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Around the League 2012-12 I: Gary and Donald sitting in a tree

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Old
12-07-2012, 09:49 PM
  #451
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I'd be willing to bet quite a bit of money this is done in a week. Last night had all the signs of a last attempt of huffing and puffing. Fehr tried a power move without having any leverage and it was a spectacular failure. He has no place to go but to get a deal done now or go completely nuclear. And I have a feeling the players don't want anything to do with the latter.

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12-07-2012, 09:55 PM
  #452
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Bettman was never a part of this last round of negotiations. The NHLPA demanded (said it was non-negotiable) that the personnel restrictions be lifted - but Bettman stayed away anyways.

Not like any of it really matters at all. The owners this last week that the PA was working with included, what has to be considered, their closest allies. Who wants to play more than Toronto? The fact that they alienated all of them to a point where they left in the manner they did is more telling than any PC Bettman or Fehr can put on. So the pro-PA people can put every angled spin on it that they want but at the end of the day the guy who is losing the most out of every single person on the NHL's side just stormed out... so saying how the PA's proposals would pass a league vote and blah blah blah.. how is it going to pass if the moderate owners are enraged?

Then again, the PA has essentially done absolutely nothing and the offers keep getting better so good for them...

I for one don't see why the league is giving them as much as they are. I get that the players are in the top 1% for their given skills but that's only worth what the markets dictate it's worth. If you are the best person in the world at stacking cups... you're not going to make 20 mil a year off that because there isn't a market to support that. So what are KHL/SEL salaries? Less than 50% HRR in the NHL even with the tax discrepancy, that's for sure. The NHL is already overpaying them and only a handful of teams are truly making decent money. They aren't entitled to 57% of revenue... they get what they get and if they don't like the pay there are other leagues they can go to... but those leagues pay significantly less then what the NHL is offering. So this whole 'all the owners do is take and take and take' attitude is just ridiculous PR - the owners have been overpaying the players for years in a sport with high overhead and low profits relative to other NA sports. I understand nobody likes a paycut, but the entitled attitude when most of the employers are in the red doesn't get any sympathy from me.

But like I said, the offers have only gotten better so there's that... but of course, is a slightly better offer worth missing 1/4, 1/2, or all of a season? Apparently Fehr thinks so, but I imagine it's easier to calculate when all that matters is if you win or not.

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12-07-2012, 10:04 PM
  #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruiner058 View Post
Bettman was never a part of this last round of negotiations. The NHLPA demanded (said it was non-negotiable) that the personnel restrictions be lifted - but Bettman stayed away anyways.

Not like any of it really matters at all. The owners this last week that the PA was working with included, what has to be considered, their closest allies. Who wants to play more than Toronto? The fact that they alienated all of them to a point where they left in the manner they did is more telling than any PC Bettman or Fehr can put on. So the pro-PA people can put every angled spin on it that they want but at the end of the day the guy who is losing the most out of every single person on the NHL's side just stormed out... so saying how the PA's proposals would pass a league vote and blah blah blah.. how is it going to pass if the moderate owners are enraged?

Then again, the PA has essentially done absolutely nothing and the offers keep getting better so good for them...

I for one don't see why the league is giving them as much as they are. I get that the players are in the top 1% for their given skills but that's only worth what the markets dictate it's worth. If you are the best person in the world at stacking cups... you're not going to make 20 mil a year off that because there isn't a market to support that. So what are KHL/SEL salaries? Less than 50% HRR in the NHL even with the tax discrepancy, that's for sure. The NHL is already overpaying them and only a handful of teams are truly making decent money. They aren't entitled to 57% of revenue... they get what they get and if they don't like the pay there are other leagues they can go to... but those leagues pay significantly less then what the NHL is offering. So this whole 'all the owners do is take and take and take' attitude is just ridiculous PR - the owners have been overpaying the players for years in a sport with high overhead and low profits relative to other NA sports. I understand nobody likes a paycut, but the entitled attitude when most of the employers are in the red doesn't get any sympathy from me.

But like I said, the offers have only gotten better so there's that... but of course, is a slightly better offer worth missing 1/4, 1/2, or all of a season? Apparently Fehr thinks so, but I imagine it's easier to calculate when all that matters is if you win or not.
Good post. I agree with what you're saying. What I don't understand is, why the NHLPA wouldn't want an EVEN LONGER CBA than the 10 years proposed by the league.

Odds are, when the NBA (not sure how long that one is) and the NFL (10 years) CBAs are up, it's very likely that the percentage the players get is going to go down AGAIN. If I were the NHLPA, I'd want to do 12-14 years because 50% is going to look really good when the NBA / NFL drops down to 45%.

