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Old
12-11-2012, 09:51 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by 14s incisor View Post
Haven't your arguments on both Tanev and Schroeder been based on the fact that they're not putting up solid enough numbers in the AHL to be a solid NHL top 4 D, or an NHL centre, respectively.
Ill say what i said to Tiranis, to you also:

Do you think bringing up whether a person is capable or incapable of hitting a point per game is stat scouting? Do you know what stat scouting is?

It doesn't take a stat scout to know whether a player isn't hitting even close to a point per game or not.

When there is an argument and one side brings up stats much more than the other, to call the opposite side a stat scout is extremely silly. Him claiming i am bringing up no stats/evidence and basing it on my opinion of his play shows the opposite of what you are claiming I am

You can't call me black and then try to call me white within the same thread.

Maybe you need to go back in the pages and see who actually brings up the stats that are mentioned, the fact that i argue back regarding a couple stats that are brought up does not mean i am bringing them up, check where the original information came from.

I never even brought up the comparison of hodgson and schroeder nor did i start comparing their stats.

I said an undersized perimeter center with no grit to his game typically needs to outproduce his colleagues and for the style of player he is, his totals are low. then on come the stats about hodgson saying hodgson did well and their stats were the same (for only 50 games might i add). thats EXACTLY what happened.

So if someone were to analyze all the posts, there is 0 chance they would come out with me being the stat scout. Unless you were being completely biased.

Im saying you can't compare stats. You guys keep bringing them up. I mentioned time and time again that i believe that if hodgson were to continue in the ahl, he wouldn't be continuing to get a similar ppg pace as he did in his first year. I think hodgson's pedigree and vision and skill would have made him a ppg player. My assumptions based on watching them play night in and night out give me this opinion. Which i believe is a similar opinion to the moose gm, scouts, canucks management, etc - considering hodgson made it into the nhl and onto a 2nd line and schroeder is fighting for a chance to get a call up.


Last edited by Pseudonymous: 12-11-2012 at 10:10 PM.
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Old
12-11-2012, 10:09 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by pseudonymous01 View Post
Ill say what i said to Tiranis, to you also:

Do you think bringing up whether a person is capable or incapable of hitting a point per game is stat scouting? Do you know what stat scouting is?

It doesn't take a stat scout to know whether a player isn't hitting even close to a point per game or not.

When there is an argument and one side brings up stats much more than the other, to call one person a stat scout is extremely silly. Him claiming i am bringing up no stats/evidence and basing it on my opinion of his play shows the opposite of what you are claiming I am

You can't call me black and then try to call me white within the same thread.

Maybe you need to go back in the pages and see who actually brings up the stats that are mentioned, the fact that i argue back regarding a couple stats that are brought up does not mean i am bringing them up, check where the original information came from.

I never even brought up the comparison of hodgson and schroeder nor did i start comparing their stats.
Did you, or did you not say that Tanev/Schroeder will not be a top4D/NHLer because they don't put up enough points in the AHL?

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12-11-2012, 10:15 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by 14s incisor View Post
Did you, or did you not say that Tanev/Schroeder will not be a top4D/NHLer because they don't put up enough points in the AHL?
I never said that at all about Tanev

Far from.

His points are fine. Never brought up his points at all in any argument.

I believe Tanev is held back due to his poor shot (& never think shot attitude)/offensive side and strength/physicality. The combination

I never even looked at his stats. Its only been 20 games and in the AHL, what would that tell me about him?

I dont even need to look at his stats to know he has a poor shot and doesn't put up alot of points. Hes just a positionally sound player who makes smart decisions, has good tape to tape passes but still lacks the things mentioned above.

And you can argue all my points about Tanev all you want. But im not going back into that. If you can't respect somebodys opinion without going off, you need to relax. I have brought up completely legit reasons for thinking he's limited to being a 5th D, hey maybe a 4th on a bad team (obrien left our team and went on to be leaned on much more in colorado). On our team, 5th, is what i meant. Are there exceptions, sure. Do i think certain things hold him back and make it less likely, definitely!

