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CBA Thread, Daniel Bryan Edition: The lockout is (tentatively) over!

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Old
12-13-2012, 09:41 AM
  #501
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No progress yesterday, probably no further meetings today. Players are either going to backtrack and accept the last set of terms proposed by the league, sometime before Christmas, or the season is over.

At this point, as a fan I won't even accept a deal from DirecTV on Center Ice (say they get a half season in), unless they literally charge me $5/month for it. I am paying less than $50 for every remaining televised game, or I'm canceling. An NHL season isn't even worth $100 to me at this point. Second rate in every way, shape and form. I still love the game of hockey and like to watch it played at a high level, so I'll stick around to see what happens next (maybe we'll get a real league from the ashes, no southern or half-ass western teams, no dilution of talent, no half empty stands).

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12-13-2012, 10:00 AM
  #502
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
No progress yesterday, probably no further meetings today. Players are either going to backtrack and accept the last set of terms proposed by the league, sometime before Christmas, or the season is over.

At this point, as a fan I won't even accept a deal from DirecTV on Center Ice (say they get a half season in), unless they literally charge me $5/month for it. I am paying less than $50 for every remaining televised game, or I'm canceling. An NHL season isn't even worth $100 to me at this point. Second rate in every way, shape and form. I still love the game of hockey and like to watch it played at a high level, so I'll stick around to see what happens next (maybe we'll get a real league from the ashes, no southern or half-ass western teams, no dilution of talent, no half empty stands).
If the bolded are something you are looking for, then you might as well stop watching

There might be one southern relocation in the next few seasons but that's it. That and re-alignment and the rest will be the same.

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12-13-2012, 10:05 AM
  #503
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If the bolded are something you are looking for, then you might as well stop watching

There might be one southern relocation in the next few seasons but that's it. That and re-alignment and the rest will be the same.
A man can dream...


Of pure hockey... free of goons and scrubs. Played in northerly climates (or where the winters are at least moderately cold)... on rinks where the ice is still decent in April, attended by beer drinking people with families and rusky caps.



That's pretty much yer ideal hockey family right there. Some call me crazy... some... call me visionary.


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12-13-2012, 10:06 AM
  #504
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I think at this point, it's pretty apparent that the league has drawn a line in the sand and will not budge on many other issues. The player's have (or had, depending on what the Fehr's are saying now) basically already agreed to most of the core economic issues so the league has little incentive to give in on contracting rights. I could see, at best, the league moving max contracts to 6 years for UFA's and 8 to stay with team. That still seems reasonable to me. They will absolutely hold their ground on the 5% year to year pay variance. Stopping the back diving contracts was one of the biggest issues this time around.

So now, for right or wrong, better or worse, it's up to the players to either be willing to play on the league's terms or hold out just to prove a point. In the end, I can't see their deal getting any better if a season is cancelled.

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12-13-2012, 10:32 AM
  #505
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If something doesn't get worked out by the end of this week, I have little doubt Fehr will file a DOI. He will use every ounce of leverage he has left.

If he does, this process will literally drag out until the last possible minute, sadly.

This is like watching Steve-O and Johnny Knoxville daring each other to set their nutsacks on fire and neither one is smart enough to think about the damage it will do.

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12-13-2012, 10:57 AM
  #506
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If something doesn't get worked out by the end of this week, I have little doubt Fehr will file a DOI. He will use every ounce of leverage he has left.

If he does, this process will literally drag out until the last possible minute, sadly.

This is like watching Steve-O and Johnny Knoxville daring each other to set their nutsacks on fire and neither one is smart enough to think about the damage it will do.



The moderates wrung almost (keyword almost) every last bit they could out of the hard line owners last week. Fehr is too (egotistical?, Idiotic?, Insane?, Incompetent?) dunno what adjective is best. But he reached to far last week by getting the players to hold out for more. How can the players be this dumb?

Hmm. I want 300M in make whole money, and to prove it. I will lose 412M (25% of the season) or more in wages this season. Um ok....
Sure there are nuances to the contracting rights and all. But still some basic math skills are needed here.

