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NHL Lockout XXVIII: Don't worry about the lockout. Let me worry about blank.

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Old
12-12-2012, 11:09 PM
  #201
Erik Estrada
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Renaud Lavoie on RDS tonight:

- ''Daly told me tonight that the league would gladly submit a written proposal to the PA for it go to a vote.''

- ''Lots of damage control going on inside the PA. Players in the meetings and PA reps are trying hard to sell the message they can't accept 5 year term limits, can't accept amnesty buyouts counting in make whole, etc''
I'm not sure what the PA's procedure to make the membership vote... Is it 50%+1 of the Executive Board? Something else?... What's for sure is that the NHL can't get the players to vote on a proposal. and the PA can't get the owners to vote on a proposal either...

I wonder who his sources are that tell him there's "lots of damage control going on". He refers to players in the meetings... I assume this isn't speculation. He must have insider access to sources inside the PA? I wish we could get more details on this.

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12-12-2012, 11:09 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
They're brainwashed, lol. He's coached them well. What are they fighting for at this point?
I'm sure whenever Fehr plays his magical flute they line up and do a dance behind him


The fact is, there are players who aren't gaining anything right now. However, there are still enough players who believe they can gain...something, I guess, to hold out. Also, just like Bettman with the owners, Fehr has set up the union to give him more leeway and keep those other players from going against him and his supporters.

It's been ignored around here, but the same situation exists on the owners side. It wasn't long ago that we were discussing how a fairly small group of owners was reportedly perpetuating the lockout, while others would rather get the season started.

I guess Bettman and Jacobs have magical brainwashing flutes of their own?

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12-12-2012, 11:13 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by oilexport View Post
I'm afraid that Donald has big plans for the Players, "blow this thing up" comes to mind.

The Owners want to control the contracts as 3-4 big money teams are driving up the costs for everyone else.

The Players can't get past the record revenue, big contracts that are handed out. They are greedy and listening to Donald. They ultimatly came out ahead on the last contract yet they think they are always giving, giving, and more giving for every expired CBA now and in the future.

There is money problems on a lot of Teams and the Owners want to fix this. They will not play until this is fixed, they thought they had it the last time but some Teams found loopholes. Players must understand the vast majority of teams can't thrive on this.

The best offer appears to be proposed by the NHL. Donald might sqeeze a little more but the greater good is being lost (this season).

The realinement that was rejected by the NHLPA pissed off the Owners and they want their control of the League back. The Owners must be allowed to Own.

So, Donald has the choice of playing ball or going to Court to blow this thing up. I think Donald likes to go to court and also be on T.V..
Well I don't think the players have any intention of going to court otherwise we'd be there already. Its well passed the point where decertifying was a legitamate option for the players if they wanted to see a paycheque this year. Anyways i think pressure will mount to accept the deal from within the PA.

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Old
12-12-2012, 11:19 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
I'm sure whenever Fehr plays his magical flute they line up and do a dance behind him


The fact is, there are players who aren't gaining anything right now. However, there are still enough players who believe they can gain...something, I guess, to hold out. Also, just like Bettman with the owners, Fehr has set up the union to give him more leeway and keep those other players from going against him and his supporters.

It's been ignored around here, but the same situation exists on the owners side. It wasn't long ago that we were discussing how a fairly small group of owners was reportedly perpetuating the lockout, while others would rather get the season started.

I guess Bettman and Jacobs have magical brainwashing flutes of their own?
I don't think an owner can be influenced by a commissioner the same way a player can be influenced by a union boss. One is significantly more aware of the situation than the other. Didn't the owners vote 30-0 for the lockout?

At the end of the day, the owners are going to get everything they wanted. Fehr lost half a season+ for basically nothing.

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Old
12-12-2012, 11:20 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
If it's been said before I apologize but :

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

It is a rather fitting clip to what is transpiring at this junction.

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12-12-2012, 11:21 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
I see once again there is failure to make a deal, man these people really don't care about the sport do they
And 10's of millions of dollars down the drain every day. It's sickening.

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12-12-2012, 11:23 PM
  #207
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I was here earlier but may have missed some stuff today. So to be clear, the NHL didn't put an offer on the table today? The mediators simply asked the players if they'd accept the offer, and they said no?

Is there a confirmed day they're going to meet again? If not, are they planning to soon?

