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Old
12-12-2012, 12:48 PM
  #201
LyricalLyricist
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Originally Posted by Tusk View Post
I saw Mike Richards at Safeway last night and he looked like he was doing fairly well, clothes, woman, and grocery wise. I just arrived from work and was debating with myself if I should spend the $5 on asparagus. So that's one way to look at the lockout.

On a hockey related note, I actually like Mike Richards, guy is a winner.

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12-12-2012, 12:50 PM
  #202
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On a hockey related note, I actually like Mike Richards, guy is a winner.
Me too, he's a perfect example of love the art, not the artist though. My dbag alarm went off and then I realized who it was.

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12-12-2012, 01:01 PM
  #203
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Not for anything but on academic vs athletic debate that's going on. If a kid sacrificies MAJOR parts of his education for a false hope, then he's just stupid, it has nothing to do with time. Unless the kid is really good and will postpone his higher level education to pursue a dream he should get the message at a younger age.

FWIW, I left school at 18 and returned at 22. That 4 year span wasn't because I was becoming a hockey player but for kids who are trying, if you're in a garage league by 22, maybe you should go back to school and trust me, as a person who lost 4 years, you aren't 'doomed' and your life isn't over. People are over-sympathetic. I've seen some people 40 years old going back to school. There is distance education, online courses, etc...It's just never too late so people REALLY not to stop suggesting the players sacrificed education for a dream and won't get compensated. If you're good enough for AHL you'll be making 60-350k per no? That's good compensation while you are chasing a dream. So if you don't make it, then yes, go back to school or stay in AHL, that's all.

If education is important to someone, go the NCAA(or equivalent) route where you can do less games but have schooling.
Thank you.

All along I have been stating that chasing a dream to become a hockey player is not the same kind of sacrifice, financially or otherwise, as paying millions to purchase and then run an NHL franchise. Yes, players make sacrifices to get to the NHL. So do people who want to be doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc... That is why it is not a fair comparable when discussing what is or is not financial risk.

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12-12-2012, 01:06 PM
  #204
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On a hockey related note, I actually like Mike Richards, guy is a winner.
I did too up until the Booth hit. That was really really dirty on his part

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12-12-2012, 01:41 PM
  #205
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Thank you.

All along I have been stating that chasing a dream to become a hockey player is not the same kind of sacrifice, financially or otherwise, as paying millions to purchase and then run an NHL franchise. Yes, players make sacrifices to get to the NHL. So do people who want to be doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc... That is why it is not a fair comparable when discussing what is or is not financial risk.
It doesn't mean it's less of a sacrifice. It's just different. I'm not sure why people compare the two to begin with.

To be fair however, becoming an NHL player is far more competitive than being a doctor or a teacher. As such, i'd rather not compare the two.

The bottom line for me however is that no one's forced to do anything. If hockey isn't worth the risk then don't play. I certainly wouldn't insult someone for caring about their health.

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12-12-2012, 01:56 PM
  #206
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It doesn't mean it's less of a sacrifice. It's just different.

100% agreed.

I'm not sure why people compare the two to begin with. Neither do I.

To be fair however, becoming an NHL player is far more competitive than being a doctor or a teacher. As such, i'd rather not compare the two. Depending upon the context, all three professions are comparable. Context is key.

The bottom line for me however is that no one's forced to do anything. If hockey isn't worth the risk then don't play. I certainly wouldn't insult someone for caring about their health.
I do enjoy most of your posts. I wouldn't insult someone who refused to play a sport because they didn't want take the healh risks involved, either.

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12-12-2012, 04:00 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Not for anything but on academic vs athletic debate that's going on. If a kid sacrificies MAJOR parts of his education for a false hope, then he's just stupid, it has nothing to do with time.
And if a billionaire sacrifices a MAJOR part of his portfolio to invest in the Phoenix Coyotes, a false hope, then he's just stupid, it has nothing to do with money :-)

Bottom line is that there are many ingredients to make the NHL successful in newer markets. You do need someone at the top to have the business connections to make sure the team is on TV, in the newspaper, sells box suites, can hire the right management, etc. Those are risks which is successful can lead to a better league.

You ALSO need a deep labor pool. The labor pool necessary to do specialized labor isn't something that's spontaneously created for free in background without anyone taking risks or making investments, though I realize our governments and media tell us that this is the case in every industry.

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12-12-2012, 05:10 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Thank you.

All along I have been stating that chasing a dream to become a hockey player is not the same kind of sacrifice, financially or otherwise, as paying millions to purchase and then run an NHL franchise. Yes, players make sacrifices to get to the NHL. So do people who want to be doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc... That is why it is not a fair comparable when discussing what is or is not financial risk.
you think the sacrifices & risks are the same ?


you can't be serious...

