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Old
12-13-2012, 03:13 AM
  #151
Bleach Clean
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
I don't have a link. I just remember seeing it posted along with the Schenn for Luongo rumours.

Kulemin and a 2nd isn't something worth oulling the trigger on. Kulemin, Biggs and Finn make me think twice though. Still not a great offer but not a terrible one either.

Gillis' best play here is going to be to wait teams out. Losing hockey games is what gets GM's motivated to deal. There just isn't going to be any desperation until teams start struggling.



The rumours at the draft were Schenn for Luongo straight up, and then Kulemin, Komisarek and a 1st (2013) _after_ the draft.


I don't have a direct link either, but this site: http://fans.mapleleafs.nhl.com/community/ still has a reference to it, because I remember seeing it here as well. DG93 is welcome to look for it. I can't be bothered at this point.


I agree with your last point as well. Gillis's best play is carry Luongo into the season, at least for a few games, to show other GMs he's willing to run with both and that there is not arbitrary deadline here. It also makes other GMs acutely aware of their team's weaknesses in net. Thereby solidifying their motivation.

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12-13-2012, 08:49 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean;56481333[B
]It wasn't a problem for Gillis and Gilman to take the gamble. So I'm not sure why it is any different for TO? [/B]If Burke and Co do think it's too great a risk, they are welcome to withdraw all offers and not pursue him at all. Fair?


Either Burke and Nonis are serious about getting Luongo, or they're not. Gillis won't view Luongo as an undue risk, so I'm not sure he's going to acquiesce to the trepidations of Burke when dealing with him.
This is very obvious, i;m not sure how any Nucks fan can't see this. You do realize the age Lou was when he signed this contract? Cannucks fans were able to enjoy the best years of this lengthy contract and cap hit while Lou was in his prime. It is the length of the contract that made the cap hit so appealing when he was younger, the opposite holds true as he gets older. Whoever takes on Lou (if that even happens) is taking on all the risk, not withstanding the financial burden as well. All signs point to the cap being lowered, to expect a team to take that contract and cap hit off vancouvers hands, add a premium return, and not give any cap space back is beyond ludacris. Haven't heard or seen one person say they like the contract/cap hit/term other than Nucks fans. Funny how that works


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12-13-2012, 09:19 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
This is very obvious, i;m not sure how any Nucks fan can't see this. You do realize the age Lou was when he signed this contract? Cannucks fans were able to enjoy the best years of this lengthy contract and cap hit while Lou was in his prime. It is the length of the contract that made the cap hit so appealing when he was younger, the opposite holds true as he gets older. Whoever takes on Lou (if that even happens) is taking on all the risk, not withstanding the financial burden as well. All signs point to the cap being lowered, to expect a team to take that contract and cap hit off vancouvers hands, add a premium return, and not give any cap space back is beyond ludacris. Haven't heard or seem one person say they like the contract/cap hit/term other than Nucks fans. Funny how that works



This is very obvious, I'm not sure how any Leafs fans can't see this. You do realize Gillis knew Luongo would one day get older, and that he was prepared to have him as the #1 for the duration of his career. Prime years or otherwise, his ability is high end. They intended to enjoy his latter years, as they had his prime years. As an aside, the cap hit is still fantastic even as he ages because the inflation of a rising cap has done the same to goalie salaries. It is as appealing now as it was then. Interesting to note, the financial burden of such stars is felt by any team that has them or acquires them. If the cap gets lowered, it will be the standard 6m+ contracts that will impede teams far more than Luongo's 5.33m cap-hit would. Further, no team is doing VAN a favour as they don't consider the contract a salary dump, nor are they looking to create space, but rather are looking for a good return. That's all that matters. This is very reasonable from a thinking fan's perspective, and I'm not surprised Luongo doesn't win more popularity contests because of it. Funny how that works.

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12-13-2012, 09:20 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
This is very obvious, i;m not sure how any Nucks fan can't see this. You do realize the age Lou was when he signed this contract? Cannucks fans were able to enjoy the best years of this lengthy contract and cap hit while Lou was in his prime. It is the length of the contract that made the cap hit so appealing when he was younger, the opposite holds true as he gets older. Whoever takes on Lou (if that even happens) is taking on all the risk, not withstanding the financial burden as well. All signs point to the cap being lowered, to expect a team to take that contract and cap hit off vancouvers hands, add a premium return, and not give any cap space back is beyond ludacris. Haven't heard or seem one person say they like the contract/cap hit/term other than Nucks fans. Funny how that works
The guy signed 2 years ago.

