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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VIIII: "We're Close" "We're Not Close" Edition

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Old
12-12-2012, 05:08 PM
  #676
Bird Law
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
https://twitter.com/RealKyper/status/278985595827654656



What were they talking about all that time then?
**** the owners.

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12-12-2012, 05:17 PM
  #677
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Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
If I made an offer I thought was incredibly generous and that would be accepted right away, i'd probably b a little miffed and back up in future conversations if it got scoffed at.
Are you talking about the owners or the players here, because they've both done it? Owners have taken quite a few elements from player proposals, pretty much every time they stormed out and told the media they were disappointed and they weren't speaking the same language. Not sure why it's only one side getting knocked for this move.

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12-12-2012, 05:22 PM
  #678
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They were in separate rooms. The mediators go back and forth between the rooms with the others side views/ideas.
Grown men acting like 8 year olds. Grow up, compromise, and get a deal done. Such a waste of time.

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12-12-2012, 05:27 PM
  #679
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I think it's time to just shut down the NHL.

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12-12-2012, 05:33 PM
  #680
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Just decertify and end this charade. Neither side is going to get serious until that threat becomes reality.

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12-12-2012, 06:01 PM
  #681
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Originally Posted by Rangers79 View Post
I think it's time to just shut down the NHL.
i bet the owners would not even care if this ever did happen. the only ones that would suffer is the fans, the players can always find jobs in europe.... how about getting people who actually care about the game and not some businessmen ********.

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12-12-2012, 06:14 PM
  #682
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Zipay says players are "huddling" over the proposal.

Seems like its decision time. Either they agree to the deal and we get a half season, or we'll probably see it cancelled.

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12-12-2012, 06:20 PM
  #683
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i bet the owners would not even care if this ever did happen. the only ones that would suffer is the fans, the players can always find jobs in europe.... how about getting people who actually care about the game and not some businessmen ********.
Well, for starters, they'd **** it up even more.

Even more importantly, they dont have the money to run the business.

I could go on but its not worth it.

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12-12-2012, 06:27 PM
  #684
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I just can't get over the fact that both Bettman and Fehr are failures at their jobs. Right now they have one job - find a fair and equitable agreement to be able to get the league back to functionality again. If it takes time to find that agreement they should be meeting as often as possible to get there.

Instead, here is so far what they have done:

-Not offered fair agreements
-Not met often at all
-Given ultimatums and specifically not negotiated
-Bullied then played the victim card
-Spent more time organizing public manipulation rather than negotiating an agreement

I don't know how either of these two actually still have jobs. Actually, I do. Both of them are living in a fantasy world. In the real world, a work stoppage of any magnitude, in any other medium, will result in dismal. See in the real world, patrons actually derive what the owners and employees do, not the other way around.

Everyone is losing somehow! I don't see how posturing is helping either side in the slightest. And what is worse? It seems the owners are the ones being unwilling to negotiate and the timely retrieval of the game benefits them the most! Think about going to your favorite restaurant and then reading a notice saying it would be closed until further notice because the employees were disputing with the owner for fair wages. In essence, the biggest loser is the owner, because the people going to his restaurant will go to another restaurant - sooner or later, given enough time, those same people will call another restaurant their favorite and lose interest in the original. Same concept.

I'm not going to say shame on one side, or shame on the other. I'm embarrassed for both. Neither is genuine. Neither is interested in a deal to get the game on the ice. Both should be ready to deal with the repercussions now. And they are big ones, mind you.

NHL had unprecedented growth these last 3 years. All lost. Interest is definitely lost in the sport from the non-diehards. They're all watching basketball, or football, boxing or soccer abroad. People that were growing excited to watch hockey are forgetting about it quickly, if not already forgotten. That will mean less people will go to the arenas less often, less people will buy merchandise, less people will tune into games. As a result of that, TV sponsors will offer less/drop the NHL since it wont be as profitable as other programming. Owners took a drastic misstep in this entire process. Fool me once shame on shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. They've played this card two too many times in the last CBA negotations, now reap the loss in fanbase and interest.

