HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > World Junior Championship
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
World Junior Championship Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-12-2012, 11:30 AM
  #651
Mr Writer
Registered User
 
Mr Writer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,064
vCash: 500
some respect today for Canada from Ilya Kovalchuk in preparation for tomorrow's start to the Moscow stage of Eurotour, in response to a reporter's question, he answered something like this... "do you believe so well in advance that we'll beautifully beat the Canadians? The Canadians have a strong team."

Sochi will be a blast, but according to Fetisov he claims the NHL has no interest in shutting down next year to accommodate the Olympics and will in the future even restrict NHL players participating in the World Championships. but I digress.....

didn't like Ilya much when he was in his early 20s, but as he gets older approaching 30 he is one of my favorites.

Mr Writer is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 12:15 PM
  #652
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,538
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Wow, one play.

That's some pretty stellar sleuthing there Inspector Gadget.

I guess the other 180 minutes + OT of the series don't mean anything.

I'm sure that Canada has never experienced poor refereeing decisions throughout their international hockey history.
The other 180 minutes + OT of the series resulted in a tie, so yes, WOW, that one play was the difference between the Soviets and Canada in the enire series. Canadians scoff at the notion that the Soviets got screwed in the Canada Cup, but the evidence is right there in front of you. No big deal, but its why Europeans dont recognize the validity of the Canada Cup as an international tournament. Only an invitational exhibition that measures nothing.

Yakushev72 is online now  
Old
12-12-2012, 01:31 PM
  #653
NyQuil
Setec Astronomy
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NyLand
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,248
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Canadians scoff at the notion that the Soviets got screwed in the Canada Cup, but the evidence is right there in front of you. No big deal, but its why Europeans dont recognize the validity of the Canada Cup as an international tournament. Only an invitational exhibition that measures nothing.
I'm glad you finally understand how we feel about the World Championships.

NyQuil is online now  
Old
12-12-2012, 05:22 PM
  #654
Henri M
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Country: Norway
Posts: 139
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
I'm glad you finally understand how we feel about the World Championships.
Yet you are excited about the world junior championships? If so, then logic much?
Considering that the quality of hockey is far superior in the WC than in the WJC.

I find it curious when a few North Americans proclaime their love for the WJC because it is "good hockey", but at the same time deride the WC because it is not a "best of tournament".

Henri M is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 05:31 PM
  #655
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,538
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
I'm glad you finally understand how we feel about the World Championships.
To each his own. As a Canadian, your focus would naturally be on the Stanley Cup, while for Europeans, even rabid hockey fans, they would probably have no idea which teams were contending for the Stanley Cup. Their focus is going to be on the World Championships, because its most frequently played in Europe, and is usually won by a European country. All people are more interested in what is going on in their own neighborhood.

Yakushev72 is online now  
Old
12-12-2012, 05:37 PM
  #656
NyQuil
Setec Astronomy
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NyLand
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,248
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M View Post
Yet you are excited about the world junior championships? If so, then logic much?
Considering that the quality of hockey is far superior in the WC than in the WJC.

I find it curious when a few North Americans proclaime their love for the WJC because it is "good hockey", but at the same time deride the WC because it is not a "best of tournament".
Personally I don't attribute any global ranking implications for the WJC, same as the WCs.

I like it because it is good entertainment for a number of reasons:

1. The rosters change annually and permanently so you will always see different players.

2. It is interesting to reflect on players in the NHL and remember how they looked and played many years ago at the WJC.

3. It is international hockey that is televised in prime time NA time relatively often.

The top reason applies to the WCs as well for the most part.

Both tournaments are entertaining but I don't ascribe a lot of value to them as global hockey performance benchmarks.

NyQuil is online now  
Old
12-12-2012, 06:01 PM
  #657
Xokkeu
Registered User
 
Xokkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Frozen
Country: Antarctica
Posts: 4,638
vCash: 500
The World Juniors are great because the players have a high level of skill, but their relative immaturity leads to huge swings in play creating exciting games that sway back and forth. For example, simply look at the Russia-Canada games of the past two years. First Canada looks to be set to win the gold, up 3-0 in the 3rd. In 15 minutes Russia wipes that out and wins the game. Next we have Russia going up 6-1 and then being a goal post away from tying the game 6-6, falling just short 6-5. If you have experienced professional players, I don't think you see exciting comebacks like this in the World Championships, Stanley Cup playoffs or Olympics. The players are simply too experienced and strong mentally to let that happen more than once in a blue moon.

Xokkeu is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 06:09 PM
  #658
Henri M
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Country: Norway
Posts: 139
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Personally I don't attribute any global ranking implications for the WJC, same as the WCs.

I like it because it is good entertainment for a number of reasons:

1. The rosters change annually and permanently so you will always see different players.

2. It is interesting to reflect on players in the NHL and remember how they looked and played many years ago at the WJC.

3. It is international hockey that is televised in prime time NA time relatively often.

The top reason applies to the WCs as well for the most part.