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12-13-2012, 09:22 AM
  #155
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Brian Burke's continuing demise is his inability to address team weaknesses. He will huff and haw at the notion of losing a good prospect for Luongo when realistically this is his best chance. If the Leafs show improvement they will attract free agents. Players want to win and as it stands right now the Leafs have not improved in the standings over the last 3-4 years.

Luong is more than a jump in the standings. he gives the Leafs an identity. he backbones your team. he gives you a chance every night. james Reimer will unlikely to even develope in to a middle of the pack starter. it's a ssad truth Leaf fans may have to accept. Scrivens isn't even on the radar....If 3 years down the road Reimer is the real deal you have the same 'problem' the Canucks have right now. And that is trying to unload a contract to gain valuable assets.
It is remarkable how biased so many can be. The Leafs need to address goaltending, no question, but according to you, Burke should overpay for a goalie who has very little to no other suitors, has a huge contract and term, is aging, and will likely be stuck to his cap hit, when his play declines. Sounds brilliant, how come so many other GM's arent lining up?

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12-13-2012, 09:27 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
This is very obvious, I'm not sure how any Leafs fans can't see this. You do realize Gillis knew Luongo would one day get older, and that he was prepared to have him as the #1 for the duration of his career. Prime years or otherwise, his ability is high end. They intended to enjoy his latter years, as they had his prime years. As an aside, the cap hit is still fantastic even as he ages because the inflation of a rising cap has done the same to goalie salaries. It is as appealing now as it was then. Interesting to note, the financial burden of such stars is felt by any team that has them or acquires them. If the cap gets lowered, it will be the standard 6m+ contracts that will impede teams far more than Luongo's 5.33m cap-hit would. Further, no team is doing VAN a favour as they don't consider the contract a salary dump, nor are they looking to create space, but rather are looking for a good return. That's all that matters. This is very reasonable from a thinking fan's perspective, and I'm not surprised Luongo doesn't win more popularity contests because of it. Funny how that works.
And yet...here we are. I find it hard to believe that your management didn't see the potential of Schnieder at that time. It may have been more prudent to sign Luongo to a shorter term which would make him much easier to move now.

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12-13-2012, 09:34 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
This is very obvious, I'm not sure how any Leafs fans can't see this. You do realize Gillis knew Luongo would one day get older, and that he was prepared to have him as the #1 for the duration of his career. Prime years or otherwise, his ability is high end. They intended to enjoy his latter years, as they had his prime years. As an aside, the cap hit is still fantastic even as he ages because the inflation of a rising cap has done the same to goalie salaries. It is as appealing now as it was then. Interesting to note, the financial burden of such stars is felt by any team that has them or acquires them. If the cap gets lowered, it will be the standard 6m+ contracts that will impede teams far more than Luongo's 5.33m cap-hit would. Further, no team is doing VAN a favour as they don't consider the contract a salary dump, nor are they looking to create space, but rather are looking for a good return. That's all that matters. This is very reasonable from a thinking fan's perspective, and I'm not surprised Luongo doesn't win more popularity contests because of it. Funny how that works.
You are incorrect in several of your statements. The inflation and growth that was experienced over the years on the previous CBA, is going to look different. If the reported 50/50 split and HRR proposal is accepted, the cap will be much lower. The incremental growth of the League will have to be quite high and quick, to have the cap anywhere close to where it is today. According to you, a 6mil contract will be a problem but not Lou's at 5.3? Interesting how that works. A goalie's cap hit stays on the books, even when he is riding the pine, add that to a player who is getting older with a long contract, and cap hit, the team aquiring him take all the risk. Would love to see him stay in Vancouver for his career, and see how much Nucks fans enjoy his cap hit and length. Good luck signing Edler and others.

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12-13-2012, 09:43 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
And yet...here we are. I find it hard to believe that your management didn't see the potential of Schnieder at that time. It may have been more prudent to sign Luongo to a shorter term which would make him much easier to move now.