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12-12-2012, 05:15 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
It doesn't mean it's less of a sacrifice. It's just different. I'm not sure why people compare the two to begin with.

To be fair however, becoming an NHL player is far more competitive than being a doctor or a teacher. As such, i'd rather not compare the two.

The bottom line for me however is that no one's forced to do anything. If hockey isn't worth the risk then don't play. I certainly wouldn't insult someone for caring about their health.
while you're no wrong, all you're saying also apply to the owners. I mean, if it's not worth the risk, dont buy a team... no ?

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12-12-2012, 05:32 PM
  #210
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while you're no wrong, all you're saying also apply to the owners. I mean, if it's not worth the risk, dont buy a team... no ?
Problem is, if they don't take the risk, how many teams - and as a result how many fewer PLAYER jobs would there be?

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12-12-2012, 05:35 PM
  #211
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A good example of a failed NHL franchise is the Columbus Blue Jackets.

I lived in Columbus for five years and in my mind it is clearly a fertile pro sports market. The metropolitain population is 1.7 million, and there are no pro-sports teams; closest thing are the ohio state buckeyes (who play 13 games a year) and the Cleveland Cavaliers (three hours away and Lebron James is gone). The city has a decent economy, largely supported by government and universities, but also with a surprising financial sector. There is a small cadre of dedicated hockey fans.

Its got a good arena as well, Nationwide Arena, capacity 18,144, it's a well-located arena that is right in the downtown core next to the triple-A Columbus Clippers stadium, next to a few office towers, next to some decent restaurants and bars, well accessible from around the city as the downtown is also the geographic city center, approximately. The same arena is used to host the annual bodybuilding expo "Arnold Classic". The Mayor is petitioning the NBA to relocate or expand a team into the arena.

Yet, the team is a failure, in spite of all these natural advantages. It has lost 19 million a year. It will lose 13 million if the NHL switches to 50/50 with zero make-whole on rollbacks. Why is that?

At some point, you have to stop saying that billionaire investors are all bold, risk-taking heroes, and that only employees can be to blame for when a business fails. The buck has to stop at the top. What's happened here is that a brilliant, easy opportunity was taken up, and completely fumbled. It's not because the players are overpaid. It's not because Columbus is in the sunbelt, as it snows heavily there. It's because the team has been completely mismanaged. In 10 years or so of playing they have one playoff appearance to show for themselves -- a 4 game sweep at the hands of Detroit. Their draft record is also atrocious:

2000, 4th overall, Rostislav Klesla
2001, 8th overall, Pascal Leclaire
2002, 1st overall, Rick Nash
2003, 4th overall, Nikolai Zherdev
2004, 8th overall, Alexandre Picard
2005, 6th overall, Gilbert Brule
2006, 6th overall, Derrick Brassard
2007, 7th overall, Jacub Voracek
2008, 6th overall, Nikita Filatov
2009, 21st overall, John Moore
2010, 4th overall, Ryan Johansen
2011, no 1st rounder, they gave up the 8th overall pick (Sean Couturier) along with Jacub Voracek to get Jeff Carter, whom they in turn traded for Jack Johnson and the 2012 Kings 1st rounder.
2012, 2nd overall, Ryan Murray

Overall, that is a massive legacy of failure. It reminds me of the 1990s Habs. Horrible drafting is the best recipe for minimizing playoff revenue. The fail did not happen because players are overpaid, nor did it happen because the team is in the sunbelt, as it's actually in Ohio. The fail happened because the team is mismanaged. That's why they're losing 19 million a year.

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12-12-2012, 05:35 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Problem is, if they don't take the risk, how many teams - and as a result how many fewer PLAYER jobs would there be?
same for the players, if they dont take the risk, who will play for their team ?

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12-12-2012, 05:38 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you think the sacrifices & risks are the same ?


you can't be serious...
The sacrifices are not the same. Clearly.... They're not even close to being the same. However, I believe that no one sacrifice is greater than the other.

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12-12-2012, 06:06 PM
  #214
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A good example of a failed NHL franchise is the Columbus Blue Jackets.

I lived in Columbus for five years and in my mind it is clearly a fertile pro sports market. The metropolitain population is 1.7 million, and there are no pro-sports teams; closest thing are the ohio state buckeyes (who play 13 games a year) and the Cleveland Cavaliers (three hours away and Lebron James is gone). The city has a decent economy, largely supported by government and universities, but also with a surprising financial sector. There is a small cadre of dedicated hockey fans.