Both tournaments are entertaining but I don't ascribe a lot of value to them as global hockey performance benchmarks.
I agree with this argumentation, Touché.

Henri M is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 06:46 PM
  #659
stlblues9
Registered User
 
stlblues9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,843
vCash: 3530
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Personally I don't attribute any global ranking implications for the WJC, same as the WCs.

I like it because it is good entertainment for a number of reasons:

1. The rosters change annually and permanently so you will always see different players.

2. It is interesting to reflect on players in the NHL and remember how they looked and played many years ago at the WJC.

3. It is international hockey that is televised in prime time NA time relatively often.

The top reason applies to the WCs as well for the most part.

Both tournaments are entertaining but I don't ascribe a lot of value to them as global hockey performance benchmarks.
It's just like when people say March Madness is more exciting than the NBA. I think that's because these kids are giving absolutely everything they have to win which makes the tournament so exciting.

As for Russia overtaking Canada, never gonna happen.

stlblues9 is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 07:23 PM
  #660
NyQuil
Setec Astronomy
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NyLand
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,248
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
The World Juniors are great because the players have a high level of skill, but their relative immaturity leads to huge swings in play creating exciting games that sway back and forth. For example, simply look at the Russia-Canada games of the past two years. First Canada looks to be set to win the gold, up 3-0 in the 3rd. In 15 minutes Russia wipes that out and wins the game. Next we have Russia going up 6-1 and then being a goal post away from tying the game 6-6, falling just short 6-5. If you have experienced professional players, I don't think you see exciting comebacks like this in the World Championships, Stanley Cup playoffs or Olympics. The players are simply too experienced and strong mentally to let that happen more than once in a blue moon.
It's why watching Junior sports in general can be really entertaining.

No lead is safe, as you've said.

NyQuil is online now  
Old
12-12-2012, 08:28 PM
  #661
capitalsrock
Registered User
 
capitalsrock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 1,971
vCash: 500
1. Canada
2. Russia
3. USA
4. Sweden
5. Czech Republic
6. Slovakia
7. Finland
8. Switzerland
9. Germany
10. Norway/Belarus

capitalsrock is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 08:41 PM
  #662
Dasachtach
Bluenoser
 
Dasachtach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Birthplace of Hockey
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,834
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M View Post
Yet you are excited about the world junior championships? If so, then logic much?
Considering that the quality of hockey is far superior in the WC than in the WJC.

I find it curious when a few North Americans proclaime their love for the WJC because it is "good hockey", but at the same time deride the WC because it is not a "best of tournament".
I don't understand the contradiction. The WJC is a "best of tournament"; albeit, with a few exceptions.

Dasachtach is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 08:42 PM
  #663
stlblues9
Registered User
 
stlblues9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,843
vCash: 3530
Quote:
Originally Posted by capitalsrock View Post
1. Canada
2. Russia
3. USA
4. Sweden
5. Czech Republic
6. Slovakia
7. Finland
8. Switzerland
9. Germany
10. Norway/Belarus
1)Canada
2)Russia
3)Sweden
4)USA
5)Finland
6)Czech
7)Slovakia
8)Switzerland
9)Who cares about the rest.

/thread

stlblues9 is offline  
Old
12-12-2012, 11:25 PM
  #664
Ryker
Registered User
 
Ryker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Triangle, NC, USA
Country: Slovenia
Posts: 3,100
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M View Post
Yet you are excited about the world junior championships? If so, then logic much?
Considering that the quality of hockey is far superior in the WC than in the WJC.
I don't think the quality of a particular league or tournament alone determine how interested people are in it. Personally, when I lived back in Europe, I also much preferred EBEL to the NHL, just because it was my local league and was more emotionally involved with the teams I was cheering for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogle122 View Post
I don't understand the contradiction. The WJC is a "best of tournament"; albeit, with a few exceptions.
Exactly. There are also other factors that determine what people like and what they don't. I mean, I like the sport of hockey in general, and while, yes, it is better to watch games where the level of play is higher all other factors being equal, other stuff can tip the scales.

Ryker is offline  
Old
12-13-2012, 05:06 AM
  #665
Henri M
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Country: Norway
Posts: 139
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domhnall Dubh View Post
I don't understand the contradiction. The WJC is a "best of tournament"; albeit, with a few exceptions.
I was only pointing out my disagreement with those who deem the WC as an uninteresting tournament due to a low skill level. If this would be ones main argument for disinterest towards one tournament, then one would think that he/she would also be more disinterested in regards to another tournament with even lower skill level.
But as pointed out, there are many other aspects of the WJC which are appealing.

