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History of the Loser Point

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Old
12-13-2012, 10:03 PM
  #26
Modo
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At the end of the day, one team is walking away with more points than when they started, despite the fact that they lost the game.

So it'll always be a loser point in my books.

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12-13-2012, 10:12 PM
  #27
CpatainCanuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modo View Post
At the end of the day, one team is walking away with more points than when they started, despite the fact that they lost the game.

So it'll always be a loser point in my books.
But I think reasonable people don't consider losing in a gimmick like a shootout or 4 on 4 overtime is a "real" loss and shouldn't carry the same significance as a regulation loss...therefore the 3rd point is the that gimmick win point.

I've always thought a 3 point system would be better. 3 wins for a regulation win, 2 for an overtime/shootout win, 1 for an overtime/shootout loss, and 0 for a regulation loss. Every game gives out equal points, and players will have incentive to push to win in regulation and in overtime.

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12-13-2012, 10:16 PM
  #28
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The nhl should be using the 3 points for a win with their current setup since playoff position is still based on points and not wins. However, to make their current system have any logical sense they could award tie points to teams who have finished 60 minutes and 5 overtime at a tie. Then after the gimmick tv wrapup shootout they could award the extra point to the shootout winn....wait nevermind its still ridiculous until all games are worth the same points, 3. Either that or switch to wins like every other sports league

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Old
12-13-2012, 10:23 PM
  #29
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the fact that some games are worth 3 points and others are worth 2 points make the whole system stupid.

Florida took advantage of this last year.

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Old
12-13-2012, 10:37 PM
  #30
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Hockey is definitely closer to soccer when it comes to score and time management than the other major sports, for many reasons.

There is clear distinction of offense vs defense in baseball/basketball/NFL. Baseball and NFL are self-explanatory. In basketball plays are more free-flow, but if you want you can use up the whole shot clock without fear of losing possession, whether you score at the end of the possession is another problem.

In hockey/soccer, the transition from offense to defense occurs in a split second, without real control from either team. So with fear of losing an otherwise tied game, without extra incentive players become extremely passive near the end of the game. Soccer leagues realized the problem and give 3 points to a win vs 1 point for a tie. NHL choose to have the guaranteed point once you reach OT. You can debate which system is superior, but simply rid of the "loser point" is not an option: just watch some mid 90s hockey or World/Euro Cup soccer during elimination rounds between 2 closely-matched teams and see how boring they are.

Furthermore, baseball, basketball and NFL all have scoring plays that occur very often. As a result, first it's unlikely for a game to end in a tie after regulation (compare with hockey and soccer), and rarely can you get extensive over time play while the score are still tied. You can demand MLB/NBA/NFL games to end with a clear winner and loser and treat them as regular win/loss. Since North American audience hate ties, for regular season NHL games you have 4-on-4 OT and then the shootout to force a win. The reward for reaching OT gets the bad name of "loser point".

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12-13-2012, 10:43 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flashy View Post
the fact that some games are worth 3 points and others are worth 2 points make the whole system stupid.

Florida took advantage of this last year.
You're thinking of it wrong: how could Florida have taken advantage of it when they had one of the worst overtime/shootout record in the league? New Jersey and Colorado are the ones who benefitted most from the format...they each had 16 overtime and shootout wins that would have only been ties in the old system.

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Old
12-13-2012, 10:47 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flashy View Post
the fact that some games are worth 3 points and others are worth 2 points make the whole system stupid.

Florida took advantage of this last year.
Why do all games have to be worth the same amount of points?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
You're thinking of it wrong: how could Florida have taken advantage of it when they had one of the worst overtime/shootout record in the league? New Jersey and Colorado are the ones who benefitted most from the format...they each had 16 overtime and shootout wins that would have only been ties in the old system.
Precisely.

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Old
12-13-2012, 10:47 PM
  #33
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I'm honestly encouraged by how many comments noted that it's technically a tie point, not a loser point.

Say what you will about HF, but this is probably the only place on the Internet where a substantial percentage of comments would pick up on that.

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Old
12-13-2012, 11:13 PM
  #34
ponder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modo View Post
At the end of the day, one team is walking away with more points than when they started, despite the fact that they lost the game.

So it'll always be a loser point in my books.
Agreed. Whether you lose the game in regulation, OT or a shootout, you know the players, fans, everyone consider it a loss. They're bummed. However, when you lose in OT or a shootout, you get a point, but when you lose in regulation you don't. You lose the game and get a point, I see no problem with calling it a loser point. As other have noted, in the other major North American team sports leagues (NBA, MLB and NFL) you do not get a point for losing after the end of regulation, you simply win or lose.

I see why loser points were introduced. Teams were often too passive in OT, they were often playing for the tie instead of the win. So the NHL introduced loser points to encourage them to really go for that win. I don't like the idea of some games having 3 points available, and other games having 2 available, but whatever, I do see the logic. However, a few years after loser points were introduced, the NHL eliminated ties! There's no "playing for a tie" anymore, because there are no ties. Every game has a winner and a loser, the whole points system was only there in the first place to deal with ties, so you'd think we'd just go to wins and losses, right? But no, for some reason we kept the loser point.

I personally think loser points are there for fans of bad teams to feel better about themselves. Fans are like "hey, we're 31-26-9, we're doing alright!" We count OT and SO wins the same as regulation wings, but we separate OT and SO losses from regulation losses to make them seem less bad. 31-26-9 doesn't look bad, you probably think "playoffs in sight!," but really it's 31 wins and 35 losses, a well below average team.


Last edited by ponder: 12-14-2012 at 02:00 PM.
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Old
12-14-2012, 12:03 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modo View Post
At the end of the day, one team is walking away with more points than when they started, despite the fact that they lost the game.

