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Better hockey major junior vs CIS

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Old
11-16-2012, 11:05 AM
  #51
Drummer
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A comparison like this is hard to make given the varying degree of talent on each team, in each league.

This thread has also crossed into a CIS/NCAA comparison.

I believe the OUA CIS teams are a bit weaker overall because of the OUA schools reluctance to offer AFAs for Hockey athletes, something that CW and AUS do without hesitation. This reduces the number of CHL over-age'ers from considering OUA teams (my belief, not a known fact)

I would put my money on the CIS team to win a game or series against a CHL team. This is just a general observation - would STU win over Kitchener? - probably not. Would UNB? probably. Top CIS teams are CHL heavy and with 4 days/week to practice - you get a better cohesive team (not to mention the age difference 18-19 vs 23-24).
I would put my money on the NCAA team in a CIS/NCAA game. The NCAA team have similar ages to the CHL team, but play a different game compared to CIS and CHL (more speed, less hitting and size)

I'm a UNB fan, and they have been used in other comments posted here. UNB has a 23 player roster with an average age of 23.5. 22 of them are from the CHL and one from the NCAA (Salituro). They have 8 players who have been drafted (Fullerton, Swan, Wudrick, Wright, Fillier, LaCosta, Shutron and Denny). One player has played in the NHL (LaCosta) and four in the AHL (LaCosta, Kidd, Denny and Desnoyers) and three others with pro experience (Wright, Lynes and Wudrick). 12 of them are former CHL Captains (Swan, Braes, MacNeil, Pridham, Wright, Critchlow, Robertson, Carroll, Fillier, Shutron, Culligan and Nesbitt). So, a team like this would fare pretty well against an average to lower CHL team. The top-end talent is not as good as a CHL team (who might have a 1st round pick), but the bottom half is a lot better. This is also why UNB has fared well against NCAA teams.

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11-16-2012, 01:23 PM
  #52
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They're also older and more physically mature. Top end CHL talent are destined for NHL, AHL careers unless their development stops or is stunted in some way. But the lower end of even the top CHL teams fill the same roles on CIS rosters...a la Jordan Clendenning, Cam Critchlow, etc.

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Old
11-20-2012, 06:40 PM
  #53
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Drummer you took the words right out of my mouth. UNB, along with other schools have many talented players, most of whom came from the CHL.

I saw them play BC this fall, and I have to say that it was definitely not a 6-0 game. BC scored a 'cheesy' goal to go up 1-0 in the first. Then the flood gates opened up and UNB completely lost all momentum.

Anyways, I'm just saying that people shouldn't be so quick to overlook the CIS. It is still a good brand of hockey.

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11-21-2012, 01:24 PM
  #54
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You can argue which is better 'till the cows come home.
Major Jr is higher profile.
That's why Sportsnet has Friday Night Hockey featuring CHL teams and every game of the Memorial Cup.
CIS doesn't have a game of the week on TV and only a couple games of the U Cup.
If a sports network could sell ad time don't ya think..........
Look at the sponsors for CHL and the sponsors for CIS? The don't care about the hockey just how do they reach their market
Better is an opinion, Money follows the market

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12-12-2012, 06:06 PM
  #55
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Alberta 4 Team Canada 1 - hopefully this helps put that debate to rest.

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12-12-2012, 09:10 PM
  #56
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Players that weren't dressed: Nugent-Hopkins, Scheiflie, Huberdeau, D. Hamilton, Reilly, Harrington, Strome, Danault, Jenner, Brett Richtie and Charles Hudon. If this game actually meant anything, you think these guys would have made a difference. Don't know why people are all pumped about Alberta's win. Does it help their CIS Top 10? No. Was the game meant to showcase the CIS? Sadly, no. Dosen't put the debate to rest, just adds to it that last years members and 1st year locks were not in the lineup.