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12-13-2012, 11:56 AM
  #507
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
If the bolded are something you are looking for, then you might as well stop watching

There might be one southern relocation in the next few seasons but that's it. That and re-alignment and the rest will be the same.
I see it from canadian folks with the hostility towards southern and western markets but you'd think a Penguins fan with how close this team came to relocating due to failure to fill the building and make money would at least have a little understanding that excitement and winning fills buildings and makes money, not simply just having a hockey team.

Those southern and western markets are the only thing that is ever going to bring the NHL into any sort of relevancy in the sports world. Those markets bring revenue now into the league with their increased tv deal due to the markets they're in. And also down the road lead to huge gains in future revenues that take decades to develop but have much larger financial windfalls.

Another issue is athletes, even up north a very athletic individual will be pressured to play a lot of different sports. Mostly though they tend to go with Football or Basketball and abandon the other sports, some do baseball too as that has lost a lot of footing in america in recent decades. Hockey is an afterthought, the best athletes in America are simply not playing Hockey and it's largely due to the potential money vs the other big sports and the national acceptance of the sport in general. Having the sport be a northern/canadian only sport only further puts the sport into a niche category and makes for even less Americans playing the sport.

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12-13-2012, 12:09 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
I see it from canadian folks with the hostility towards southern and western markets but you'd think a Penguins fan with how close this team came to relocating due to failure to fill the building and make money would at least have a little understanding that excitement and winning fills buildings and makes money, not simply just having a hockey team.

Those southern and western markets are the only thing that is ever going to bring the NHL into any sort of relevancy in the sports world. Those markets bring revenue now into the league with their increased tv deal due to the markets they're in. And also down the road lead to huge gains in future revenues that take decades to develop but have much larger financial windfalls.

Another issue is athletes, even up north a very athletic individual will be pressured to play a lot of different sports. Mostly though they tend to go with Football or Basketball and abandon the other sports, some do baseball too as that has lost a lot of footing in america in recent decades. Hockey is an afterthought, the best athletes in America are simply not playing Hockey and it's largely due to the potential money vs the other big sports and the national acceptance of the sport in general. Having the sport be a northern/canadian only sport only further puts the sport into a niche category and makes for even less Americans playing the sport.
I definitely agree with you on this issue. IF the NHL wants to grow the game in the US, and that's the assumption I am going on, then they absolutely have to tap into riskier markets. The only issue I have is how long do you prop up a team before it is not sustainable (Phoenix). Many don't seem to really care if more Americans are playing the game as there are so many talented athletes across the globe playing hockey, but I am a proponent of growing the game in the US.

I will say I don't think the choice against hockey has to do with potential earning power. There are several major barriers:

1.) Access and knowledge of the game. Most Americans don't really understand hockey and there isn't much access for children not from hockey families to be exposed to it. It's not pushed in schools, there aren't free outdoor arenas/courts to play on at playground like basketball.

2.) Cost. Let's face it, hockey is a very expensive sport. True access to hockey is limited to upper middle/upper classes. Basketball, football, and baseball are accessible and affordable for the majority of the population. Plus, there are traditional means in nearly every city of achieving success to the next level. For example, it's very common for basketball and football players to come from public schools and go into college then pros. With hockey, unless you live in Canada, Mass, Michigan, or Minnesota, your family likely will have to send you to another market to live with a host family to be seen by scouts. That is a huge, huge cost to families and why many can't afford to make it.

These issues take time to correct. As the game grows, local leagues strengthen and the need for traveling lessen which brings down cost. I guess the real question is whether or not the NHL and NHLPA see these as priorities for the future.

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12-13-2012, 12:12 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
I see it from canadian folks with the hostility towards southern and western markets but you'd think a Penguins fan with how close this team came to relocating due to failure to fill the building and make money would at least have a little understanding that excitement and winning fills buildings and makes money, not simply just having a hockey team.

Those southern and western markets are the only thing that is ever going to bring the NHL into any sort of relevancy in the sports world. Those markets bring revenue now into the league with their increased tv deal due to the markets they're in. And also down the road lead to huge gains in future revenues that take decades to develop but have much larger financial windfalls.

