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NHL Lockout XXVIII: Don't worry about the lockout. Let me worry about blank.

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Old
12-12-2012, 10:19 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Nobody is saying they'd strike at the beginning of the season.
I must have misread a couple posts, that's what I get for scanning through quickly

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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
'play under' or sign a 1 year extension?

If this is similiar to other situations, I don't think the 'play under the old CBA' would be effective as the NLRB would not enforce the no strike clause.

Would they have been willing to sign an extension to the cba? I don't know. I don't think the NHL would sign it anyways since they already have so many teams losing money and an increase of 6m or so of the floor, midpoint, and ceiling would just make it worse
I'd imagine under either circumstance the owners would only do it on the condition the lockout/strike article is enforced.

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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Cheesesteak, made a thread about it on the business board.

We shall see what people think would happen
Sweet. I'll go watch.

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12-12-2012, 10:19 PM
  #177
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I often wonder what the hell goes on in those negotiation rooms. You meet with federal mediators for 6 ****ing hours with nothing more to do but split the difference on CBA length and contract length. And they come out and say the same damn thing we've heard for months, "no progress was made". Really? You were working on this for 6 ****ing hours and literally got nothing done? How much weed was being smoked in there exactly?

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Old
12-12-2012, 10:22 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
I honestly don't think Fehr would have struck had he been allowed to play under the old CBA. But that doesn't solve anything. All we'll have is Fehr stalling until next summer. Its no accident that he didn't start negotiating earlier. We had that quote from a player who said (and I'm paraphrasing), that Fehr told them that negotiations is 1 year of stalling and two weeks of poker. Its exactly what he has done, and he would have taken us the brink next year as well if they were allowed to play this year. What's gained by the owners by delaying the process a year?
Exactly, why is this question being asked? If he is stalling while games are being missed he will surely continue that path as long as he can.

I like the poker comment, I especially like when he has called for mediators twice while both times basically doing nothing with it......just more pr for the players to chew on.

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12-12-2012, 10:23 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
The players need to google "cost benefit analysis".

Throwing away 600M for an extra 89M is terrible business.
Funny how nobody ever applies that math to the owners though...granted, probably not all of them are throwing away money and most can afford to anyway but still, both sides are long past the point of diminishing returns.

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12-12-2012, 10:25 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
The blame is always going to be on the players, because the players have been less-than-sensitive with their "public outcry" tweets and such, and that's rubbed a lot of fans the wrong way. Of course, if owners weren't under a gag order, we'd be hearing the same stuff from them (ala the "cattle" comment).

Choosing which side to blame right now is ridiculous. There's no need to chose. There's plenty of blame to go around and both sides have more than their share of it.
Well said. At the end of the day lining up behind either side seems like a pretty ridiculous position. Neither Bettman nor Fehr are losing any sleep over the fans. A lot of the blind support of one side over the other makes no sense to me.

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12-12-2012, 10:27 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
Funny how nobody ever applies that math to the owners though...granted, probably not all of them are throwing away money and most can afford to anyway but still, both sides are long past the point of diminishing returns.
Based on the offers from both sides I think even a lot of the teams who were losing money would now be profitable even under the PA's offer.So they are throwing away money too.

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12-12-2012, 10:28 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Because there's nothing for Fehr to gain for his players with a strike before the playoffs.

Are the players going to go on strike to Give Up concessions?

Come on. Be for real.

You go on strike to WIN CONCESSIONS--- not to lose less concessions.
The players have given up 600M for an extra 89M so far.

And you on't think that they would go on strike after getting their last pay check for the year because it would hurt HRR?

The player's actions don't back up your assumptions Bob.

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12-12-2012, 10:28 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Because there's nothing for Fehr to gain for his players with a strike before the playoffs.

Are the players going to go on strike to Give Up concessions?

Come on. Be for real.

You go on strike to WIN CONCESSIONS--- not to lose less concessions.
Hmmmm....funny, I seem to remember a certain union boss leading a union to a strike just before the playoffs before. Obviously you don't follow the MLB.
Fehr is a ****ing idiot and has already lost 100's of millions of dollars for the people he represents. He's a joke. His mentality is it's bad for owners to lock employees out, but it's okay for employees to strike. He's a ****ing hypocrite, and his old school mentality has lead the players to losses they will never get back.