Anyway as you see, thats not analyzing his stats. To say whether somebody is an offensive player or not isn't stat scouting (basing your opinions on stats only)

I recall when alot of people said Kesler didn't have the right tools to be a top player in the league, i disagreed and i argued that to the death. did i have a ton of stats and things to prove you wrong, nope. But i sure as hell was confident in my opinion and we'll see how tanev does. I just dont project him as a top 4 D on the top team in the league

And regarding Schroeder, i didn't say he wouldn't make it because of that, i said his numbers are low for a player of his size and style of play, typically they are much higher so it does seem like an uphill battle for him, people said thats crazy


Last edited by Pseudonymous: 12-11-2012 at 11:30 PM.
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12-12-2012, 02:23 AM
  #404
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People use stats far too much. Last season we had people making the absurd case that Malhotra was playing well because of Corsi ratings and such. Even by his own admission Malhotra had a terrible season and yet somehow people conjured up some statistical crap that had him a valuable contributor to the team.

It might be the stats are helpful in a static sport such as baseball where every pitching situation can be adjusted to some principles of predictability. (And it might be noted here that the word stats is derived from the word static suggesting the stop-time nature of statistical information) In hockey there is too much motion and flow to make the sport amenable to such detailed statistical analysis. In the end, I believe, people revert to stats to get some sort of definitive way of settling an argument when no such definitive standard exist.

To judge a player you can't IMO just make up a bunch of statistical categories (which, at best, are arbitrarily selected) and say that the aggregate of these somehow defines a player. Whatís worst (and dishonest)is when people cherry pick stats to prove a point And you see some people doing this far too often. There are people on the main board who have considered the flawed use of statistics thoroughly and do a much better job that I can do in showing the fallacies of things such things as Corsi ratings

I believe that ultimately you judge a player by watching him play. If you have any sort of trained eye at all you can get far more from this than by looking at a stats sheet. Maybe you might look at stats to confirm or check your observations but primarily you have to go on what you have seen. In doing this you can factor in so many other variables than any statistical analysis could. Really it is the kind of holistic system that people use in judging many things - like essays in school, figure skating competitions, etc... This comes down to the experience and the understanding of the observer and is, of course, open to opinion. But in the final analysis that is what you have to accept. Trying to refer to stats to assert your opinion is again trying to finding certainty where there is none. Moreover, the use of particular stats narrows rather than broadens the scope of the analysis (and often is designed to come up with the conclusion you wanted in the first place)

As far as Kassian and Schroeder go I watched them a lot this year and have the following observations.
Kassain to me is a little like Bertuzzi was. There is tremendous potential amplitude to his game. But he can be very frustrating. Seems distracted or unfocused at times and there is obvious inconsistency in his play. This how Bertuzzi was and why, I guess, the Islanders gave up on him. It wasnít until Bertuzzi was in his mid to late 20ís that he blossomed. Before that there were all kinds of questions about Bertuzziís consistency and commitment. To me, the key to Kassainís development is patience. It is just going to take time for a player like Kassain to develop the high end power game he seems potentially to have. The touch, the skating and the vision seem to be there but it will take time to integrate those elements into a complete package.

With Schroeder I think there is much more doubt. Heís a player who had high end skill from a young age. Iím not sure now that there is that much more potential for Schroeder to improve upon those skills. What might happen is that he gets more savvy or cleverness in his game so he can better exploit those skills. However, that is really going to have to improve for him to overcome the size issue. I think he is comparable to a player like David Desharnais Ė a player that has to finds ways of slipping in and out of the play to create offensive chances. Yet , even in the case of player like Desharnais, who can produce offense at the NHL level, you do wonder how good your team is if he is one of your top 6 players. At the momen t, Schroeder has not made a break through at the minor pro level and shown, in any sustained way, the kind of point producing play that he must do to establish NHL potential. Perhaps that will happen, perhaps not. Right now there are just too many games when he disappears or does not convert the chances he does have to create scoring. And that is most noticeable on the power play where he has, this season, been very poor. As a result, in recent games he has got very limited time on the PP. I think there has been improvement in Schroederís 5 on 5 play but he is not going to make it as good positional player. He needs to produce offense and especially on the power play. His inability to do this at a high enough level is troubling and has to create some doubts about his long range potential.

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Old
12-12-2012, 02:34 AM
  #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orcatown View Post
People use stats far too much. Last season we had people making the absurd case that Malhotra was playing well because of Corsi ratings and such. Even by his own admission Malhotra had a terrible season and yet somehow people conjured up some statistical crap that had him a valuable contributor to the team.

I find people bring up stats on Malhotra to discredit Kesler's contribution

agree with you, you gotta watch the games to make judgements

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12-12-2012, 08:20 AM
  #406
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It's pretty simple pseudonymous01 and orcatown.


When you say anything negative about a canuck player or prospect. People here don't like it even if it's right.