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12-12-2012, 09:26 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnipeShow91 View Post
Players that weren't dressed: Nugent-Hopkins, Scheiflie, Huberdeau, D. Hamilton, Reilly, Harrington, Strome, Danault, Jenner, Brett Richtie and Charles Hudon. If this game actually meant anything, you think these guys would have made a difference. Don't know why people are all pumped about Alberta's win. Does it help their CIS Top 10? No. Was the game meant to showcase the CIS? Sadly, no. Dosen't put the debate to rest, just adds to it that last years members and 1st year locks were not in the lineup.
The discussion originated with an argument I had with a friend. The argument was that on average a CIS team would beat a major junior team. It was never that a CIS team would beat a major junior all star team. Even with the heavy hitters canada had out of the line up that was still a great line up of jr players. I think Alberta showed CIS is great hockey even without the high end skill. I also think it puts the argument to rest.

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12-12-2012, 10:10 PM
  #58
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The only thing that will end this "debate" is for CHL teams to play CIS teams in a 5 game series for example. It is an apples-orange thing and wont be solved on this Board. i'm certain the papers will say something similar to what Snipe has said: Team Canada didn't dress all these players, etc. Which is a valid point. Out of the 20-odd players on Team Canada tonight, half of them will be cut. So, not really the cream of the crop.........

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12-12-2012, 11:30 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AUS Fan View Post
The only thing that will end this "debate" is for CHL teams to play CIS teams in a 5 game series for example. It is an apples-orange thing and wont be solved on this Board. i'm certain the papers will say something similar to what Snipe has said: Team Canada didn't dress all these players, etc. Which is a valid point. Out of the 20-odd players on Team Canada tonight, half of them will be cut. So, not really the cream of the crop.........
20 of the top 30 players in the CHL were on the team. That is still much better than any regular CHL team.

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12-12-2012, 11:42 PM
  #60
Rob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thook View Post
The discussion originated with an argument I had with a friend. The argument was that on average a CIS team would beat a major junior team. It was never that a CIS team would beat a major junior all star team. Even with the heavy hitters canada had out of the line up that was still a great line up of jr players. I think Alberta showed CIS is great hockey even without the high end skill. I also think it puts the argument to rest.
This.

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Old
12-13-2012, 01:44 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AUS Fan View Post
The only thing that will end this "debate" is for CHL teams to play CIS teams in a 5 game series for example. It is an apples-orange thing and wont be solved on this Board. i'm certain the papers will say something similar to what Snipe has said: Team Canada didn't dress all these players, etc. Which is a valid point. Out of the 20-odd players on Team Canada tonight, half of them will be cut. So, not really the cream of the crop.........
Out of the 20-odd players, about 15 of them would have made the team if it wasn't for the NHL lockout. I think Alberta proved how good university hockey is.

But it's always tougher to win when you're an all-star team against an experienced team. I remember when the OUA all-stars faced Team Canada two years ago. They lost 6-2.

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12-13-2012, 03:14 PM
  #62
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But it's always tougher to win when you're an all-star team against an experienced team. I remember when the OUA all-stars faced Team Canada two years ago. They lost 6-2.
How very very true. This topic, whether it be the NCAA vs CHL or CHL vs CIS has always intrigued me mainly because of peoples' perceptions.

I remember way back, during the first lengthy NHL lock-out, watching an all-star of NHL players taking on an IHL team, the Detroit Vipers. Guess who won....yeah that's right, the IHL team. Now no one in their right mind would ever suggest that the I was greater than the NHL because of this result but yet posters are using this one game as the definitive barometer of what league is better.

Consider for a moment that this is not a team playing against the UofA (who by the way are an awesome program and could compete against any NCAA or CHL team) but a collection of individual players trying to make a team and from what I saw on the internet, that is exactly how they played.

Yet Alberta did not dominate and were actually out-shot in the game and I would argue that the Canadian team actually had the better scoring chances.

If you insist on using such games as a testament to the superiority of the CIS over the CHL, then what can we make of the CIS' 2-0 loss
today???