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12-12-2012, 10:30 PM
  #184
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Renaud Lavoie on RDS tonight:

- ''Nothing happened today because the league knows it has Fehr and the players right where it wants them, in a very vulnerable position.''

- ''As long as it stays that way, I don't know how the PA changes the current situation and puts the onus on the owners. They've given the NHL 50/50 split, accepted 300 M on make whole...now they'll fight for 5 year term limits? It's normal to be mad, but the reality is that fighting on this issue only...they'll lose. Because there are hundreds of millions, 1.7 B or 1.8 B that could NOT be in the players pockets this year. Are they really ready to fight that battle to not have a 5 year term limit? It's where this is at. It's a very important question the PA must ask themselves.''

- ''The league does not need owners in the meetings, does not need to make the players a new offer...the players are in a vulnerable position and they can't escape at this stage...there will be eventually a panic movement inside the PA's ranks...and the owners know the players are stuck in that vulnerable position, that's why the owners won't move further and at a certain point a vote on the owners offer is inevitable.''

- ''Daly told me tonight that the league would gladly submit a written proposal to the PA for it go to a vote.''

- ''Lots of damage control going on inside the PA. Players in the meetings and PA reps are trying hard to sell the message they can't accept 5 year term limits, can't accept amnesty buyouts counting in make whole, etc''

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12-12-2012, 10:32 PM
  #185
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The NHL is broken. The intensity of the regular season games is gone. The pre-1990 Habs-Bruins games were EPIC. Jay Miller. Chris Nilan. Ray Bourque. Lafleur. Neely.

It was great when teams were free to pay their players and keep them around long-term. Unrestricted free agency has killed the game. The players usually don't have any loyalty to the team that drafted, developed and cheered them.

The playoffs are still good. But the NHL regular season is a snooze.

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12-12-2012, 10:33 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by averyrule View Post
I often wonder what the hell goes on in those negotiation rooms. You meet with federal mediators for 6 ****ing hours with nothing more to do but split the difference on CBA length and contract length. And they come out and say the same damn thing we've heard for months, "no progress was made". Really? You were working on this for 6 ****ing hours and literally got nothing done? How much weed was being smoked in there exactly?
This is bang on and I've said this multiple times. Something just doesn't add up. A month or two ago, sure it made sense that they didn't even want to hear each other out. But now, when you're THIS god damn close? Six hours is a long time, I think any of us who work a full day or study for that amount of time can say how productive one can be, yet professionals who have every reason in the world to stay there and figure it out and yet they get less done than a pig in mud.

Not only that, they're paying these mediators for their time and they still get nothing out of it.

I'll say it again, it really does make your head hurt to think about it.

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12-12-2012, 10:36 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
The NHL is broken. The intensity of the regular season games is gone. The pre-1990 Habs-Bruins games were EPIC. Jay Miller. Chris Nilan. Ray Bourque. Lafleur. Neely.

It was great when teams were free to pay their players and keep them around long-term. Unrestricted free agency has killed the game. The players usually don't have any loyalty to the team that drafted, developed and cheered them.

The playoffs are still good. But the NHL regular season is a snooze.
That's not true, there were a ton of great games in the regular season the past few years. Watch where you direct your distaste cause that comment is just not accurate.

I was at a Sens/Panthers game this time last year that the Sens won 4-3 in OT. They had been leading 2-1 and 3-2 only to see the Panthers tie the game in last minute with the extra attacker. The Sens were rolling at the time and came out really hungry in OT. Karlsson had a gorgeous goal with a rocket from the point and the shots were something like 40-35.

That's just one example off the top of my head.....

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Old
12-12-2012, 10:40 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
You're making things up.

For one, there's no rule that says there needs to be a lockout or strike.

So the idea that we have lockouts to avoid strikes is bunk. 100 percent bunk.

Going on strike before the playoffs would cause some urgency among owners.

One things we've seen from owners is this: Without urgency, we lose tons and tons and tons of hockey games.

