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2012 CBA/Lockout talk, It's not looking good VI

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Old
12-13-2012, 12:34 PM
  #776
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Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
I thought the players gave in on the salry cap and gave a 24% roll back that lead to this?
It took a year long lockout to get it to that point.

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12-13-2012, 12:40 PM
  #777
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
It took a year long lockout to get it to that point.
Sure, and just like clockwork they're locked out again, because the owners apparentley couldn't do some math to see how this would work if things went well.

This league has never had a good business model, maybe at some point the owners could figure one out.

This league has alway worried about the fans they dont have, they better start figuring stuff out because the're going to start losing ones they do.

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12-13-2012, 12:45 PM
  #778
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
Owners always have the keys, but they also have an obligation to the business and sport to ensure that when they use those keys they will be doing so with a CBA that is in everyone's best interest.

The players balked at this past CBA, one that saw more teams viable financially, saw revenues sky rocket, saw players salaries grow, and grew the sport significantly by creating more competition throughout.

The players have just as much power to end the lockout as all they've been asked to do is agree to a deal that will be very profitable for everyone involved and NOT hold out for more at the expense of the owners, the teams, or the fans.
I'm sorry, what?

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12-13-2012, 01:18 PM
  #779
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Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
Sure, and just like clockwork they're locked out again, because the owners apparentley couldn't do some math to see how this would work if things went well.

This league has never had a good business model, maybe at some point the owners could figure one out.This league has alway worried about the fans they dont have, they better start figuring stuff out because the're going to start losing ones they do.
that is exactly what the owners are trying to do no? learn from their mistakes and make some corrections.

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12-13-2012, 01:21 PM
  #780
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Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
Sure, and just like clockwork they're locked out again, because the owners apparentley couldn't do some math to see how this would work if things went well.

This league has never had a good business model, maybe at some point the owners could figure one out.

This league has alway worried about the fans they dont have, they better start figuring stuff out because the're going to start losing ones they do.
If you could forecast economic growth and revenue 8 years out you'd be the most popular man in the world. Renegotiating a CBA will always be a part of the sport, there is no escaping it, not in this environment. There will always be lockouts as well because the players unions mission statement is essentially to maximize it's members earnings over the shortest period of time.

I do agree though, the NHL is worried about the customers it doesn't currently have. I also know that all businesses are. It seems you want the owners to come up with a permanent solution but you don't want them to lockout the players because missed hockey alienates the current fans. That's pretty much an impossible task as the owners have to work with the union to create that business model, not independent of it. Any decision they make on the economics must be signed off on by the players.

Are the owners alienating the fans they do have? No doubt they are. So are the players but not agreeing to the CBA to will literally pay each millions of dollars over their career. Owners, unlike players however, are also worried about maintaining the competitiveness between teams which is very very good for the fans it does have. Players don't care, they want to maximize their own returns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
I'm sorry, what?
Goodenow and the PA would not agree to a salary cap. They balked at it throughout to the point where we lost a year of hockey. And now we have the benefit of hindsight, we can look back at this past CBA and see that it was very advantageous for everyone involved. Players made more money. Owners made more or at the very least lost less money. More fans came out to the game and it grew in popularity exponentially. Literally everyone won because at a time when the NHL was suffering badly financially, the owners insisted on a hard cap and locked out the players until they got it.

Players and agents are in it for the immediate payoff. It isn't their job to care about the viability of the sport over the long term. It is in their best interest to get as much money as they possibly can in the shortest time possible.

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12-13-2012, 01:46 PM
  #781
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This is how I feel. I really miss the games and hope they find a way to get their heads out of their behinds and get a season going.

I don't buy merchandise (What I have was given to me ) and I don't usually buy food there. ..maybe a water or soda at the most.

It's a shame that the fools let it get to this.
Totally agree. I took option #1 because I honestly thought the players and owners couldnt be this stupid so shortly after cancelling an entire season. So wrong. I am contemplating seeing if I can change to option 2 now - doubt they will let me but they better do something more than a paltry 3% APR and one year price lock (when they wont raise prices after lockout anyways). I want a 5 year price lock or something for the most loyal (and idiotic) fans like myself who chose option 1.

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12-13-2012, 02:43 PM
  #782
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i took option 2 because i figured with that idiot fehr in there this would be a long lockout and there was no way the Bruins would raise prices next season.

as bad as bettman is, if fehr wasnt in charge, this would be over by now.

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12-13-2012, 03:03 PM
  #783
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I took option 1 because I'm in it for the long haul. They won't let you switch options now, they made that clear when they gave you the choices back in September. I do agree that having Fehr as the PA rep is making this worse. Bettman, the owners and the players want to play. Fehr could care less and is trying to suck every last penny out of the league. They're so close, its laughable that nothing is being accomplished, they're on the 11th hour here. Definetely running out of time.