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12-13-2012, 04:44 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VOB View Post
If you insist on using such games as a testament to the superiority of the CIS over the CHL, then what can we make of the CIS' 2-0 loss
today???
THANK YOU! Exactly the point I was going to say. Because there is superiority cause it is comparing apples to oranges, the CIS and CHL. I still went on with my day knowing Alberta beat Canada, and I will go on with my night knowing Canada beat Calgary/Mount Royal/Lethbridge. Its a nothing game, so lets leave it at that!

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12-14-2012, 02:07 PM
  #64
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Personally, I put as much stock into Alberta beating Canada as I do Canada beating the rep team from Cal/Let/MR. If anything, I'd like to think the Alberta win over Canada has shed some light on the quality that is CIS hockey.

Somebody already said it, but until we see a five or seven game series between the likes of Alberta vs. Kamloops or Portland, the debate will always continue.

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12-14-2012, 03:04 PM
  #65
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I can say, with confidence, that if the Edmonton Oil Kings were to play the Alberta Golden Bears, or the Saskatoon Blades were to play the U of S Huskies, or the Manitoba Bisons were to play the Brandon Wheaties or the Calgary Hitmen played the Calgary Dinos, those particular CIS teams would win 80-90 per cent of the time. These CIS teams consist of mostly forwards who were top-6 on their respective WHL teams and D-men who were top-4 and, for the most part, players who were good enough to be one of just 3 "overagers" on their WHL teams. Logically, it stands to reason that the collective sum of parts on the CIS team would be stronger than the WHL counter-parts, especially when considering that the CIS players are that much older and stronger. You are delusional and possibly an idiot to think otherwise.

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Old
12-14-2012, 03:59 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnipeShow91 View Post
Players that weren't dressed: Nugent-Hopkins, Scheiflie, Huberdeau, D. Hamilton, Reilly, Harrington, Strome, Danault, Jenner, Brett Richtie and Charles Hudon. If this game actually meant anything, you think these guys would have made a difference. Don't know why people are all pumped about Alberta's win. Does it help their CIS Top 10? No. Was the game meant to showcase the CIS? Sadly, no. Dosen't put the debate to rest, just adds to it that last years members and 1st year locks were not in the lineup.
couldnt it be argued that with an nHL season, some or all of those players wouldnt be available?

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Old
12-14-2012, 06:09 PM
  #67
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couldnt it be argued that with an nHL season, some or all of those players wouldnt be available?
True enough. At least 6 players otherwise not available will be in the lineup for TC.

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Old
12-17-2012, 09:19 AM
  #68
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The last time the Alberta Golden Bears played the Edmonton Oil Kings they beat them 10-1 and outshot them 54-18. This was back in December 1972.
I watched the second and third periods of the Team Canada World JR team vs. Golden Bears, and Alberta was beteer.
I received texts from one current NHL GM, one former GM and one NHL Head Scout in the first of that game (i was on the air, hosting Oilers Now) and they all said the Bears were dominating.
Granted Team Canada sat several of the their top guns, but Alberta was also without their #1 Centre and two other top 9 FWDS, and a top 4 D.
The Bears also hit multiple posts/crossbars during the game and could have easily won 6-1. Both teams had a goalie give up a bad goal.

Now here's the deal!
CIS teams should beat a Major Junior team, or a World Junior team.
The players in the CIS are older, mostly graduates of the CHL and have a 4 to 2 practice to game ratio.
A well run CIS team will play with better structure and process then a team does in Junior because a University team has more practice time to implement their "game-plan", etc.

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Old
12-17-2012, 10:30 AM
  #69
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People are forgetting the junior team that played was really just thrown together many having not played together before while the Alberta team is actually a team that plays together all season. There is more familiarity and better chemistry. Same logic as why the NTDP team routinly win tournaments against Nations with quickly assembled rosters regardless of talent.

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