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NHL Lockout XXVIII: Don't worry about the lockout. Let me worry about blank.

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Old
12-13-2012, 08:13 PM
  #926
One7nine
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Originally Posted by Richie to Brownie View Post
I'm curious for people's opinions here, what do you guys think happens to the PA and the league for that matter if this season is lost? Will it be good or bad for either side? (obviously it will be bad for both parties but as far as maybe negotiating the next CBA or just an ego or psychological win for either side)
I don't know how the league (players and owners included) expect to keep coming back if they are going to go through this every couple of years.

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12-13-2012, 08:13 PM
  #927
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
And that's where I think Gary fails more often than not. Daily hockey stuff.
is that why the nhl is getting record revenues?

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12-13-2012, 08:14 PM
  #928
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Holding out any longer just doesn't make any sence for the players. They have been consession bargaining from the beginning. The NHL talks about bargaining against itself, but each time they make an offer they offer to take just a little bit less from the players compared to their previous offer. From what we are told is left on the table there is very little left to be gained, and will impact less than 10% of current players. However they keep grinding away in the name of "victory". At an average salary of $ 2.4 M divided be 15 bi-weekly paychecks = $ 160,000 per lost paycheck. So basically to gain a year less on the CBA length or a year more on contract lengths that will impact very few of them they are sacrificing $160,000 every 2 weeks. At this point I just don't get it

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Old
12-13-2012, 08:19 PM
  #929
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i feel that if the nhl wins this and they get what they want that the league will pretty much remain as what it is now. i would hate this because its a watered down league with this many teams.

if the players hold out and a season is cancelled then at least there would be drastic change but i am sure they know that. if they dont give in then next year(or whenever it is resolved) there with be a smaller league with fewer players so they would lose anyway.

its a no win situation for players

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12-13-2012, 08:19 PM
  #930
Ugene Malkin
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is that why the nhl is getting record revenues?
Does getting calls wrong on protocol such as punishment or suspensions do anything for revenues?

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12-13-2012, 08:19 PM
  #931
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Why do I need to elaborate? The NHL doesn't exist without the top 700 players in the world; the nhl can exist without the owners: They are merely place-holders. The community could run the franchises if they chose to and if the population wanted them to. Ron Burkle is not needed in the best hockey league in the world, Sidney Crosby is.
I disagree... Both groups need eachother. How many community teams are there in a major sport? As far as I know only one. It would be insanity to have a whole league run by communities, even I'd you elected figureheads... If anything I'd argue the opposite, theres a MUCH higher supply of people who want to play professional hockey than there are people who can afford to own a team... Would the level of competition go down? Absolutely, but it would still be the NHL without the best players...

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Old
12-13-2012, 08:24 PM
  #932
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The league seems really good at giving ultimatums that never prove as final as they sound. I think NHL would be well advised to just bargain like adults instead of issuing ridiculous ultimatums that get ignored a couple of days later. The scare tactics don't seem to be impressing Fehr too much and he looks pretty cool under fire recently.
Bargaining like adults is an idea that should apply to both parties.

That said, I think a drop dead date is a good idea at this point. And it should be short notice, no more than 7 days from the date of announcement. Then axe the season if they don't come to an agreement. It's time.

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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Millions of dollars.
Yep, some owners stand to lose millions of dollars. Luckily for them, they're not reliant on their hockey teams for their incomes. The players, who also stand to lose millions of dollars, are going to hurt a lot more because of that than the owners will.

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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
Like the agent said he was brought here to "win" not to get a deal done, otherwise he would have negotiated off the Oct. offer for an 82 game schedule and make whole.
Yep, and the moment that mindset was adopted, the PA lost. They lost this negotiation not in the last few weeks or months, they lost it the day they hired Fehr as their man to get them revenge. At that moment their focus officially shifted from getting a good or fair deal and that pretty much guaranteed they weren't going to get the best deal they could have otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Raider917 View Post
i heard pierre lebrun say that if there is a cancelled season, that he thinks that there will need to be contraction. i wish this could happen. i am all for no season if it can.
Excellent idea, as long as you're willing to offer up your favorite team as the first on the list to be contracted!

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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
I don't care what you or anyone thinks about how much the union is fractured. That kind of argument is a waste of time because neither of you can prove anything.
This has been pointed out more than once already.

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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Why do I need to elaborate? The NHL doesn't exist without the top 700 players in the world; the nhl can exist without the owners: They are merely place-holders. The community could run the franchises if they chose to and if the population wanted them to. Ron Burkle is not needed in the best hockey league in the world, Sidney Crosby is.
The communities could run the franchises? Is it really feasible to think that the 30 owners are just going to suddenly agree to up and walk away from their franchises and sweet arena deals that earn them boatloads of cash?