Henri M is offline  
Old
12-13-2012, 05:18 AM
  #666
KEEROLE Vatanen
Failures Of Fenwick
 
KEEROLE Vatanen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 19,509
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by clarksmustache View Post
Why didn't USA win in 2002 then?
Well, Canada was a fortunate crossbar bounce away from losing in 2010 to the USA

KEEROLE Vatanen is online now  
Old
12-13-2012, 05:28 AM
  #667
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 3,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M View Post
I was only pointing out my disagreement with those who deem the WC as an uninteresting tournament due to a low skill level. If this would be ones main argument for disinterest towards one tournament, then one would think that he/she would also be more disinterested in regards to another tournament with even lower skill level.
But as pointed out, there are many other aspects of the WJC which are appealing.
You are misinterpreting comments regarding the status of the WHC's as being representative of a country's relative hockey strength.

daver is offline  
Old
12-13-2012, 05:34 AM
  #668
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 3,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Personally I don't attribute any global ranking implications for the WJC, same as the WCs.

I like it because it is good entertainment for a number of reasons:

1. The rosters change annually and permanently so you will always see different players.

2. It is interesting to reflect on players in the NHL and remember how they looked and played many years ago at the WJC.

3. It is international hockey that is televised in prime time NA time relatively often.

The top reason applies to the WCs as well for the most part.

Both tournaments are entertaining but I don't ascribe a lot of value to them as global hockey performance benchmarks.
Why shouldn't the WJC's be seen as an indicator of a country's strength? The results seem to mirror senior results pretty well.

daver is offline  
Old
12-13-2012, 09:02 AM
  #669
NyQuil
Setec Astronomy
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NyLand
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,248
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
Why shouldn't the WJC's be seen as an indicator of a country's strength? The results seem to mirror senior results pretty well.
I have said earlier in the thread that severe age restrictions have a disproportionate impact on smaller hockey nations.

NyQuil is online now  
Old
12-13-2012, 10:25 AM
  #670
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 3,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
I have said earlier in the thread that severe age restrictions have a disproportionate impact on smaller hockey nations.
The same thing can be said to a lesser extent for senior teams. It's one of the main reasons why Canada is considered #1.

daver is offline  
Old
12-13-2012, 10:42 AM
  #671
NyQuil
Setec Astronomy
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NyLand
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,248
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
The same thing can be said to a lesser extent for senior teams. It's one of the main reasons why Canada is considered #1.
The difference being that, at the senior level, a small country can compensate for a weak year of development with additional senior players, given that they have a 15-18 year window of players to choose from (give or take).

With the World Juniors, I'd say the emphasis is much more on player depth than at the senior level, where you are only looking for 18 players across many years of hockey experience.

I consider age restrictions to be an artificial constraint on a country's ability to exhibit their best hockey, and that they favour countries with large numbers of players.

NyQuil is online now  
Old
12-13-2012, 10:56 AM
  #672
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 3,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
The difference being that, at the senior level, a small country can compensate for a weak year of development with additional senior players, given that they have 15-18 years of players to choose from (give or take).

With the World Juniors, I'd say the emphasis is much more on depth than at the senior level, where you are only looking for 18 players across many years of hockey experience.
Based on WJC results, seems like small countries are always having a weak year of development.

daver is offline  
Old
12-13-2012, 12:18 PM
  #673
NyQuil
Setec Astronomy
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NyLand
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,248
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
Based on WJC results, seems like small countries are always having a weak year of development.
And yet, teams like Switzerland can be quite a handful at the senior level.

Finland seems to have peaks and valleys in terms of World Junior competitiveness. Their senior level competitiveness doesn't vary to the same extent IMO.

NyQuil is online now  
Old
12-13-2012, 12:38 PM
  #674
CoolForumNamePending
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,160
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
Based on WJC results, seems like small countries are always having a weak year of development.
This shouldn't be that hard to figure out. If a smaller nation typically produces only 2 or 3 "good" players a year they are usually going to have a pretty thin roster when it comes to tournaments with age restrictions that require countries to select players from only 2 or 3 birth years. At the senior level producing 2 or 3 "good" players a year is going to give a country a pool of at least 30 players to select from which is more than enough to put together a decent team.

The country that produces dozens (even hundreds) of "good" players a year is still going to have a more talented team at the senior level but the smaller country will have closed the gap considerably.


Last edited by CoolForumNamePending: 12-13-2012 at 12:57 PM.
CoolForumNamePending is offline  
Old
12-13-2012, 12:50 PM
  #675
Leo Trollmarov
I was in the pool!!
 
Leo Trollmarov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,836
vCash: 555
Being small or big isn't a defense or argument for not being the best, it is just the reason you aren't. It is not a bad thing Canada is the best because of their numbers, thats just the way things work. If/when the USA and Russia cat p in numbers they will be much closer to Canada and make for some even better hockey.

Good thing about hockey is the best team doesn't always win in a single game. Thats what makes it exciting.

Leo Trollmarov is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:44 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.