Another issue is athletes, even up north a very athletic individual will be pressured to play a lot of different sports. Mostly though they tend to go with Football or Basketball and abandon the other sports, some do baseball too as that has lost a lot of footing in america in recent decades. Hockey is an afterthought, the best athletes in America are simply not playing Hockey and it's largely due to the potential money vs the other big sports and the national acceptance of the sport in general. Having the sport be a northern/canadian only sport only further puts the sport into a niche category and makes for even less Americans playing the sport.
Well said.

Shady Machine as well.

Im not sure why the "damn you southern markets" sentiment should pop up here. Its not like owners wouldnt still be crying thier broke even taking some of them away. Unless you want a league made up of the original 6, 12 canadian teams and a few other american squads. Until those american teams go down the toilet and thier fans spend a little more money on NFL, NBA, MLS while they rebuild. Then what? League has to grow to be strong enough for markets to survive the ebbs n flows. Lots of other things for americans to spend money on.


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12-13-2012, 12:35 PM
  #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
I see it from canadian folks with the hostility towards southern and western markets but you'd think a Penguins fan with how close this team came to relocating due to failure to fill the building and make money would at least have a little understanding that excitement and winning fills buildings and makes money, not simply just having a hockey team.

Those southern and western markets are the only thing that is ever going to bring the NHL into any sort of relevancy in the sports world. Those markets bring revenue now into the league with their increased tv deal due to the markets they're in. And also down the road lead to huge gains in future revenues that take decades to develop but have much larger financial windfalls.

Another issue is athletes, even up north a very athletic individual will be pressured to play a lot of different sports. Mostly though they tend to go with Football or Basketball and abandon the other sports, some do baseball too as that has lost a lot of footing in america in recent decades. Hockey is an afterthought, the best athletes in America are simply not playing Hockey and it's largely due to the potential money vs the other big sports and the national acceptance of the sport in general. Having the sport be a northern/canadian only sport only further puts the sport into a niche category and makes for even less Americans playing the sport.
When and if synthetic ice becomes more affordable the people of all regions will be able to relate to the sport more.

I was at the food court in the Pittsburgh Mills Mall, and they have a setup of synthetic ice like 20' x 16' and they told me that it cost $40,000 for that size and they custom cut each panel to interlock together. The Hockey n that in Aspinwall has a garage that's has some 12 x 16 surface cost them $7000.

They need to get this more available for public use if they want the sport to grow and let the public actually get accustom to the sport. To pay for ice time is what makes it so hard to get everyone in, but if local communities put them in their parks like Dek hockey is available things will progress much faster.

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12-13-2012, 12:44 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
When and if synthetic ice becomes more affordable the people of all regions will be able to relate to the sport more.

I was at the food court in the Pittsburgh Mills Mall, and they have a setup of synthetic ice like 20' x 16' and they told me that it cost $40,000 for that size and they custom cut each panel to interlock together. The Hockey n that in Aspinwall has a garage that's has some 12 x 16 surface cost them $7000.

They need to get this more available for public use if they want the sport to grow and let the public actually get accustom to the sport. To pay for ice time is what makes it so hard to get everyone in, but if local communities put them in their parks like Dek hockey is available things will progress much faster.
While I agree the synthetic ice is a useful tool, that's not really the issue. All it takes to get the hockey itch is to have a "rink" made of asphalt or pavement, 2 nets and some wooden boards at local parks. A few places in the Pittsburgh area had it when I grew up (Brady's Run Park in Chippewa and this park in Penn Trafford where I used to play nearly every day as a little kid). It's so easy to come home from school grab a basketball and head to the park. If parks had those types of hockey rinks then you just need a stick and a ball.

Once you learn to love the game, roller and local ice teams are feasible. You can realistically build most of your skills off the ice at a younger age. It's when you get to 14-16 that playing in the travel leagues that cost thousands a year become almost a necessity to make it to the next level.