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Old
12-13-2012, 08:24 PM
  #933
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Originally Posted by Noreaster96 View Post
I disagree... Both groups need eachother. How many community teams are there in a major sport? As far as I know only one. It would be insanity to have a whole league run by communities, even I'd you elected figureheads... If anything I'd argue the opposite, theres a MUCH higher supply of people who want to play professional hockey than there are people who can afford to own a team... Would the level of competition go down? Absolutely, but it would still be the NHL without the best players...
I 100% agree. As long as they hand out the Stanley Cup, then people will watch it.

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Old
12-13-2012, 08:25 PM
  #934
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Does getting calls wrong on protocol such as punishment or suspensions do anything for revenues?
Ask NASCAR, which has erupted in the last 20 years despite playing fast and loose with "rules" and "punishments" for the entire time.

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Old
12-13-2012, 08:31 PM
  #935
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Originally Posted by PyrettaBlaze View Post
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the kind words. Really appreciate it!
That is awesome news man.

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Old
12-13-2012, 08:33 PM
  #936
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post

Excellent idea, as long as you're willing to offer up your favorite team as the first on the list to be contracted!


if the Canadiens were forced to leave the NHL i wouldnt be unhappy. they are older than the league. they wouldnt cease as a organization and could join another league. i will follow where ever they go. the only reason the NHL is interesting is the Canadiens to me.

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12-13-2012, 08:35 PM
  #937
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Originally Posted by FanSince2012 View Post
Oh, your boss said it?

I'm just gonna get off HFBoards for the next 2-3 weeks.

His boss said it.

The question posed (that I quoted) was "if you're a mid-tier guy are you okay with the PA pushing it to the deadline." In the first paragraph I was responding to the question as if I was a mid-tier member of the NHLPA. "My boss" therefore referring to Donald Fehr.

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Old
12-13-2012, 08:36 PM
  #938
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Why do I need to elaborate? The NHL doesn't exist without the top 700 players in the world; the nhl can exist without the owners: They are merely place-holders. The community could run the franchises if they chose to and if the population wanted them to. Ron Burkle is not needed in the best hockey league in the world, Sidney Crosby is.
I think this is a falacy. I would agree the NHL can't exist without the best 50-100 hockey players in the world, but top 700, really? I would say most of the players are interchangable parts. These players are the ones that are overpayed. The stars deserve every cent they earn, but do most fans care if Alec Martinez, Justin Braun, Ben Eager, Steve Bernier, or Jay McClement are on their team? I can list 400 more names if you like.....

There are thousands of more players that could take their places and none of us would know the difference.

The best comparable industry to pro sports would be Radio or TV. The talent is the product. The stars make all the money, and the ancillary people make jack. They are replacable, and are replaced all the time. Do you think DJ's make 57% of the revenue? I doubt it.

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12-13-2012, 08:37 PM
  #939
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Originally Posted by flyers28giroux View Post
I guess the players did not learn their lesson eight years ago, and assume that they are going to win this battle which is not going to happen. It's pretty sad to watch.
Unfortunatly it is. They fought against a salary cap in 04 knowing they were getting 75% of HRR and knowing that the league could not function any longer but yet would still fight to keep it????? WFT does that tell you about the mentality of this group? They will bite the hands that feed them and cut their nose off their own face. They went down in 04 and they deserved it.....frotunatly for them things turned out wayyyy better then they could have imagined and their salaries have almost doubled....yet they are still pissed.

Trying to make sense of the PA is useless, it started with Eagleson years ago then Goodenow and Saskin, they finally get a guy everybody seems to trust in Kelly then have a midnight lynchmob take him out and bring in Fehr......the minute I heard they brought Fehr in I put my head down....and said.....half a season at best......and that was a long time ago.....and here we are.

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Old
12-13-2012, 08:44 PM
  #940
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Yes. I got news this morning that I'm cancer free so now's the time for me to be happy. No more negativity for me.
this is great news, just in time for the holidays.

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Old
12-13-2012, 08:48 PM
  #941
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this is great news, just in time for the holidays.
Gotta give a huge congrats to this as well! Unreal news !

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Old
12-13-2012, 08:50 PM
  #942
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Originally Posted by Kings4thecup View Post
I think this is a falacy. I would agree the NHL can't exist without the best 50-100 hockey players in the world, but top 700, really? I would say most of the players are interchangable parts. These players are the ones that are overpayed. The stars deserve every cent they earn, but do most fans care if Alec Martinez, Justin Braun, Ben Eager, Steve Bernier, or Jay McClement are on their team? I can list 400 more names if you like.....

