being fooled into something that is not, almost cost the guy his career

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12-19-2012, 06:15 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Actually, if they are free entities, there is no difference.
please don't play dumb, he means the development, and not only on the ice, but the level of maturity in real life as well.

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12-19-2012, 06:43 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
At least Prokhorkin doesn't do the Anisin, so he should be all right and find his stride.

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Old
12-19-2012, 08:19 AM
  #72
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http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=9564

that's another career destroyed by NA

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Old
12-19-2012, 06:11 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=9564

that's another career destroyed by NA
Or he just wasn't that good in the first place? It's not like he had any great stats in Russia before CHL either...

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Old
12-19-2012, 08:54 PM
  #74
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Or he just wasn't that good in the first place?
Valid argument. I think some people here are too quick to jump to conclusions in regards to how North America ruins Russian players. Just because a player doesn't turn out to be as great as predicted, doesn't mean it's due to him not having finished his development in Russia. There's no "control case", so you can't say what would have happened if he chose not to go play in the CHL/AHL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
It's not like he had any great stats in Russia before CHL either...
This, however, I don't get. He's a defenseman, so I don't see how you can tell how good of a prospect or player he was prior to leaving for North America based on stats alone. Even for forwards it's a flawed metric, but for defensemen it's almost entirely useless.

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Old
12-19-2012, 10:51 PM
  #75
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Or he just wasn't that good in the first place? It's not like he had any great stats in Russia before CHL either...
Only the best dman in a gold winning wjc team with highest +/- and great upside

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