As for players, congratulations. You didn't bend. You did it. With the loss of interest in the NHL and subsequent drop in profitability for many owners and teams, enjoy lower wages on average for years to come. You sure got them!

Disgusted to say im a fan of this league.

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Old
12-12-2012, 06:36 PM
  #685
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cant wait till they cancel the season and drop the players to 35% as a starting point

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12-12-2012, 06:43 PM
  #686
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cant wait till they cancel the season and drop the players to 35% as a starting point
That would not be bargaining in good faith, and would be a serious problem. Anyway, the players will decertify if the owners take it to some crazy level.

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Old
12-12-2012, 06:43 PM
  #687
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Let's go back to a question I asked awhile ago.

Is it possible that Fehr will "win" but the players and owners will lose? LOL

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Old
12-12-2012, 07:04 PM
  #688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
That would not be bargaining in good faith, and would be a serious problem. Anyway, the players will decertify if the owners take it to some crazy level.
NHL lawyers seem pretty confident in there case vs any Anti-Trust case

The NHLPA decertifies and we are not having season next year (It will be long fight in courts) and if NHL wins they can force a CBA on the NHLPA

Really pointless for NHLPA to even consider to decertify and holding out is pointless as once the season is cancelled they will not only lose all there $$$ for this year but the next owner CBA offers will be far worse

NHL lowering HRR and CBA offer would not be bargaining in goof faith as NHL can simply claim the economic losses to sport are that severe

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12-12-2012, 07:04 PM
  #689
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"Winning" for tha PA depends on the outcome of the next negotiation, not this one. Everything Fehr has done has been to put an end to the leagues mindset that they can steamroll the union.

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12-12-2012, 07:05 PM
  #690
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i blame the players at this point. theyre not going to win and everyone knows it. just accept an offer and get it over with.

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12-12-2012, 07:05 PM
  #691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
**** the owners.
It was NHLPA that wanted a mediator

NHL told the NHLPA that it was pointless ,, This was PR for players and it looks just as bad as last week when Fehr had his idiotic press conference

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12-12-2012, 07:18 PM
  #692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
It was NHLPA that wanted a mediator

NHL told the NHLPA that it was pointless ,, This was PR for players and it looks just as bad as last week when Fehr had his idiotic press conference
Fehr thought they were close because they we're separated by 2 years on the cba length and 3 years on the contract cap. That's idiotic? No less idiotic than the "hill" comment or the orchestrated owner pressures. This is on both sides, but your over the top rosie outcomes, no matter what path this takes, for the owners is tiresome. The players have a very good case if it goes to the courts and the owners won't even want to risk the potential outcomes. Decertification will force the end to this mess.


Last edited by TP: 12-12-2012 at 07:32 PM. Reason: mod
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12-12-2012, 07:29 PM
  #693
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Fehr thought they were close because they we're separated by 2 years on the cba length and 3 years on the contract cap. That's idiotic? No less idiotic than the "hill" comment or the orchestrated owner pressures. This is on both sides, but your over the top rosie outcomes, no matter what path this takes, for the owners is tiresome. The players have a very good case if it goes to the courts and the owners won't even want to risk the potential outcomes. Decertification will force the end to this mess.
IMO, Either the PA folds , initiates a new offer, or the owners are prepared and willing to go the legal route. The owners are fully aware of the risks, possible outcomes, and probabilities of success. The owners are fully aware of the players next possible move and are negotiating with the idea that the PA could follow that road. If the sides are truly close why would the PA want to go down the decert lane? Simply for respect? If the sides aren't close than all bets are off.


Last edited by ltrangerfan: 12-12-2012 at 08:09 PM. Reason: quote
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Old
12-12-2012, 08:40 PM
  #694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Fehr thought they were close because they we're separated by 2 years on the cba length and 3 years on the contract cap. That's idiotic? No less idiotic than the "hill" comment or the orchestrated owner pressures. This is on both sides, but your over the top rosie outcomes, no matter what path this takes, for the owners is tiresome. The players have a very good case if it goes to the courts and the owners won't even want to risk the potential outcomes. Decertification will force the end to this mess.
Its idiotic because Fehr was told they were not close and the deal was likely going to be shot down before the media avail.