If you are blessed with the chance to retain an elite level goalie, you do it. For as long as possible. The goaltender position is fickle by its very nature - yet only the high end goalies maintain any level of year to year consistency. That's Luongo.



The management team did see potential in Schneider, that's why they didn't deal him. However, Schneider will have to do what he's done for a lot longer for him to be considered on the same level as Luongo. VAN is taking a risk here. But we're here because Schneider was good enough to make it a debate, which few saw coming.



I'm surprised you're acting like Schneider's emergence was a foregone conclusion. What are the winning lotto numbers?



Quote:
Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
You are incorrect in several of your statements. The inflation and growth that was experienced over the years on the previous CBA, is going to look different. If the reported 50/50 split and HRR proposal is accepted, the cap will be much lower. The incremental growth of the League will have to be quite high and quick, to have the cap anywhere close to where it is today. According to you, a 6mil contract will be a problem but not Lou's at 5.3? Interesting how that works. A goalie's cap hit stays on the books, even when he is riding the pine, add that to a player who is getting older with a long contract, and cap hit, the team aquiring him take all the risk. Would love to see him stay in Vancouver for his career, and see how much Nucks fans enjoy his cap hit and length. Good luck signing Edler and others.



Isn't a 6m contract greater than a 5.3m contract? Interesting how math works. If you are trying to convey difficulty in taking on that cap-hit, look around the league to what comparable goalies are making and make your case. List their cap-hits and how they would fit better... I know this for sure, none will have better cap efficiency via their cap-hits than Luongo does, specifically because of his contract.



Again, if TO doesn't want the risk, why offer anything at all? Burke should want no part of Luongo's contract, even if had for a song. Or is TO in the habit of taking on/issuing bad contracts?

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12-13-2012, 09:49 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
If you are blessed with the chance to retain an elite level goalie, you do it. For as long as possible. The goaltender position is fickle by its very nature - yet only the high end goalies maintain any level of year to year consistency. That's Luongo.



The management team did see potential in Schneider, that's why they didn't deal him. However, Schneider will have to do what he's done for a lot longer for him to be considered on the same level as Luongo. VAN is taking a risk here. But we're here because Schneider was good enough to make it a debate, which few saw coming.



I'm surprised you're acting like Schneider's emergence was a foregone conclusion. What are the winning lotto numbers?








Isn't a 6m contract greater than a 5.3m contract? Interesting how math works. If you are trying to convey difficulty in taking on that cap-hit, look around the league to what comparable goalies are making and make your case. List their cap-hits and how they would fit better... I know this for sure, none will have better cap efficiency via their cap-hits than Luongo does, specifically because of his contract.



Again, if TO doesn't want the risk, why offer anything at all? Burke should want no part of Luongo's contract, even if had for a song. Or is TO in the habit of taking on/issuing bad contracts?
Well actually...yes. But there is usually a bonus prize attached.

Lupul brought Gardiner
Lombardi Brought Franson (more importantly, got rid of Lebda)
Phaneuf...contract might not be great...but the cost to aquire was squat

Komi...just plain bad
Connolly....we needed a center and it was only 2 years.

Now....Burke has never taken on a 10+year deal before...so we have no precident for that.

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12-13-2012, 09:53 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Well actually...yes. But there is usually a bonus prize attached.

Lupul brought Gardiner
Lombardi Brought Franson (more importantly, got rid of Lebda)
Phaneuf...contract might not be great...but the cost to aquire was squat

Komi...just plain bad
Connolly....we needed a center and it was only 2 years.

Now....Burke has never taken on a 10+year deal before...so we have no precident for that.


A great contract, even one that is 10+ years, is still a great contract. (Luongo was signed at 30 too, not 26, for those losing track).



Actually, in this case, I can say for a certainty Lu's deal would be better than any player you listed. So good in fact, that his contract is being outlawed. This won't be a case where Burke has to take on a bad contract for something good. This is a case where Burke is taking on an illegally fantastic contract for something high end/elite. Big difference.

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12-13-2012, 09:56 AM
  #161
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If you are blessed with the chance to retain an elite level goalie, you do it. For as long as possible. The goaltender position is fickle by its very nature - yet only the high end goalies maintain any level of year to year consistency. That's Luongo.