With urgency, they deal.

So if you're a hockey fan who wants to watch NHL hockey, you're better off with a strike than a lockout.
How is a strike better than a lockout for all fans? Seeing games that are supposed to count towards the big show at the end...the playoffs...and then the players going on strike is JUST AS BAD as not seeing the pointless games early on. You're the 1 talking about leverage and urgency...it's not ALL about the players. There was urgency on the owners part to avoid the lockout but the PA wouldn't hear about it. Don't you remember how it would be a distraction to negotiate during the season last year? Why wouldn't it be a distraction to negotiate through this season if the owners were willing to? Or would the distraction end when the players went on strike?

Both sides want to maximize leverage and the Owners were in the better position to do so. However had Fehr started negotiations when the league requested we would likely have been playing in Sept or shortly after.

You are right about 1 thing...if the league cancels the season Fehr will kill something. If history is any indication it'll be about 240 player careers.

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Old
12-12-2012, 10:42 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
Funny how nobody ever applies that math to the owners though...granted, probably not all of them are throwing away money and most can afford to anyway but still, both sides are long past the point of diminishing returns.
Do you honestly think that these billionaire businessmen doesn't know the cost/benefit of the lockout?

The long term benefits for the owners, who have much longer careers than the players, greatly out weigh losing half a season's revenue.

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12-12-2012, 10:46 PM
  #190
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I see once again there is failure to make a deal, man these people really don't care about the sport do they

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Old
12-12-2012, 10:47 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Do you honestly think that these billionaire businessmen doesn't know the cost/benefit of the lockout?

The long term benefits for the owners, who have much longer careers than the players, greatly out weigh losing half a season's revenue.
That's a huge factor that isn't brought up enough. Right now the players are holding out for the sake of Fehr's ego. Of the major sports, they officially have the dumbest players.

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12-12-2012, 10:50 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Renaud Lavoie on RDS tonight:

- ''Nothing happened today because the league knows it has Fehr and the players right where it wants them, in a very vulnerable position.''

- ''As long as it stays that way, I don't know how the PA changes the current situation and puts the onus on the owners. They've given the NHL 50/50 split, accepted 300 M on make whole...now they'll fight for 5 year term limits? It's normal to be mad, but the reality is that fighting on this issue only...they'll lose. Because there are hundreds of millions, 1.7 B or 1.8 B that could NOT be in the players pockets this year. Are they really ready to fight that battle to not have a 5 year term limit? It's where this is at. It's a very important question the PA must ask themselves.''

- ''The league does not need owners in the meetings, does not need to make the players a new offer...the players are in a vulnerable position and they can't escape at this stage...there will be eventually a panic movement inside the PA's ranks...and the owners know the players are stuck in that vulnerable position, that's why the owners won't move further and at a certain point a vote on the owners offer is inevitable.''

- ''Daly told me tonight that the league would gladly submit a written proposal to the PA for it go to a vote.''

- ''Lots of damage control going on inside the PA. Players in the meetings and PA reps are trying hard to sell the message they can't accept 5 year term limits, can't accept amnesty buyouts counting in make whole, etc''
Dependable, as that's from Lavoie.

That's good news to me.

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12-12-2012, 10:51 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
That's a huge factor that isn't brought up enough. Right now the players are holding out for the sake of Fehr's ego. Of the major sports, they officially have the dumbest players.
Yes. I'm sure the players continue to lose money because they don't want Fehr to feel a little sad.

I imagine enough of them believe the fight is still worth fighting, or we'd see a revolt. If it goes on long enough maybe we will. Hell, "long enough" could be in the next few days.

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12-12-2012, 10:57 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Yes. I'm sure the players continue to lose money because they don't want Fehr to feel a little sad.

I imagine enough of them believe the fight is still worth fighting, or we'd see a revolt. If it goes on long enough maybe we will. Hell, "long enough" could be in the next few days.
They're brainwashed, lol. He's coached them well. What are they fighting for at this point?

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12-12-2012, 10:58 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Renaud Lavoie on RDS tonight:

- ''Nothing happened today because the league knows it has Fehr and the players right where it wants them, in a very vulnerable position.''