Its got a good arena as well, Nationwide Arena, capacity 18,144, it's a well-located arena that is right in the downtown core next to the triple-A Columbus Clippers stadium, next to a few office towers, next to some decent restaurants and bars, well accessible from around the city as the downtown is also the geographic city center, approximately. The same arena is used to host the annual bodybuilding expo "Arnold Classic". The Mayor is petitioning the NBA to relocate or expand a team into the arena.

Yet, the team is a failure, in spite of all these natural advantages. It has lost 19 million a year. It will lose 13 million if the NHL switches to 50/50 with zero make-whole on rollbacks. Why is that?

At some point, you have to stop saying that billionaire investors are all bold, risk-taking heroes, and that only employees can be to blame for when a business fails. The buck has to stop at the top. What's happened here is that a brilliant, easy opportunity was taken up, and completely fumbled. It's not because the players are overpaid. It's not because Columbus is in the sunbelt, as it snows heavily there. It's because the team has been completely mismanaged. In 10 years or so of playing they have one playoff appearance to show for themselves -- a 4 game sweep at the hands of Detroit. Their draft record is also atrocious:

2000, 4th overall, Rostislav Klesla
2001, 8th overall, Pascal Leclaire
2002, 1st overall, Rick Nash
2003, 4th overall, Nikolai Zherdev
2004, 8th overall, Alexandre Picard
2005, 6th overall, Gilbert Brule
2006, 6th overall, Derrick Brassard
2007, 7th overall, Jacub Voracek
2008, 6th overall, Nikita Filatov
2009, 21st overall, John Moore
2010, 4th overall, Ryan Johansen
2011, no 1st rounder, they gave up the 8th overall pick (Sean Couturier) along with Jacub Voracek to get Jeff Carter, whom they in turn traded for Jack Johnson and the 2012 Kings 1st rounder.
2012, 2nd overall, Ryan Murray

Overall, that is a massive legacy of failure. It reminds me of the 1990s Habs. Horrible drafting is the best recipe for minimizing playoff revenue. The fail did not happen because players are overpaid, nor did it happen because the team is in the sunbelt, as it's actually in Ohio. The fail happened because the team is mismanaged. That's why they're losing 19 million a year.
That is one extreme, next to the Toronto Maple Leafs who still fail despite having massive revenue available for players, accomodations, top notch staff etc.

At the other end is Nasville who is still struggling finacially despite being very well run(see Expos in early 90's) because they don't have the revenue to comete with Detroit Phillie NYR etc

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12-12-2012, 07:06 PM
  #215
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That is one extreme, next to the Toronto Maple Leafs who still fail despite having massive revenue available for players, accomodations, top notch staff etc.

At the other end is Nasville who is still struggling finacially despite being very well run(see Expos in early 90's) because they don't have the revenue to comete with Detroit Phillie NYR etc
yup, and while the league is trying to cut costs (salaries), they're doing NOTHING to help the struggling franchise.

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12-12-2012, 07:35 PM
  #216
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yup, and while the league is trying to cut costs (salaries), they're doing NOTHING to help the struggling franchise.
Increased revenue sharing doesn't count?

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12-12-2012, 07:51 PM
  #217
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Increased revenue sharing doesn't count?
not really, teams losing money will lose a little less, but at the end of the day they'll be losing money still.

at the expense of the profitable franchises, no less.

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12-12-2012, 08:10 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Increased revenue sharing doesn't count?
Not at this miniscule level, not really.

The proposal is for a 230 million dollar annual decrease in player salaries and a 33 million dollar annual increase in revenue sharing.

It's hard to take Bettman/Jacobs seriously with these silly numbers.

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12-12-2012, 08:54 PM
  #219
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same for the players, if they dont take the risk, who will play for their team ?
No, not the same.

There are far more people capable of playing hockey and trying to make it to the NHL than there are people financially capable and willing to pay for and run an NHL franchise. There are millions of people who PAY to play hockey. There will always be people willing to earn a fantastic living, even at a MERE 50% of HRR. There are nowhere near that many people capable of paying for running an NHL franchise from a financial perspective.

Players make sacrifices to get to the NHL. So do most people in trying to achieve their goals in their chosen careers in a specialized field.

Players take physical risks playing the game. So do many other people in their chosen fields. Players get far better financial compensation than almost any other career choice in the world.

Owners take all of the financial risk involved in running an NHL franchise. Quite a few made sacrifices along the way to getting enough wealth to being able to purchase an NHL franchise. Owners do not take physical risks associated with the game.