Just my opinion, it could very well stay at 50% but I certainly don't see it going UP.

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12-08-2012, 12:25 PM
  #454
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Firstly, it doesn't matter if Bettman storms out of the room and gets angry. Watch his press conference and he explains WHY in detail.

They were all set to sign the deal and all they needed was a 'YES' from the players, instead, they got a bunch of other modifications to their conditions. Fehr decided to hold out for more and it's pissing off the league. I don't care much for Fehr but it's his RIGHT to do that if he wants. That's the reason he was hired. I personally believe that there is some risk involved in that but I'm guessing Fehr believes he can get more.

I get what you mean about the issues on contract length. I don't quite get it either. It's almost a mechanism to prevent GMs from being too retarded. (Don't kid yourself, they'd still be plenty retarded with a fixed term, but I guess it wouldn't be for as long) Still, if those are the issues that they are fighting for, so be it. I read that the NHLPA offered 8 years. You have to believe that somewhere down the line, they should be able to negotiate a number between 5 and 8.

I don't believe that the reasons it 'went off the cliff' is 100% accurate. Someone from the league side said that if Fehr was going to 'come back into the room' that might be a deal-breaker. Well, I don't believe the league could expect Sidney Crosby to draw up a legal agreement or make decisions of that nature for 700 guys, after all that's what they hired Fehr for anyways.

But again, this is ALL part of negotiations and tactics and strategies. Perhaps after getting things so close, even the slight notion that putting Fehr back in screwed up the process of an eventual deal could be seen as a black mark against the leader of the PA with his own membership.

And don't kid yourself, that voicemail horsecrap is an absolute joke. If you're in the middle of negotiating with the other party and you've made them a proposal and THEY ****ING CALL YOU ON THE PHONE, you answer the damn thing!! They let it go to voicemail, on purpose because they knew what the reaction/answer was going to be AND because they figured they'd use it to make the league look bad.

Lots of posturing still going on, BOTH SIDES but we're closer than we were before.

Bob MacKenzie tweeted something interesting today. There are 89 players on contracts that were signed to longer than 5 years. Of those 89, just over half are on 6-7 year deals as UFA or RFA with their own clubs. So a 5 year contract term limit could conceivably apply to just over 40 players. (5.7% of the players)
Poor Brandon Yip, he'll never sign that 10 year contract he's been looking for.
I agree with everything you said here, except the last part. Even if it's only a few players on longer deals, having that right is still a big deal. You could say the same thing on the flip side anyway, that if it's so few players, than it's not really something the league needs to die on the hill for.

The reason it went off the cliff I mentioned in regard to the Leafs owner was reported by Dreger or one of the other insiders, as THE turning point when things went from cordial and optimistic, to upset and confused. The two moderate owners offered up the money they realized they had to, but did it first in the process instead of holding out to the last second, and when the PA made a counter offer instead of accepting the deal. The Leafs bring in the most revenue in the league, that's why he is the one that's most upset. When they agree to the numbers, he is the one that has to give more money to the struggling teams.

As you say, if the PA offered 8, there should be a way to find a middle ground there, but you don't do that by breaking off negotiations, and taking your offer off the table. Bettman does that pretty much after every meeting. It's his strategy, and it may work against someone less experienced than Fehr, but as it is it just draws things out.

They were so close, it's ridiculous they called the whole thing off, even if they had issue with what was being offered, or that Fehr and Bettman got back involved. Especially when according to Hainsey the owners on the other side were arguing with each other because they weren't clear on what their own proposal was. You can't be negotiating in that environment. If they make you an offer, and you soften your stance and agree to something, and they come back and say the owners have decided they don't want to make that offer after all, you've already showed your hand and softened your stance. At least in that regard, I understand the PA's desire to bring back the leaders to get everyone on the same page.


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Old
12-11-2012, 06:03 PM
  #455
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2001 Stanley cup finals game 7 is on NHL network now

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12-11-2012, 07:04 PM
  #456
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Thanks Krishna. Good of you to help.

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ďItís embarrassing. Iím embarrassed to be here right now. Itís not even funny. And itís just embarrassing, the way we, you know, the energy we have in the room and the way we approach practices and the way we approach this game. Itís not how youíre going to win any games in this league." - Jean-Sebastien Giguere, April 8 2013
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12-11-2012, 07:36 PM
  #457
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pitash pitash



Damn Bourque was a good dman even at 40.

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12-12-2012, 12:35 PM
  #458
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Why is it so hard for them to agree on term of the CBA? The NHL wants 10 years with an opt out after 8. The PA wants 8 years with an opt out after 6.