The management team did see potential in Schneider, that's why they didn't deal him. However, Schneider will have to do what he's done for a lot longer for him to be considered on the same level as Luongo. VAN is taking a risk here. But we're here because Schneider was good enough to make it a debate, which few saw coming.



I'm surprised you're acting like Schneider's emergence was a foregone conclusion. What are the winning lotto numbers?








Isn't a 6m contract greater than a 5.3m contract? Interesting how math works. If you are trying to convey difficulty in taking on that cap-hit, look around the league to what comparable goalies are making and make your case. List their cap-hits and how they would fit better... I know this for sure, none will have better cap efficiency via their cap-hits than Luongo does, specifically because of his contract.



Again, if TO doesn't want the risk, why offer anything at all? Burke should want no part of Luongo's contract, even if had for a song. Or is TO in the habit of taking on/issuing bad contracts?
So with the cap potentially (according the 50/50 split and HRR) to approximately 60 000 000 from the 70 000 000, and 6 miliion is an issue for a cap hit and 5.3 is not?? One of the funier things I have read here. The reality is, any cap hit needs to be considered when the cap will likely be lowered as much as it may be in the new CBA. Again with the spin. You talk all you like about the great cap hit of 5.3, yet you dont acknowledge that the fact is, that cap hit will be the same when he is 38-42, but of course you chose to skip over than part. Vancouver signed Lou to that contract, i hope they see it throug to the end. Reap what you sew, and talk about how great his cap hit is when he is in his late 30's and early 40's.

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12-13-2012, 10:00 AM
  #162
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So with the cap potentially (according the 50/50 split and HRR) to approximately 60 000 000 from the 70 000 000, and 6 miliion is an issue for a cap hit and 5.3 is not?? One of the funier things I have read here. The reality is, any cap hit needs to be considered when the cap will likely be lowered as much as it may be in the new CBA. Again with the spin. You talk all you like about the great cap hit of 5.3, yet you dont acknowledge that the fact is, that cap hit will be the same when he is 38-42, but of course you chose to skip over than part. Vancouver signed Lou to that contract, i hope they see it throug to the end. Reap what you sew, and talk about how great his cap hit is when he is in his late 30's and early 40's.
I think the bottom line here, is everyone should evaluate the risks reward for luongo, and decide if it is worth it. The asking price is set obviously high (Bozak Frattin Gardiner 5OA). I don't think Gillis expects to get that, but for the sake of negotiations, you are in for a penny you are in for a dollar. There is no song and dance here.

At least not in the next 6-10 months.

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12-13-2012, 10:05 AM
  #163
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So with the cap potentially (according the 50/50 split and HRR) to approximately 60 000 000 from the 70 000 000, and 6 miliion is an issue for a cap hit and 5.3 is not?? One of the funier things I have read here. The reality is, any cap hit needs to be considered when the cap will likely be lowered as much as it may be in the new CBA. Again with the spin. You talk all you like about the great cap hit of 5.3, yet you dont acknowledge that the fact is, that cap hit will be the same when he is 38-42, but of course you chose to skip over than part. Vancouver signed Lou to that contract, i hope they see it throug to the end. Reap what you sew, and talk about how great his cap hit is when he is in his late 30's and early 40's.



You continue to miss the point (Quelle surprise). _Any_ goalie of Luongo's calibre on a shorter term deal will be making 6m+. So if the cap-hit is a concern for Luongo, it's a concern for every goalie that is of his type. What you are arguing here is that you want _no_ goalie making that kind of cash. That isn't a Luongo specific argument.



NL, do you honestly believe Gillis had not considered the potential risk in retain Luongo into his 40's? This management team has taken into account all the risks. It's the only way they even issue a contract like that out to someone - they know everything about it. Back to front. No one is skirting over anything here. Likewise, VAN fans are _well_ aware of the implications of his contract. We were discussing it years before TO fans had an inkling of acquiring him.



Lastly, if Luongo wanted to stay, I'd have no problem with Gillis retaining him. Not one. Goaltending like that tandem would keep this team competitive for a long time. But the fact is, Luongo wants to leave. So there's really no choice in the matter.