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Old
12-12-2012, 11:23 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
If it's been said before I apologize but :

What we have here is a failure to communicate.
No what we have here is a moral hazard. What benefits Donald Fehr does not line up with what benefits the players. Fehr does not get punished for missing 2 more months of games than the players needed to. But he does get media attention and the possibility of "winning" to stroke his ego

The situation at this point is a complete joke. When there was a $ difference, OK fine. But neither side should be hung up the contract issues. Fehr literally sabotaged a deal that the owners and players both wanted. The players need to ask themselves if Fehr is representing their best interests here. If Fehr got removed, they would wrap this deal up within a day, I guarantee it. There is 1 guy standing in the way of the lockout ending

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12-12-2012, 11:27 PM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
I guess Bettman and Jacobs have magical brainwashing flutes of their own?
I think it's a clarinet.


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Old
12-12-2012, 11:29 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
I don't think an owner can be influenced by a commissioner the same way a player can be influenced by a union boss. One is significantly more aware of the situation than the other. Didn't the owners vote 30-0 for the lockout?

At the end of the day, the owners are going to get everything they wanted. Fehr lost half a season+ for basically nothing.
Yet reportedly Snider wasn't all that happy with the lockout. He still couldn't do anything. I think Bettman actually has an easier time controlling/influencing a fairly small group of owners compared to Fehr trying to control hundreds of players, many of whom are watching their time disappear possibly for good, and who can speak publicly without immediate repercussion. It was reported a while ago that owners' meetings essentially consist of Bettman giving them a presentation about what they're going to do...and that's it. There's no discussion or questions. Apparently Bettman and the BoG decide what to do and then just tell the rest how it is and there's almost nothing they can do.

So, let's not act like the players are the only group here "brainwashed" by their chosen overlord.

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12-12-2012, 11:30 PM
  #211
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No urgency on either side. Both looking for a little extra concessions with over a month to go. What a bunch of ****heads.

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12-12-2012, 11:31 PM
  #212
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I am starting to be apart of the 60% of canadians that are starting to just not care.

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Old
12-12-2012, 11:33 PM
  #213
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im calling sleight of hand....hopefully now they can get there privacy

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Old
12-12-2012, 11:34 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
I am starting to be apart of the 60% of canadians that are starting to just not care.
Yeah, I'm getting there. Of course have believed the season was going to be cancelled from the start so I'm just watching for the laughs at both sides trying to spin everything.

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Old
12-12-2012, 11:34 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
I honestly don't think Fehr would have struck had he been allowed to play under the old CBA.
Just curious - why do you feel that way? They would have played a full year and received a full year's pay. They would have been (supposedly) negotiating a new CBA with the league. We've seen the stall tactics employed by the PA throughout this process - why wouldn't they do they same, then strike right before the playoffs? It would gain them huge leverage because they've already received their pay for the year, they lose nothing because they don't get paid during the playoffs, and the playoffs are when the teams actually make money so that's when it would hurt the owners the most. That's exactly the situation for a strike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
I'd imagine under either circumstance the owners would only do it on the condition the lockout/strike article is enforced.
And then you'd likely see the PA back out. If I was the league, I'd not only insist on the "no strike" condition, I'd also insist that there be federally monitored negotiations throughout the season to prevent stalling or silliness by either side. The "no strike" would protect the owners and the monitored negotiations would protect both sides.

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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
The blame is always going to be on the players, because the players have been less-than-sensitive with their "public outcry" tweets and such, and that's rubbed a lot of fans the wrong way.
While it's true that those tweets have alienated a lot of people from the players (me included, I've quit following all of them on Twitter), a lot of the blame is being placed on their "side" due to the shenanigans that went on early in the negotiations. I have always - and still do - lay the blame for the league's problems on both sides of this mess. But the way the PA has conducted itself has really soured me on them. The stalling, the game playing... IMO it's just unprofessional. That doesn't sit well with me. (That's not to say that both sides haven't misbehaved to one degree or another, just that I feel the PA has been much worse in that regard.) So, while I'm not anti-player, I'm anti-NHLPA, simply because I don't think the PA actually represents all the players equally.