As such, since you need both the players, who take the health risks, and the owners who take the financial risks, it is quite fair for both parties to receive a 50/50 split of the HRR. That is, ultimately, what all of this talk about various types of risk and sacrifice is all about.

Now do you understand, or are you going to try and find another sentence somewhere to try and obfuscate the actual discussion/debate?

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12-12-2012, 08:56 PM
  #220
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Increased revenue sharing doesn't count?
I think reducing payroll limits would help as well

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12-12-2012, 09:28 PM
  #221
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No, not the same.

There are far more people capable of playing hockey and trying to make it to the NHL than there are people financially capable and willing to pay for and run an NHL franchise. There are millions of people who PAY to play hockey. There will always be people willing to earn a fantastic living, even at a MERE 50% of HRR. There are nowhere near that many people capable of paying for running an NHL franchise from a financial perspective.

Players make sacrifices to get to the NHL. So do most people in trying to achieve their goals in their chosen careers in a specialized field.

Players take physical risks playing the game. So do many other people in their chosen fields. Players get far better financial compensation than almost any other career choice in the world.

Owners take all of the financial risk involved in running an NHL franchise. Quite a few made sacrifices along the way to getting enough wealth to being able to purchase an NHL franchise. Owners do not take physical risks associated with the game.

As such, since you need both the players, who take the health risks, and the owners who take the financial risks, it is quite fair for both parties to receive a 50/50 split of the HRR. That is, ultimately, what all of this talk about various types of risk and sacrifice is all about.

Now do you understand, or are you going to try and find another sentence somewhere to try and obfuscate the actual discussion/debate?
30 teams, +/- 700 players... no need to have as many possible owners.


stop with that "so do others" stuff, all you're showing is that you have no clue how it is to play sport at a very high level.

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12-13-2012, 08:02 AM
  #222
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yup, and while the league is trying to cut costs (salaries), they're doing NOTHING to help the struggling franchise.
If they get this CBA done it should be a big help to small markets...much more revenue sharing(200 mil based on last offers), shorter contracts and balanced pay throughout(no more 10-12 year back diving contracts) plus a 50-50 split of revenues(versus 57-43). Those three things should help all small markets.

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12-13-2012, 08:30 AM
  #223
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Not at this miniscule level, not really.

The proposal is for a 230 million dollar annual decrease in player salaries and a 33 million dollar annual increase in revenue sharing.

It's hard to take Bettman/Jacobs seriously with these silly numbers.
Put in context, the proposal is for a 14% decrease in player salaries, and a 33% increase in revenue sharing.

How would you feel about a 33% increase in union dues?

I can tell you even CAW members groan about their dues. If I were an owner of a financially successful franchise, I would not be looking forward to such a change.

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12-13-2012, 08:44 AM
  #224
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30 teams, +/- 700 players... no need to have as many possible owners.


stop with that "so do others" stuff, all you're showing is that you have no clue how it is to play sport at a very high level.
Do you?

As a 12 year old I was working out 24 hours/week. Far more than hockey players. And when I was able to make it to the National Team, I got $300/month. No one in my sport was able to cash in, even people who got Olympic Gold. There are many other sports like that too.

Hockey players are lucky to be able to make the money they do, they should appreciate that they make 44 times the average person.

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12-13-2012, 10:38 AM
  #225
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30 teams, +/- 700 players... no need to have as many possible owners.


stop with that "so do others" stuff, all you're showing is that you have no clue how it is to play sport at a very high level.
No one said you needed to have as many owners, but you do need enough to be willing to pay 100s of millions to buy and then run a franchise. Far, far fewer of those types exist than people capable of playing hockey at a high level.

I do not have to "stop" with the "so do others" stuff because I do know what it is like to do a physical "sport" at a fairly high level, just not hockey. I have been very successful in the Martial Art I have trained in for 27 years and completely understand the difficulties, challenges, and enjoyments involved in doing such. No, I do not fight professionally, but that was my choice, not due to any failing. The FACT that people in OTHER professions train as hard as athletes, but in a DIFFERENT manner seems to hurt your feelings. I am not sure why, but you might want to ratchet back the hero worship and try to understand that there are people who choose to go to university and succeed at it who work as hard as people who become professional athletes. Do I mean everyone who goes to university? No. There are plenty who go and fail, drop out, or skate through with minimal effort. You get the same type of people who choose to try and make a professional career in a sport, as well. The thing is, those are usually the ones who do not succeed. The people who go to university and succeed, have made the same kinds of sacrifices, taken similar types of risk related to whether or not they will succeed in their chosen profession, as any hockey player. I wish you could try, at least TRY, to understand that reality.

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