Pittsburgh has improved on this but it took a lot of time. Since college I've lived in Cleveland and it's amazing how little hockey there is here in the culture of communities. There zero dek hockey rinks, zero parks with paved rinks, and 1 indoor roller hockey rink that's 40 minutes from the city. The major difference between Cleveland and Pittsburgh are the Penguins. That's it. There are a few elite private schools with great programs but unless you are from a hockey background and have money, you aren't playing.

Which is the point and the reason why pro teams are necessary to grow the game. Most people against the southern or non traditional markets teams are those that don't think growing the game is a priority.

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12-13-2012, 01:07 PM
  #512
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Rinks are so much more common everywhere now than even back as recently as 20 or so years ago. Even down south in Florida you can find an ice rink much more readily and street hockey is also a thing to get into there as well. Yeah up north you have the possibility of playing on a pond but that is a rarer and rarer occurance as it takes a lot of things going right for that to happen. You need a few days of sub 32 degree weather with no snow before that to ensure a nice frozen surface. That rarely happens during the winter and there's maybe a handful of days that you can actually play on a pond during a winter, at least around here that's the case. So with the rinks being everywhere and street hockey being easy to play I don't see at all why the sport can't succeed in warmer climates, theres really not much of an advantage in the north other than a handful of days a year that you could potentially play on a pond.

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12-13-2012, 01:25 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
When and if synthetic ice becomes more affordable the people of all regions will be able to relate to the sport more.

I was at the food court in the Pittsburgh Mills Mall, and they have a setup of synthetic ice like 20' x 16' and they told me that it cost $40,000 for that size and they custom cut each panel to interlock together. The Hockey n that in Aspinwall has a garage that's has some 12 x 16 surface cost them $7000.

They need to get this more available for public use if they want the sport to grow and let the public actually get accustom to the sport. To pay for ice time is what makes it so hard to get everyone in, but if local communities put them in their parks like Dek hockey is available things will progress much faster.
I think a greater focus on Dek hockey would definitely help grow the sport. It's the basic & cheapest way to play. To get started with football all you need is a ball. Then if the kid gets interested enough then you buy his padding, helmet, cleats, etc.

You look at Wayne's World where they call game on/game off because they're playing in the street. That's sort of a problem.

Although even with the entry level interest, hockey's the most expensive sport for a kid to play. I think that's probably the biggest reason why it's a niche sport.

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12-13-2012, 01:56 PM
  #514
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“The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile, but that it is indifferent. If we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death, our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfillment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light.” - Stanley Kubrick
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12-13-2012, 05:22 PM
  #515
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Doesn't sound like PA is willing to work with the NHL's 3 main issues. League responded by saying it won't budge. No progress. As you were.
buh-bye 2012-2013 season

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12-13-2012, 06:58 PM
  #516
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If something doesn't get worked out by the end of this week, I have little doubt Fehr will file a DOI. He will use every ounce of leverage he has left.

If he does, this process will literally drag out until the last possible minute, sadly.

This is like watching Steve-O and Johnny Knoxville daring each other to set their nutsacks on fire and neither one is smart enough to think about the damage it will do.
If it prevented them from reproducing I'd say it's a net win for humanity.


BTW Gooch et al:

My post above (with the hats) was partly sarcastic WRT to "a pure game of the icy north" sentiments. However at a certain point you have to acknowledge that "expanding everywhere because the other sports are everywhere" is a stupid approach. The bottom line is, until hockey IS available in schools and free rinks and stuff like that there are many places in the southern US in particular and SW US, where it will remain forever irrelevant. Sports gets in your blood when you're a kid playing it, not because the NHL plunked a franchise in Florida or AZ and said "look, snowbirds here... they'll bring their love of hockey!"

It's a short-sighted situation. Of all those teams that were built, only Nashville and Carolina have enjoyed some success and continued popularity even when they don't go far in the playoffs. The other franchises have been fan disasters. Contracting this league by a couple teams at least, would make the product better on the ice, better positioned financially, and would just make more sense. FLA and PHX are the two obvious candidates. ANA and TB are possibilities if they continue to struggle with ticket sales, despite the talent on their rosters.