Quote:
Choosing which side to blame right now is ridiculous. There's no need to chose. There's plenty of blame to go around and both sides have more than their share of it.
It's not ridiculous, it's human nature. Fans are emotional, they need to talk, to debate, to vent. It doesn't harm a living soul for them to take sides and then let loose with their frustrations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Yes. I'm sure the players continue to lose money because they don't want Fehr to feel a little sad.
I need a Fehr admirer to help me out here... didn't he say he would take the job contingent on being totally in charge and calling all the shots? Something like that? If so, what can they do? If not, what can they do if he has the negotiating committee convinced he's right that there's still more blood to squeeze out of the turnip and they refuse to pass the offer on to the players for a vote? Are their hands are tied at this point? Are they losing money not because they don't want Fehr to feel sad, but simply because they can't do anything about it?

I honestly don't know. I'm mystified by the whole thing but for me it keeps going back to the very beginning, when we heard things like the players were out for revenge against the owners for the 2004 CBA. They felt they had to win - win at all costs, win no matter what. Someone came onto one of these message boards and said if that was the case, they had lost before the negotiations ever began because their focus was on the wrong thing. I have to say right now it looks to me like that's the way this is headed.

Note: All of the above is personal opinion, not claimed to be factual in nature.

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12-12-2012, 11:38 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Yet reportedly Snider wasn't all that happy with the lockout. He still couldn't do anything. I think Bettman actually has an easier time controlling/influencing a fairly small group of owners compared to Fehr trying to control hundreds of players, many of whom are watching their time disappear possibly for good, and who can speak publicly without immediate repercussion. It was reported a while ago that owners' meetings essentially consist of Bettman giving them a presentation about what they're going to do...and that's it. There's no discussion or questions. Apparently Bettman and the BoG decide what to do and then just tell the rest how it is and there's almost nothing they can do.

So, let's not act like the players are the only group here "brainwashed" by their chosen overlord.
And yet and this is the funny thing about you silly argument, there are 30 members of the board of governers. 1 from every single team. So bettman and the BOG deciding what to do and strong arming the rest into that thinking is a load of bolognie.

Just look at the nhlpa's negotiating committee, how many teams are actually represented by those 31 players? Heck atleast 2 of them do not even belong to an nhl team.

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12-12-2012, 11:40 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Just curious - why do you feel that way? They would have played a full year and received a full year's pay. They would have been (supposedly) negotiating a new CBA with the league. We've seen the stall tactics employed by the PA throughout this process - why wouldn't they do they same, then strike right before the playoffs? It would gain them huge leverage because they've already received their pay for the year, they lose nothing because they don't get paid during the playoffs, and the playoffs are when the teams actually make money so that's when it would hurt the owners the most. That's exactly the situation for a strike.
Because it would be an absolute PR nightmare from the player's perspective. In baseball Fehr pointed out the fact that the league was withholding money from the players. The NHL would not have done something like tha, it would have literally been suicide.


Last edited by Renbarg: 12-13-2012 at 12:04 AM.
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12-12-2012, 11:42 PM
  #218
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@Boltsfan

I don't know the specifics of the PA except that Fehr essentially consolidated and protected his position, like Bettman has for the owners. We've got two negotiators who are in a position where they don't need to blink. Bettman can do what he feels is best for the league despite what a group of owners might think, and Fehr can similarly do what he feels is best for the NHLPA. I don't know the procedures for putting something to a vote in the NHLPA, so I don't know how much leeway he really has. I'm of the opinion that Fehr isn't really acting for the current players...he's probably thinking a lot about future generations. MLB players now are generally benefitting more than MLB players in '95, for instance. The NHLPA position makes more sense (IMO) if you consider that they're essentially sacrificing the current crop to make sure the next generation can do OK.

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12-12-2012, 11:43 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
Because it would be an absolute PR nightmare from the player's perspective. In baseball Fehr pointed out the fact that the league was withholding money from the players. It would have literally been suicide.
Hmmm sounds a lot familiar to the start of this lockout with the nhlpa fighting the way that the nhl counted its HRR.

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12-12-2012, 11:43 PM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Yet reportedly Snider wasn't all that happy with the lockout. He still couldn't do anything. I think Bettman actually has an easier time controlling/influencing a fairly small group of owners compared to Fehr trying to control hundreds of players, many of whom are watching their time disappear possibly for good, and who can speak publicly without immediate repercussion. It was reported a while ago that owners' meetings essentially consist of Bettman giving them a presentation about what they're going to do...and that's it. There's no discussion or questions. Apparently Bettman and the BoG decide what to do and then just tell the rest how it is and there's almost nothing they can do.