There are thousands of more players that could take their places and none of us would know the difference.

The best comparable industry to pro sports would be Radio or TV. The talent is the product. The stars make all the money, and the ancillary people make jack. They are replacable, and are replaced all the time. Do you think DJ's make 57% of the revenue? I doubt it.
I disagree. 50-100 players is only 2-3 players per team. Think of the last 25 Stanley Cup Championship teams. Of course, most of them had 2-3 good-to-elite players, but was the rest of the roster "interchangeable?" Hardly. In fact, quite the opposite. Most championship teams win because of their depth. It's the competitive market for second tier players that drives the market for those players up (as opposed to pure lunacy on behalf of the owners). I might agree that the bottom third of NHL players become more interchangeable, but even so, there is a still a discernable drop off between NHL-calibre third/fourth liners and mid-level talent in the AHL/KHL/other second-tier professional leagues.

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Old
12-13-2012, 08:53 PM
  #943
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I think Fehr has always been sceptical of team owners. He's well versed in baseball labor history. He's said that since the late 19th century owners always claim that they're going bankrupt and the fears have never panned out... In the 1994 baseball CBA negotiations, the baseball owners were claiming that 12 to 14 teams (out of 28) were losing money...

Add to that the fact the NHL owners multiply ultimatums, gimmicks, deadlines, temper tantrums, pull deals off the table and yet, like clockwork, always keep upping their offers... The NHL can say anything right now, I'm sure Fehr believes little or nothing and is convinced there's alot more to get from them.

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Old
12-13-2012, 08:57 PM
  #944
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Are they meeting tomorrow or not? Does anyone have a straight freaking answer here?

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12-13-2012, 08:58 PM
  #945
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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
Unfortunatly it is. They fought against a salary cap in 04 knowing they were getting 75% of HRR and knowing that the league could not function any longer but yet would still fight to keep it????? WFT does that tell you about the mentality of this group?
That they fought tooth and nail to maintain a free market for their labor as opposed to a socialized system that the league said would fix the league's problems.

Lo and behold, the league got the system it asked for and *surprise surprise* it isn't working and *surprise surprise* the solution is to pay the players less money!

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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
They will bite the hands that feed them and cut their nose off their own face.
I think you were looking for a different expression.

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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
They went down in 04 and they deserved it.....frotunatly for them things turned out wayyyy better then they could have imagined
I usually try to refrain from being an internet grammar policeman, but I'd be willing to wager that you're one of the guys who gets off by putting the payers down for their educational credentials but couldn't spell your way out of a kindergarten spelling bee.


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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
their salaries have almost doubled....yet they are still pissed.
I can't stand to hear this talking point again. THE PLAYERS' SALARIES INCREASED AS A DIRECT FUNCTION OF LEAGUE-WIDE REVENUE GROWTH. Begrudging them for this makes absolutely no sense.

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12-13-2012, 08:59 PM
  #946
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Are they meeting tomorrow or not? Does anyone have a straight freaking answer here?
Nothing scheduled, they may talk over the phone or set up something in person.

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Old
12-13-2012, 08:59 PM
  #947
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Darren Dreger
Doesn't sound like PA is willing to work with the NHL's 3 main issues. League responded by saying it won't budge. No progress. As you were.
which really shows how dishonest Fehr was in his press conference saying that they were close.

He fully knew what the league wanted, he just hoped to win some PR points saying how they moved towards what the league wanted. They knew it would be refused. Just another Fehr gimmick.

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12-13-2012, 08:59 PM
  #948
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I disagree. 50-100 players is only 2-3 players per team. Think of the last 25 Stanley Cup Championship teams. Of course, most of them had 2-3 good-to-elite players, but was the rest of the roster "interchangeable?" Hardly. In fact, quite the opposite. Most championship teams win because of their depth. It's the competitive market for second tier players that drives the market for those players up (as opposed to pure lunacy on behalf of the owners). I might agree that the bottom third of NHL players become more interchangeable, but even so, there is a still a discernable drop off between NHL-calibre third/fourth liners and mid-level talent in the AHL/KHL/other second-tier professional leagues.
I hear ya. The Kings would have not even come close to winning without Dwight King to push them over the edge...

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12-13-2012, 09:01 PM
  #949
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Remember when daly said they only needed to " tweak" the last CBa..? Yeah...

What... A ... Joke

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12-13-2012, 09:01 PM
  #950
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The economics for the players are horrible. You, as a player, are willing to sacrifice and lose a season and a half of salary - money you will not get back - just to make a point nobody cares about?

There has to be a diagnostic term to describe that kind of collective mental state. "Delusional" just doesn't seem to cover it anymore.
I'd go with narcissism.

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