And I don't relate to the whole "oooo, if you're a Pittsburgh fan you can never question those markets because we almost lost a team!" Irrelevant. Pittsburgh's problems were managerial, not the absence of hockey town culture. Pittsburgh is a great hockey town. People care about hockey in Pittsburgh whereas in some other markets the only way to make anyone care, is go far in the playoffs. ATL was such a town, and moving that ill-conceived franchise to WPG was the smartest thing the NHL could've done.


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12-13-2012, 06:59 PM
  #517
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No progress yesterday, probably no further meetings today. Players are either going to backtrack and accept the last set of terms proposed by the league, sometime before Christmas, or the season is over.

At this point, as a fan I won't even accept a deal from DirecTV on Center Ice (say they get a half season in), unless they literally charge me $5/month for it. I am paying less than $50 for every remaining televised game, or I'm canceling. An NHL season isn't even worth $100 to me at this point. Second rate in every way, shape and form. I still love the game of hockey and like to watch it played at a high level, so I'll stick around to see what happens next (maybe we'll get a real league from the ashes, no southern or half-ass western teams, no dilution of talent, no half empty stands).

I expect more from my mods than petty market bashing, but maybe I shouldn't.

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12-13-2012, 07:09 PM
  #518
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I expect more from my mods than petty market bashing, but maybe I shouldn't.


All right, I'll stop because I know few people agree with me. See above for clarifications. I was mostly just pissed off / ranting because Fehr made me do it.

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12-13-2012, 07:12 PM
  #519
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I'd like to conclude my re-alignment comments with this.


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12-13-2012, 07:31 PM
  #520
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I don't like the "southern market bad, northern market good" but I do think there are some real opportunities to look at markets that might not be viable long term (aka PHX). I'm very surprised Seattle still doesn't have a hockey team - I've always thought that was a really promising market even when the Sonics were there.

Anyways that has little to do with the lockout - I think pretty much everyone at this point who is looking at this from a rational perspective feels like the players really overplayed their hand. There was all sorts of positive vibes last week and that just doesn't exist right now. Very disappointing.

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12-13-2012, 07:53 PM
  #521
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"Sports gets in your blood when you're a kid playing it, not because the NHL plunked a franchise in Florida or AZ and said "look, snowbirds here... they'll bring their love of hockey!""


CV I'd go into more detail, but truthfully I'm not going to bother because you see, I've never played hockey in my life, can't even ice skate, and didn't get into it until after I was 8. It's not like I stick out I mean, I taught myself how to read box scores from the paper, read up on the history, taped every Penguins game on ESPN for years, could tell you about hockey being stagnated in Texas before the Stars and how the game has grown since, etc, but it'll never be good enough because according to you and many others hockey's not in my blood. I may come from the South and didn't grow up with the game, but I have been growing with it since. You'd think my love for it and what I did to stick with it would be good enough, but apparently it's still not.


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12-13-2012, 08:34 PM
  #522
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I don't like the "southern market bad, northern market good" but I do think there are some real opportunities to look at markets that might not be viable long term (aka PHX). I'm very surprised Seattle still doesn't have a hockey team - I've always thought that was a really promising market even when the Sonics were there.

Anyways that has little to do with the lockout - I think pretty much everyone at this point who is looking at this from a rational perspective feels like the players really overplayed their hand. There was all sorts of positive vibes last week and that just doesn't exist right now. Very disappointing.
Sonics old owner had them redesign stadium in early 90's to make it not-viable for NHL team

NHL did look into Seattle in early 90's expansion bids

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12-13-2012, 10:02 PM
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"Sports gets in your blood when you're a kid playing it, not because the NHL plunked a franchise in Florida or AZ and said "look, snowbirds here... they'll bring their love of hockey!""