- ''As long as it stays that way, I don't know how the PA changes the current situation and puts the onus on the owners. They've given the NHL 50/50 split, accepted 300 M on make whole...now they'll fight for 5 year term limits? It's normal to be mad, but the reality is that fighting on this issue only...they'll lose. Because there are hundreds of millions, 1.7 B or 1.8 B that could NOT be in the players pockets this year. Are they really ready to fight that battle to not have a 5 year term limit? It's where this is at. It's a very important question the PA must ask themselves.''

- ''The league does not need owners in the meetings, does not need to make the players a new offer...the players are in a vulnerable position and they can't escape at this stage...there will be eventually a panic movement inside the PA's ranks...and the owners know the players are stuck in that vulnerable position, that's why the owners won't move further and at a certain point a vote on the owners offer is inevitable.''

- ''Daly told me tonight that the league would gladly submit a written proposal to the PA for it go to a vote.''

- ''Lots of damage control going on inside the PA. Players in the meetings and PA reps are trying hard to sell the message they can't accept 5 year term limits, can't accept amnesty buyouts counting in make whole, etc''
So pretty much a lot of the players are starting to see through the Fehr bull****.

Edit: Just to add, the players were ready to take the last NHL proposal to vote until Fehr stepped in and miscalculated to hold out because the players could get more from the owners. I'm sure after today, there are more players in the "bring it to vote" camp.

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12-12-2012, 11:01 PM
  #196
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It's like the South Park episode where Canada goes on strike but in the end they only get some coupons to Bennigan's.

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12-12-2012, 11:02 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
Funny how nobody ever applies that math to the owners though...granted, probably not all of them are throwing away money and most can afford to anyway but still, both sides are long past the point of diminishing returns.
Not really, if there's no deal this year, then the owners won't have to "compensate" players for 2012-13. This probably knocks off $150M (from the $300M) in "make whole" payments on a final agreement.

If the owners cancel the season, it's about the same $ hit that they would take from accepting the players offer (it could even be better, depending on the evolution of the extra risk they'd take on accepting that offer).

On the other hand, players stand to lose $1.6B plus about $150M included in the "make whole". Granted, they've actually already lost $600M, but they still stand to lose another $1.15B if the season is cancelled.

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12-12-2012, 11:03 PM
  #198
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So pretty much a lot of the players are starting to see through the Fehr bull****.
This is how I see it. The NHL will submit a " final best" proposal to the nhlpa and set a drop dead date for early January for this proposal. If the nhlpa does not vote and accept this proposal the nhl will take the entire make whole off the table and cancel the season around January 10th.

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12-12-2012, 11:03 PM
  #199
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This is bang on and I've said this multiple times. Something just doesn't add up. A month or two ago, sure it made sense that they didn't even want to hear each other out. But now, when you're THIS god damn close? Six hours is a long time, I think any of us who work a full day or study for that amount of time can say how productive one can be, yet professionals who have every reason in the world to stay there and figure it out and yet they get less done than a pig in mud.

Not only that, they're paying these mediators for their time and they still get nothing out of it.

I'll say it again, it really does make your head hurt to think about it.
I'm afraid that Donald has big plans for the Players, "blow this thing up" comes to mind.

The Owners want to control the contracts as 3-4 big money teams are driving up the costs for everyone else.

The Players can't get past the record revenue, big contracts that are handed out. They are greedy and listening to Donald. They ultimatly came out ahead on the last contract yet they think they are always giving, giving, and more giving for every expired CBA now and in the future.

There is money problems on a lot of Teams and the Owners want to fix this. They will not play until this is fixed, they thought they had it the last time but some Teams found loopholes. Players must understand the vast majority of teams can't thrive on this.

The best offer appears to be proposed by the NHL. Donald might sqeeze a little more but the greater good is being lost (this season).

The realinement that was rejected by the NHLPA pissed off the Owners and they want their control of the League back. The Owners must be allowed to Own.

So, Donald has the choice of playing ball or going to Court to blow this thing up. I think Donald likes to go to court and also be on T.V..

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12-12-2012, 11:09 PM
  #200
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If it's been said before I apologize but :

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

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