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12-13-2012, 10:14 AM
  #164
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A great contract, even one that is 10+ years, is still a great contract. (Luongo was signed at 30 too, not 26, for those losing track).



Actually, in this case, I can say for a certainty Lu's deal would be better than any player you listed. So good in fact, that his contract is being outlawed. This won't be a case where Burke has to take on a bad contract for something good. This is a case where Burke is taking on an illegally fantastic contract for something high end/elite. Big difference.
Hey, you know how i feel about his contract. If the new CBA grandfathers it, i have zero problems with it. It all comes down to the new CBA rules and cap.

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12-13-2012, 10:16 AM
  #165
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Hey, you know how i feel about his contract. If the new CBA grandfathers it, i have zero problems with it. It all comes down to the new CBA rules and cap.

Yeah, I know. That was more for others.


If we were GMing the teams LL, we'd have a deal done already!



I've followed the Sabres as my team in the east, but if Burke lands Luongo, I'm cheering for TO to make it and do some serious damage. I don't have the hate on for TO that others do. I want Luongo to shine on the biggest stage. It's just that I think Burke will ruin this fantasy for me by balking at a deal.

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12-13-2012, 10:19 AM
  #166
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Yeah, I know. That was more for others.


If we were GMing the teams LL, we'd have a deal done already!
Yup, already got my Luongo Leafs jesey!!

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12-13-2012, 10:51 AM
  #167
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Yup, already got my Luongo Leafs jesey!!
Was that yours we saw by the JVR one?

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12-13-2012, 11:02 AM
  #168
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Was that yours we saw by the JVR one?
Had it custom made.

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12-13-2012, 11:33 AM
  #169
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Yeah, I know. That was more for others.


If we were GMing the teams LL, we'd have a deal done already!



I've followed the Sabres as my team in the east, but if Burke lands Luongo, I'm cheering for TO to make it and do some serious damage. I don't have the hate on for TO that others do. I want Luongo to shine on the biggest stage. It's just that I think Burke will ruin this fantasy for me by balking at a deal.
leafs have no problem selling tickets, and thats one reason I think Florida is a real possibility for the trade, as he'd help them sell tickets.

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12-13-2012, 11:38 AM
  #170
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leafs have no problem selling tickets, and thats one reason I think Florida is a real possibility for the trade, as he'd help them sell tickets.
Without looking...wasn't their attendence pretty good the past couple of years?

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12-13-2012, 12:56 PM
  #171
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Without looking...wasn't their attendence pretty good the past couple of years?
I read an article that FLA actually makes money, and much is just hidden. I may try and find it if I get time later, but it went of the numbers that the company that runs the arena had. It said in the last ten years the only year the company did not make money was the lockout of 2004, and it was a huge difference as well. I don't want to throw out numbers without seeing it again.

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12-13-2012, 01:09 PM
  #172
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I read an article that FLA actually makes money, and much is just hidden. I may try and find it if I get time later, but it went of the numbers that the company that runs the arena had. It said in the last ten years the only year the company did not make money was the lockout of 2004, and it was a huge difference as well. I don't want to throw out numbers without seeing it again.
Ya...i remember something like that.

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12-13-2012, 01:26 PM
  #173
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Ok ,, What teams were actually rumored to be in on Luongo at any point in last 3 months of old CBA before lockout

Just curious ,, I cant remember outside of the Panthers/Leafs and some speculation the Hawks showed some interest around draft

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12-13-2012, 01:32 PM
  #174
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Ok ,, What teams were actually rumored to be in on Luongo at any point in last 3 months of old CBA before lockout

Just curious ,, I cant remember outside of the Panthers/Leafs and some speculation the Hawks showed some interest around draft
EDM and possibly SJ as well.

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12-13-2012, 01:41 PM
  #175
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Ok ,, What teams were actually rumored to be in on Luongo at any point in last 3 months of old CBA before lockout

Just curious ,, I cant remember outside of the Panthers/Leafs and some speculation the Hawks showed some interest around draft
Teams that have been reported as interested in Luongo in no particular order:

Florida
Tampa - Got Lindback
Edmonton
Toronto
Chicago
San Jose
Columbus - Signed a solid backup
Plus one reported "mystery team" :grainofsalt:

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