CV I'd go into more detail, but truthfully I'm not going to bother because you see, I've never played hockey in my life, can't even ice skate, and didn't get into it until after I was 8. It's not like I stick out I mean, I taught myself how to read box scores from the paper, read up on the history, taped every Penguins game on ESPN for years, could tell you about hockey being stagnated in Texas before the Stars and how the game has grown since, etc, but it'll never be good enough because according to you and many others hockey's not in my blood. I may come from the South and didn't grow up with the game, but I have been growing with it since. You'd think my love for it and what I did to stick with it would be good enough, but apparently it's still not.
Well said! I love the rationalization people try and do about Pittsburgh almost losing the Pens. It is pretty damn simple, no Sid, no Penguins in Pittsburgh. What do you think he would have done for hockey in Phoenix? Or Nashville, Columbus, hell, even Atlanta.

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12-14-2012, 02:38 AM
  #524
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Originally Posted by KaylaJ View Post
"Sports gets in your blood when you're a kid playing it, not because the NHL plunked a franchise in Florida or AZ and said "look, snowbirds here... they'll bring their love of hockey!""


CV I'd go into more detail, but truthfully I'm not going to bother because you see, I've never played hockey in my life, can't even ice skate, and didn't get into it until after I was 8. It's not like I stick out I mean, I taught myself how to read box scores from the paper, read up on the history, taped every Penguins game on ESPN for years, could tell you about hockey being stagnated in Texas before the Stars and how the game has grown since, etc, but it'll never be good enough because according to you and many others hockey's not in my blood. I may come from the South and didn't grow up with the game, but I have been growing with it since. You'd think my love for it and what I did to stick with it would be good enough, but apparently it's still not.
I followed a similar path. Grew up in California, moved to Pittsburgh in 81 at 13, "discovered hockey" played on the streets, then a little pond hockey, followed by a ton of Deck Hockey. Developed the big shot via slow motion replays of NHL players shooting on VCR tapes....

I think I would have played high school hockey if we moved to an NHL market sooner.... Food for thought.

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12-14-2012, 08:27 AM
  #525
Ogrezilla
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If it prevented them from reproducing I'd say it's a net win for humanity.


BTW Gooch et al:

My post above (with the hats) was partly sarcastic WRT to "a pure game of the icy north" sentiments. However at a certain point you have to acknowledge that "expanding everywhere because the other sports are everywhere" is a stupid approach. The bottom line is, until hockey IS available in schools and free rinks and stuff like that there are many places in the southern US in particular and SW US, where it will remain forever irrelevant. Sports gets in your blood when you're a kid playing it, not because the NHL plunked a franchise in Florida or AZ and said "look, snowbirds here... they'll bring their love of hockey!"

It's a short-sighted situation. Of all those teams that were built, only Nashville and Carolina have enjoyed some success and continued popularity even when they don't go far in the playoffs. The other franchises have been fan disasters. Contracting this league by a couple teams at least, would make the product better on the ice, better positioned financially, and would just make more sense. FLA and PHX are the two obvious candidates. ANA and TB are possibilities if they continue to struggle with ticket sales, despite the talent on their rosters.

And I don't relate to the whole "oooo, if you're a Pittsburgh fan you can never question those markets because we almost lost a team!" Irrelevant. Pittsburgh's problems were managerial, not the absence of hockey town culture. Pittsburgh is a great hockey town. People care about hockey in Pittsburgh whereas in some other markets the only way to make anyone care, is go far in the playoffs. ATL was such a town, and moving that ill-conceived franchise to WPG was the smartest thing the NHL could've done.
CV, I know we've discussed this before. You seem to want the NHL to keep teams in markets which will build a large fan base very quickly and keep that fan base when struggling. I don't know if I've ever gotten an answer to this question. Which teams quickly built a huge fan base without a successful team AND kept the huge fan base when the team stopped being successful? I'm pretty sure its a very short list. Pittsburgh sure as hell isn't on it.

I still think you are being very short sited on this topic. Would Pittsburgh be such a good hockey town if we had never had guys like Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby and Malkin? It certainly wasn't a hockey town before those guys showed up. And it was much less of a hockey town in the gap when the team wasn't doing well. And I don't know how you can blame management for us and then dismiss the Atlanta situation as just a bad hockey market. That was one of the most poorly managed teams to ever exist. I have no problem with the move, but I don't think there should be any more moves to Canada. The population just isn't there.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 12-14-2012 at 08:35 AM.
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