So, let's not act like the players are the only group here "brainwashed" by their chosen overlord.
I'll agree to disagree. Every owner that Bettman represents knows every little detail behind this labor dispute. The players on the other hand, don't. They're not businessman, they're hockey players. I'd think it would be easier to manipulate the uneducated group, while the owners know exactly what's in their best interest.

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12-12-2012, 11:44 PM
  #221
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And yet and this is the funny thing about you silly argument, there are 30 members of the board of governers. 1 from every single team. So bettman and the BOG deciding what to do and strong arming the rest into that thinking is a load of bolognie.

Just look at the nhlpa's negotiating committee, how many teams are actually represented by those 31 players? Heck atleast 2 of them do not even belong to an nhl team.
Actually it's not. The NHL BOG has unequal voting rights. Bettman can personally push through a deal with something like only 25% of the board's support (he negotiated this in his own contract). Further, the gag order on NHL owners means that we will never know whether Bettman's support is indeed "unanimous" as he always claims. I'm not saying that Bettman is necessarily the child-strangling baby that he is made out to be, but I am saying that he can keep the owners in line very effectively given his contractual power...

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12-12-2012, 11:44 PM
  #222
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And yet and this is the funny thing about you silly argument, there are 30 members of the board of governers. 1 from every single team. So bettman and the BOG deciding what to do and strong arming the rest into that thinking is a load of bolognie.

Just look at the nhlpa's negotiating committee, how many teams are actually represented by those 31 players? Heck atleast 2 of them do not even belong to an nhl team.
Then go ahead and explain the numerous reports about the lockout being perpetuated by Bettman and a small group of hardliners? If it's so much bologna, how is that possible?

I didn't make this up. There was an article about it a while back, using an anonymous owner as a source if I'm not mistaken. He's the one who said the shots are called by a select group.

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12-12-2012, 11:46 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Yet reportedly Snider wasn't all that happy with the lockout. He still couldn't do anything. I think Bettman actually has an easier time controlling/influencing a fairly small group of owners compared to Fehr trying to control hundreds of players, many of whom are watching their time disappear possibly for good, and who can speak publicly without immediate repercussion. It was reported a while ago that owners' meetings essentially consist of Bettman giving them a presentation about what they're going to do...and that's it. There's no discussion or questions. Apparently Bettman and the BoG decide what to do and then just tell the rest how it is and there's almost nothing they can do.

So, let's not act like the players are the only group here "brainwashed" by their chosen overlord.
Just from my perspective - the "ratio" is flipped between the owners and the players.

% of owners who want a CBA now at any price - probably 20% (TOR, NYR, PHI, etc). If the majority of owners are breaking even or losing money - pretty easy to see why they support Bettman. It should be noted though that I'm not sure how strong Bettman's support is about "dying on the hill" over 5/7 contract terms if the PA is willing to sign off on 50/50 split of HRR.

% of players who want a CBA now at any price - probably really high, with many older players, and pretty much all of the "bottom half" of the rosters guys. The hold-ups appear to be things that don't impact the VAST majority of the PA. What % of guys ever get more than a 5 year deal? Really small, and just the elite players. Who primarily benefits from the back-diving cap circumventing deal? Elite UFA's. Agree there is some limited trickle down affect - but it's probably pretty small. I understand there are some "trickle down" affects to players at large - but the players hear things like "kill the middle class", and they just swallow it hook like and sinker without understanding if it is really true.

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12-12-2012, 11:49 PM
  #224
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If this deal doesn't go the way the NHLPA "wants it to," I wonder if they will load up with another hardliner after Fehr, or try and work with the league and hire someone who wants an amicable relationship between the two.

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12-12-2012, 11:49 PM
  #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Then go ahead and explain the numerous reports about the lockout being perpetuated by Bettman and a small group of hardliners? If it's so much bologna, how is that possible?

I didn't make this up. There was an article about it a while back, using an anonymous owner as a source if I'm not mistaken. He's the one who said the shots are called by a select group.
Yeah that annonymous owner was supposedly snider, which he turned around and denied it from his vacation half way across the world.

And before that article it was thought snider was apart of the 8 votes that bettman needed. So in essence snider was the swing vote to end this, but for reason nothing came of it weird.

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