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12-12-2012, 08:49 PM
  #695
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I still don't see why people are talking like decertification is going to somehow help the players overall. Unless I'm totally misunderstanding this, every player will miss all of this year and probably all of next year as they battle it out, and if they win there are no rules, which will hurt everyone but the most talented players, and if they lose the owners will get them to take what they want after already losing 2 years worth of salary and doing an unfathomable amount of damage to the revenues that they all depend on to get paid. How is this at all threatening to the owners aside from potentially costing them (and the players) two years of income?

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Old
12-12-2012, 09:12 PM
  #696
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Decertification is a gamble for the players, but is also a serious threat to the existence of many teams in the NHL. Having no union and therefore no CBA arguably hurts the owners more than the players. The owners should want no part of that scenario.

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12-12-2012, 09:14 PM
  #697
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
NHL lawyers seem pretty confident in there case vs any Anti-Trust case

The NHLPA decertifies and we are not having season next year (It will be long fight in courts) and if NHL wins they can force a CBA on the NHLPA

Really pointless for NHLPA to even consider to decertify and holding out is pointless as once the season is cancelled they will not only lose all there $$$ for this year but the next owner CBA offers will be far worse

NHL lowering HRR and CBA offer would not be bargaining in goof faith as NHL can simply claim the economic losses to sport are that severe
How could the NHL lawyers be confident in their case? There's no governing case law over this type of situation. Cite me the case that establishes an NHL win in anti-trust litigation. The truth is that neither side knows what would happen if that litigation were to actually commence. The only thing that is known for sure is that both sides are going to be paying lots and lots of cash in legal fees.

If the NHL wins in anti-trust litigation after the NHLPA decertifies they aren't going to "force a CBA" on anybody. You can't have a CBA when you're no longer negotiating with a union.

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12-12-2012, 09:19 PM
  #698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
It was NHLPA that wanted a mediator

NHL told the NHLPA that it was pointless ,, This was PR for players and it looks just as bad as last week when Fehr had his idiotic press conference
What does this have to do with take it or leave it offers?

The NHL is disgusting. Thank God for the NFL and NCAA Hockey.

I will always be a Rangers can. I am now no longer a fan of the NHL. I doubt I will ever tune into non-Rangers games like I used to. Shame on the NHL and the owners in particular.

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12-12-2012, 09:22 PM
  #699
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How could the NHL lawyers be confident in their case? There's no governing case law over this type of situation. Cite me the case that establishes an NHL win in anti-trust litigation. The truth is that neither side knows what would happen if that litigation were to actually commence. The only thing that is known for sure is that both sides are going to be paying lots and lots of cash in legal fees.

If the NHL wins in anti-trust litigation after the NHLPA decertifies they aren't going to "force a CBA" on anybody. You can't have a CBA when you're no longer negotiating with a union.
Kind of hard to make anti-trust laws stick against something that isn't anything near a monopoly. There's a reason no one has threatened de-certification and that's because it wouldn't work in a million years.

People around here throwing around phrases like "anti-trust" like they even know that it means.

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12-12-2012, 09:34 PM
  #700
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Originally Posted by vladmyir111 View Post
Kind of hard to make anti-trust laws stick against something that isn't anything near a monopoly. There's a reason no one has threatened de-certification and that's because it wouldn't work in a million years.

People around here throwing around phrases like "anti-trust" like they even know that it means.
There are elements of the structure of the NHL that would never be allowed outside of a collectively bargained agreement with a union namely: salary cap, max salaries and the NHL draft. Think about it for a while. Try to provide me with a private industry with non-unionized labor that can utilize those types of tools in hiring its employees.

The fact that your mind only associates the term "anti-trust" with "monopoly" illustrates that you have absolutely no idea about the full breadth of anti-trust laws in this country.


Last edited by StaalWars: 12-12-2012 at 09:39 PM.
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