It has nothing to do with stats or no stats.

Manny plays terrible, everybody knows it, it was horrible. Yet you need to check his corsi stats.

Schroeder a 5'9 center, with no physical game and likely only makes it as a top 6 forward in the nhl, can't even shine offensively in the A. But you can't criticize him or its stat scouting.

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12-12-2012, 09:09 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
Schroeder a 5'9 center, with no physical game and likely only makes it as a top 6 forward in the nhl, can't even shine offensively in the A. But you can't criticize him or its stat scouting.
He's playing as well or better than other top prospects at ES statistically — I posted the stats on the previous page. So if we're going to criticize his stats, let's at least consider where the problem is: PP. Well, none of the other guys that have typically been good PP players are putting up any PP points either. Ebbett has 1 PP point all season and he was dynamite in the past.

Hell, even with his lack of production on PP, he's got 12 points in last 16 games at ES which is not far from PPG. He had a dry spell the first five games and since then he's been leading the Wolves in scoring. And all this is with Wolves being the 5th lowest scoring team in the league and without playing with Kassian or Sterling, the other two top scorers.

And before you go agreeing with orcatown, maybe read what he had to say about Hodgson before he made the NHL. It was the exact same narrative as for Schroeder (replace too small with too slow).

None of this makes him a lock to make the NHL, let alone contribute there. I just find the argument that Schroeder has been underwhelming to be extremely dubious considering he's 1 point behind Sterling, leading the team in ES scoring, leading the team in goals, and doing that while not getting any ice-time with the other 2 top scorers.


Last edited by Tiranis: 12-12-2012 at 09:25 AM.
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12-12-2012, 09:23 AM
  #408
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^ I think the point is that opinions are nothing without context (duh). You can say prospect X is poor because he isn't producing, but then what is the team producing? Or that he's too small, but is he taking Dzone draws? Is he being sheltered in any way?



I've ripped on prospects here on multiple occasions. Tiranis knows that I've questioned the scouting, even compared it to DET many times, concluding that it falls well short. But I also understand the environment in which these prospects exist. CHI is not a high scoring team. They weren't when Cody was there either. Yet, he comes up and scores at a top6 rate playing 3rd line minutes... So you have to question the environment.



For Kassian, I have no doubt he'll be up with the big club when the season starts. Schroeder will be up for a time, while Kesler is out. Both will show us how much more improved they are in the _NHL_context_. Only then will we really know what they are truly capable of. And for the sake of argument, I'm betting Schroeder shows better offensively than he has to this point.

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12-12-2012, 11:23 AM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
For Kassian, I have no doubt he'll be up with the big club when the season starts. Schroeder will be up for a time, while Kesler is out. Both will show us how much more improved they are in the _NHL_context_. Only then will we really know what they are truly capable of. And for the sake of argument, I'm betting Schroeder shows better offensively than he has to this point.
I don't think it will take until next october for Kesler to be ready.


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12-12-2012, 12:22 PM
  #410
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A huge reason why our top prospects aren't blossoming into point producers at the AHL level has a lot to do with how terrible the power play is. I like to think we have a pretty strong unit on paper which woul be completed by a Jensen sliding in wing, but for whatever reason it's not working out.

This is more concerning to me than individual stats, I want my prospects coming up ready and prepared to dominate teams on the power play, not learn to refine that aspect of their while adjusting to the NHL

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12-12-2012, 12:32 PM
  #411
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I think a big thing hurting the team on the power play is that there aren't really great puck movers on the back end. Tanev and Connauton are both decent, but a true PMD back there with offensive instincts boosts everybody on the powerplay. There's exceptions where you have a great QB at center like the Canucks do, but Henrik benefits from having great offensive defencemen too.

Coaching obviously isn't helping, but there's only so far you can go if you don't have the right tools.

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12-12-2012, 02:52 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by deckercky View Post
I think a big thing hurting the team on the power play is that there aren't really great puck movers on the back end. Tanev and Connauton are both decent, but a true PMD back there with offensive instincts boosts everybody on the powerplay. There's exceptions where you have a great QB at center like the Canucks do, but Henrik benefits from having great offensive defencemen too.

Coaching obviously isn't helping, but there's only so far you can go if you don't have the right tools.
Hopefully McNally decides to turn pro - he'd be a big help on the PP.