Just make it 8 years flat. No opt out. Pretty obvious this is the middle ground here.

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12-12-2012, 05:24 PM
  #459
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@RealKyper: #CBA meeting over. No progress. #NHL remains firm on "take it or leave it" last offer to #NHLPA.

Now that's how you get a deal done. Agree to meet up and once again go with the same "take it or leave it" offer that was rejected last week. Well done.

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12-12-2012, 05:38 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
@RealKyper: #CBA meeting over. No progress. #NHL remains firm on "take it or leave it" last offer to #NHLPA.

Now that's how you get a deal done. Agree to meet up and once again go with the same "take it or leave it" offer that was rejected last week. Well done.
Also the same offer that was taken off the table last week.

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12-12-2012, 07:18 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
@RealKyper: #CBA meeting over. No progress. #NHL remains firm on "take it or leave it" last offer to #NHLPA.

Now that's how you get a deal done. Agree to meet up and once again go with the same "take it or leave it" offer that was rejected last week. Well done.
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Also the same offer that was taken off the table last week.
the NHLPA should ask their members to vote on last's week offer. They have a PA website where each player can log on with their own secret pw . I mean how hard is it to make them vote on a question. Yes or No do you accept the proposition.

But i'm guessing that Donald Fehr is affraid of the result.

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12-12-2012, 07:42 PM
  #462
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I found this on the internet:


and on players voting on the proposal... I forget what his account name is, but Matt Barnaby was talking about doing that earlier, and how they didn't have that option last time. Quite interesting.

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12-12-2012, 08:34 PM
  #463
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I found this on the internet:


and on players voting on the proposal... I forget what his account name is, but Matt Barnaby was talking about doing that earlier, and how they didn't have that option last time. Quite interesting.
i'm pretty sure that if the players had the chance to vote that the lockout would be over by now . Right now, it's Fehr and a hand full of players speaking and dictating for the majority.You can almost take it to the bank that Roman Hamrlik is not on a class of his own, when he spoke a few weeks ago.

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12-12-2012, 08:41 PM
  #464
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We are organizing a most handsome player in the league poll tournament for the poll board, could you guys give me 3 of the most handsome players on the team?

We are doing a 68 player tournament and are doing 2 from each team with 8 players as wildcards.

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12-12-2012, 08:50 PM
  #465
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Big Sexy and The Viking.

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12-12-2012, 09:02 PM
  #466
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Well.. That tells me so much outside of Landeskog

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12-12-2012, 09:05 PM
  #467
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Well.. That tells me so much outside of Landeskog
O'Byrne is Big Sexy.

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12-15-2012, 02:04 AM
  #468
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What the hell are they doing

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12-15-2012, 02:58 AM
  #469
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Just noticed Varly's pic on the Avs site... I spent 30 seconds trying to decide what type of facial expression he was making. Still no idea.


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12-15-2012, 11:48 AM
  #470
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I'd be willing to bet quite a bit of money this is done in a week. Last night had all the signs of a last attempt of huffing and puffing. Fehr tried a power move without having any leverage and it was a spectacular failure. He has no place to go but to get a deal done now or go completely nuclear. And I have a feeling the players don't want anything to do with the latter.
I should have taken that bet.

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12-15-2012, 12:32 PM
  #471
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I'm surprised the KHL isn't throwing all the money they can at players right now. Here's their opportunity to squash the NHL.

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12-15-2012, 01:31 PM
  #472
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I should have taken that bet.
My faith in rationality betrayed me.

Now we'll have to wait until January because the players have to put up a fight, wildly swinging at air. Just to show they won't get pushed around.

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12-15-2012, 02:21 PM
  #473
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I just wish they would cancel the season already, stop screwing with the fans by giving us false hope and do what was inevitable from the beginning.

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12-15-2012, 05:19 PM
  #474
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I asked this question in the main thread, but thought I'd do it here, in case people have stayed out of that thread.

But I was wondering if anyone has found it funny/humorous that since the news of the NHL filing their grievances and whatnot that none of the players that have been outspoken in the past, have said/tweeted anything about it at all? I mean I remember after the Owners/Players sessions that blew up that quite a few players had several thoughts they felt just HAD to be shared via Twitter and/or interview...suddenly, now that the NHL has filed a suit against them, citing those same players' tweets as evidence that the PA has "not bargained in good faith".

I just find it humorous that now they are all quiet.

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12-16-2012, 10:32 PM
  #475
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Big Sexy and The Viking.
Unfortunately, I think Big Sexy's days with the Avs are over. With Zanon, O'Brien, and Wilson recently signed to multi year deals, and Hejda still with two more years left, there's basically 0% chance they resign him.

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