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12-13-2012, 06:16 PM
  #784
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Originally Posted by Highatop325 View Post
I took option 1 because I'm in it for the long haul. They won't let you switch options now, they made that clear when they gave you the choices back in September. I do agree that having Fehr as the PA rep is making this worse. Bettman, the owners and the players want to play. Fehr could care less and is trying to suck every last penny out of the league. They're so close, its laughable that nothing is being accomplished, they're on the 11th hour here. Definetely running out of time.
Oh really?

Quote:
If he wanted to, Gary Bettman could end the lockout by the time you finish reading this.

Not just because he is commissioner, but because he -- and the NHL -- have already won.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...-on-paper.html

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12-13-2012, 06:18 PM
  #785
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that is exactly what the owners are trying to do no? learn from their mistakes and make some corrections.
Well, they've made plenty of mistakes. The greatest CBA of all-time can't be far away.

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12-13-2012, 06:49 PM
  #786
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Originally Posted by beaverjc View Post
Totally agree. I took option #1 because I honestly thought the players and owners couldnt be this stupid so shortly after cancelling an entire season. So wrong. I am contemplating seeing if I can change to option 2 now - doubt they will let me but they better do something more than a paltry 3% APR and one year price lock (when they wont raise prices after lockout anyways). I want a 5 year price lock or something for the most loyal (and idiotic) fans like myself who chose option 1.
I took option one as well. I would also like more than a one year price lock. I don't think it will happen unless the B's totally suck for the next few years.

I am very broke and bored.

As I have said all of my entertainment $$$ goes to my ST...so I have no entertainment and no $$$. I work too many hours at a thankless job and have no B's games to go to to relieve the stress. A month ago I was put on high blood pressure meds.

I want the season to start. I have a blast at the games and miss everyone (well most everyone ) at the Garden including the players, the guys behind the B's bench, the folks who work at the Garden and my fellow friends/ fans..

Sigh....

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12-13-2012, 07:00 PM
  #787
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I took option one as well. I would also like more than a one year price lock. I don't think it will happen unless the B's totally suck for the next few years.

I am very broke and bored.

As I have said all of my entertainment $$$ goes to my ST...so I have no entertainment and no $$$. I work too many hours at a thankless job and have no B's games to go to to relieve the stress. A month ago I was put on high blood pressure meds.

I want the season to start. I have a blast at the games and miss everyone (well most everyone ) at the Garden including the players, the guys behind the B's bench, the folks who work at the Garden and my fellow friends/ fans..

Sigh....
seems like the owners are going to play a game of chicken here- they will eventually have to set a date, not move off their offer and see if Fehr and PA blink.

they are ridiculously close but it aint about that anymore- its who BLINKS first

maybe they can reenact the James Dean scene from Rebel Without A Cause but do it with both in zamboni's (but still use the cliff)

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12-13-2012, 07:05 PM
  #788
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
Goodenow and the PA would not agree to a salary cap. They balked at it throughout to the point where we lost a year of hockey. And now we have the benefit of hindsight, we can look back at this past CBA and see that it was very advantageous for everyone involved. Players made more money. Owners made more or at the very least lost less money. More fans came out to the game and it grew in popularity exponentially. Literally everyone won because at a time when the NHL was suffering badly financially, the owners insisted on a hard cap and locked out the players until they got it.

Players and agents are in it for the immediate payoff. It isn't their job to care about the viability of the sport over the long term. It is in their best interest to get as much money as they possibly can in the shortest time possible.
This last CBA was NOT just a salary cap. It was an agreement forged in tandem between two sides with serious, tangible concessions from both sides of the aisle.

What was balked at, was never agreed to. Let's be fair here.

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12-13-2012, 07:07 PM
  #789
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Any updates on this b/s?

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12-13-2012, 07:11 PM
  #790
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Any updates on this b/s?
Here's what happened today, per the Associated Press:

Quote:
NEW YORK – Two days of talks between the NHL, the players’ association, and federal mediators still haven’t provided any answers how to end the lockout.
Representatives from the fighting sides made it into the same room with a federal mediator Thursday. They just didn’t make any noticeable progress. After a failed day Wednesday when the parties on either end of the hockey labor dispute never met with each other, lawyers from each group spoke face to face Thursday.
They appear no closer to a deal to save the season.
Players’ association special counsel Steve Fehr, who met with league lead counsel Bob Batterman on Thursday, said the sides intend to talk Friday either in person or by phone.
“I expect the mediators will continue to be involved,” Fehr wrote in an email to The Associated Press. “Do not want to characterize the discussion today.”
At no point on either day this week did union executive director Donald Fehr meet with NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman and deputy commissioner Bill Daly.
Daly said he expected to talk to Steve Fehr on Friday.
“I’m not sure what the next steps will be,” Daly told the AP in an email. “I do expect the mediators to stay involved in terms of monitoring our ongoing negotiations, but at this point there are no further sessions planned. It doesn’t appear there was movement by either side on any of the main issues over the last two days.”