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12-12-2012, 08:39 PM
  #413
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Kassian Sometimes big players take a knock on their effort level because people forget that 30-40 seconds before that lazy backcheck the guy had screamed in on the forecheck, slammed a 220 lb defender into the corner and won 3-4 physical battles along the end boards singlehandedly. Thats a LOT of work and energy using both the upper and lower body that often goes unnoticed. As his conditioning improves he will be a force. He actually makes a lot of good plays in the neutral zone. I haven't had a problem with his work ethic.

Schroeder Has impressed me this year for the most part. His low PPG seems to me to be more of a result of the game we are asking him to play and the quality of his linemates, especially on the PP. For me, he has earned a look.

Tanev Looks good to me. If he can find his offensive game he could fill the hole beside Edler one day.

Connaughton Also looks NHL ready to me.

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12-13-2012, 12:49 AM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Whale View Post
Kassian Sometimes big players take a knock on their effort level because people forget that 30-40 seconds before that lazy backcheck the guy had screamed in on the forecheck, slammed a 220 lb defender into the corner and won 3-4 physical battles along the end boards singlehandedly. Thats a LOT of work and energy using both the upper and lower body that often goes unnoticed. As his conditioning improves he will be a force. He actually makes a lot of good plays in the neutral zone. I haven't had a problem with his work ethic.

Schroeder Has impressed me this year for the most part. His low PPG seems to me to be more of a result of the game we are asking him to play and the quality of his linemates, especially on the PP. For me, he has earned a look.

Tanev Looks good to me. If he can find his offensive game he could fill the hole beside Edler one day.

Connaughton Also looks NHL ready to me.
I think many would agree with me when I say I completely disagree. I do agree with you on Kassian , but there are times when he disappears for entire periods.

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12-13-2012, 02:15 PM
  #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whale View Post
Kassian Sometimes big players take a knock on their effort level because people forget that 30-40 seconds before that lazy backcheck the guy had screamed in on the forecheck, slammed a 220 lb defender into the corner and won 3-4 physical battles along the end boards singlehandedly. Thats a LOT of work and energy using both the upper and lower body that often goes unnoticed. As his conditioning improves he will be a force. He actually makes a lot of good plays in the neutral zone. I haven't had a problem with his work ethic.

Schroeder Has impressed me this year for the most part. His low PPG seems to me to be more of a result of the game we are asking him to play and the quality of his linemates, especially on the PP. For me, he has earned a look.

Tanev Looks good to me. If he can find his offensive game he could fill the hole beside Edler one day.

Connaughton Also looks NHL ready to me.
I agree with all but Connaughton where I couldn't disagree more. I've watched most of the games and he barely contributes to this AHL team there hasn't been anywhere near the amount of offense to make up for his huge defensive and decision making gaffs. Right now the only way I see him in the NHL is as a call up and only because after Tanev there is nothing else.

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12-13-2012, 05:19 PM
  #416
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Schroeder this season has shown to me he is who everyone was talking about at the 2009 NHL Entry Draft. Of course it always takes small, skilled forwards a bit longer to develop (St. Louis, Briere, etc.) but they are gravy once they make the show.

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12-13-2012, 06:31 PM
  #417
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Schroeder this season has shown to me he is who everyone was talking about at the 2009 NHL Entry Draft. Of course it always takes small, skilled forwards a bit longer to develop (St. Louis, Briere, etc.) but they are gravy once they make the show.
Schroeder isn't anywhere near as talent as those two players. Like, it isn't even close.

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12-13-2012, 07:03 PM
  #418
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With Kesler's set back Schroeder will get a look in the NHL if there is a season.

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12-13-2012, 07:07 PM
  #419
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Looks like the feed tonight is in French...

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12-13-2012, 07:09 PM
  #420
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Anyone else not getting any sound on the stream?

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12-13-2012, 07:10 PM
  #421
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Quote:
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Schroeder isn't anywhere near as talent as those two players. Like, it isn't even close.
Who ever said it was? That was not really a comparison more than an example.

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12-13-2012, 07:18 PM
  #422
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Connauton might be hurt..

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12-13-2012, 07:24 PM
  #423
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Team looking better today. Better breakouts, using their speed nicely, going to the net with a bit more authority. Looks like they worked on some stuff in the time they had since their last game.

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12-13-2012, 07:33 PM
  #424
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anyone able to hook a non internet saavy dude to a stream? PM me.

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12-13-2012, 07:36 PM
  #425
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Kassian and Schroeder showing some great skill (not on the same line or shift). Both almost set up a goal.

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