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12-13-2012, 07:12 PM
  #791
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seems like the owners are going to play a game of chicken here- they will eventually have to set a date, not move off their offer and see if Fehr and PA blink.

they are ridiculously close but it aint about that anymore- its who BLINKS first

maybe they can reenact the James Dean scene from Rebel Without A Cause but do it with both in zamboni's (but still use the cliff)
I just want to slap them...hard. Idiots.

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12-13-2012, 07:15 PM
  #792
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Here's what happened today, per the Associated Press:
Fantastic.

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12-13-2012, 07:16 PM
  #793
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Fehr...take the deal...you're hurting Ladyfan here!!!

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12-13-2012, 07:26 PM
  #794
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
This last CBA was NOT just a salary cap. It was an agreement forged in tandem between two sides with serious, tangible concessions from both sides of the aisle.

What was balked at, was never agreed to. Let's be fair here.
I am being very fair, what was balked at was the idea of a hard salary cap.

Money Players: The Amazing Rise & Fall of Bob Goodenow and the NHL Players Association
Quote:
In late February 2005, NHL owners and Bob Goodenow of the NHL Players Association met behind closed doors in what was purported to be a last-ditch effort to end the lockout and save the season. At issue was a salary cap—and who called the shots in the hockey business. Having succeeded in disgracing Alan Eagleson as director of the union, Goodenow used strikes and hardball negotiations to push up player salaries. While players got rich, owners said Goodenow ignored the overall health of the game. By 2005, furious owners were crying foul. Citing the dismal state of NHL finances, the owners demanded a salary cap. Goodenow refused—resulting in a 103-day lockout. When the NHL and the players union finally settled, Goodenow was-by an amazing twist of fate—out of a job and the union was badly divided. The owners got their salary cap, but at what long-term cost to the sport? There was only one real loser: the fan.
Other concessions were won and lost. It was the idea of a hard cap that caused the lost season.

And the 24% player salary roll back? That was offered in December by the PA, about this time actually, well before the season was officially cancelled in February. The players still wouldn't accept the idea of a cap until the 11th hour (February), and then not at the figures proposed by Owners for a ceiling and floor.

Hence the lost season. Hockey finally came back when owners conceded to have the cap floor and ceiling tied to revenues... and alas... here we are once again.

See... baby steps. Owners can't just go out and permanently fix the business model because the PA would have to agree to their decisions, and the PA is only interested in increasing the salaries of everyone on the PA. Last time around the owners got their cap, and it cost us a year of hockey to get it. It worked though, it was a huge win for everyone involved and the NHL is in far better shape then they once were because of it. Things got a little less broken.

Now they need to take the next step and fix it a little more. Bring the players percentage to a more reasonable level and plug some holes in the last CBA that never should have been there, and that cause severe issues for the lower revenue teams. Will it be a permanent solution? Likely not. But at least the league wants the CBA to last 10 years making the solution longer lasting... the players don't want that but the league does. That alone should tell you something.

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12-13-2012, 08:41 PM
  #795
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Well, they've made plenty of mistakes. The greatest CBA of all-time can't be far away.
every other sport has changed their CBA over time as well. They learn what works and what doesn't and they make changes. Why is this not the right way to do things. Should they just say screw it we made mistakes lets just live with it forever?

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12-13-2012, 08:56 PM
  #796
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Employees get screwed. Its the American way. We always give back. The players however this shakes out will still have one of the better compensation packages in the free world. They will be more than ok. They will lose and how much they lose is up to them.

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12-13-2012, 08:57 PM
  #797
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Originally Posted by Scotto74 View Post
every other sport has changed their CBA over time as well. They learn what works and what doesn't and they make changes. Why is this not the right way to do things. Should they just say screw it we made mistakes lets just live with it forever?
Yeah its pretty easy to comprehend IMO.

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12-13-2012, 09:34 PM
  #798
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every other sport has changed their CBA over time as well. They learn what works and what doesn't and they make changes. Why is this not the right way to do things. Should they just say screw it we made mistakes lets just live with it forever?
huge difference between the love of our lives and every other sport (I'm assuming you mean the 4 majors in NA) is that every other sport is firmly woven into the fabric of our society as Americans, so they have more goodwill already built in. Matt Kalman said it best a few hours ago when he tweeted that "The NHL has already lost the attention span of the US."

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12-13-2012, 09:46 PM
  #799
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huge difference between the love of our lives and every other sport (I'm assuming you mean the 4 majors in NA) is that every other sport is firmly woven into the fabric of our society as Americans, so they have more goodwill already built in. Matt Kalman said it best a few hours ago when he tweeted that "The NHL has already lost the attention span of the US."
If their attention span is that short then the NHL will have no problem getting those lost fans back.

At the end of the day, hockey fans are hockey fans and they're going to watch hockey and usually want to see the best available.

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12-13-2012, 09:54 PM
  #800
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Employees get screwed. Its the American way. We always give back. The players however this shakes out will still have one of the better compensation packages in the free world. They will be more than ok. They will lose and how much they lose is up to them.
Beautifully stated. It's amazing they haven't figured it out. Clock's ticking and everyday they just lose more

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