So it'll always be a loser point in my books.
But they didn't lose the game. They tied the game and then lost some other game that happens after it which is completely unrelated to the first game.

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:07 AM
  #36
CpatainCanuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
But they didn't lose the game. They tied the game and then lost some other game that happens after it which is completely unrelated to the first game.
Why the sarcasm...makes sense to me. I'll wait until NBA, MLB, or NFL games are decided by skill contests before I'll concede the shootout is a fitting part of an nhl game.

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:09 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
I didn't mean created as in created in 1917. I meant the current system.

The current points system exists because there are different types of wins and losses. Not the other way around.
The only reason ANY points system exists is because of ties. If there were no ties in the beginning, there would just be wins and losses. The very concept of a points system, the one the current system stemmed from, is based on ties. Whether you meant it or not, it DOES go back to 1917. The whole points caboose, encompassing the current system was created then because of ties. Which goes back to my original issue: why is there a points system if there's no longer ties?

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:15 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
Why the sarcasm...makes sense to me. I'll wait until NBA, MLB, or NFL games are decided by skill contests before I'll concede the shootout is a fitting part of an nhl game.
Ok then we'll just play all night til there's a winner like they do in the NBA and MLB. (the NFL has a tie every 3 years so it's a non-factor really) Fine by me, but it won't go over very well with the players. Then again with Don Fehr at the helm nothing seems to go over very well with the players these days.

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:22 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flashy View Post
the fact that some games are worth 3 points and others are worth 2 points make the whole system stupid.

Florida took advantage of this last year.
It's only stupid because it's what most people keep saying. Here's the dilemma. Remove OT completely, go back to ties. Or make OTL worth zero points and have no team wanting to win.

My solution to this "stupidity" is to make regulation wins 3 points like soccer, OTW 2 points, OTL 1.

I agree with the Hawks fan that said the sport is most similar to soccer. Implementing a point-system similar to that would be for the best, IMO.

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:23 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Ok then we'll just play all night til there's a winner like they do in the NBA and MLB. (the NFL has a tie every 3 years so it's a non-factor really) Fine by me, but it won't go over very well with the players. Then again with Don Fehr at the helm nothing seems to go over very well with the players these days.
Impossible: games would go too long.

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:24 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
The only reason ANY points system exists is because of ties. If there were no ties in the beginning, there would just be wins and losses. Which goes back to my original issue: why is there a points system if there's no ties?
Not true. A points system can exist without ties. Look at the 3 point system in some leagues or the Olympics.

Re: your original issue. A points system exists because there are different types of wins and different types of losses. Because of this issue, you need a points system to more accurately reflect the standings.

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:25 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
Why the sarcasm...makes sense to me. I'll wait until NBA, MLB, or NFL games are decided by skill contests before I'll concede the shootout is a fitting part of an nhl game.
Even with the "new" rule, NFL OT is still decided by a field goal kicking contest.

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:26 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
Why the sarcasm...makes sense to me. I'll wait until NBA, MLB, or NFL games are decided by skill contests before I'll concede the shootout is a fitting part of an nhl game.
NBA: last second free throws - skills contest by single player

NFL: last second field goal - skills contest by single player (essentially)

at least shootouts are exciting... and you get to see at least 3 shooters per team.

Have you noticed that hockey has a lot less scoring than these other sports? Maybe that has something to do with it.

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:30 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Even with the "new" rule, NFL OT is still decided by a field goal kicking contest.
Not entirely. I'm sure you recognize that NFL OT far more resembles regulation play than the NHL shootout does.

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:32 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
NBA: last second free throws - skills contest by single player

NFL: last second field goal - skills contest by single player (essentially)
The equivalent in the nhl: a last second goal. Not a shootout.

Quote:
at least shootouts are exciting... and you get to see at least 3 shooters per team.
Somewhat exciting...much less exciting than an important goal actually scored in a game.

Quote:
Have you noticed that hockey has a lot less scoring than these other sports? Maybe that has something to do with it.
That's why the shootout is used to decide games. That does not mean it isn't a gimmick.

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:35 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
Not entirely. I'm sure you recognize that NFL OT far more resembles regulation play than the NHL shootout does.
And yet, I'm more excited when I watch Linus Omark win/lose/extend the game against King Henrik than when I see an NFL game go into OT.

The shootout is an exciting event that I don't want to see removed from the game. I'd actually appreciate the NHL making it 5 a side.

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:41 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
Not true. A points system can exist without ties. Look at the 3 point system in some leagues or the Olympics.

Re: your original issue. A points system exists because there are different types of wins and different types of losses. Because of this issue, you need a points system to more accurately reflect the standings.
But the Olympics system was still created in a world that once had ties. What I'm saying is if not for ties the very concept of awarding points for winning or losing would be completely non-existent. Points were essentially invented by ties.

And I don't buy into the idea that there's different types of losses. A loss is a loss. Regulation, overtime, shootout: it's a loss. It's the same loss for all three. But that's just me. The NHL disagrees and they're not gonna listen to me any time soon.

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12-14-2012, 12:42 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
Impossible: games would go too long.
Well then the shootout is the only feasible option. What I'm saying is these sports have other options. Hockey doesn't. Hockey has shootouts and ties. They made their choice.

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Old
12-14-2012, 01:15 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Ok then we'll just play all night til there's a winner like they do in the NBA and MLB. (the NFL has a tie every 3 years so it's a non-factor really) Fine by me, but it won't go over very well with the players. Then again with Don Fehr at the helm nothing seems to go over very well with the players these days.
LOL. Because the NHLPA are the only ones being stubborn morons

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Old
12-14-2012, 01:54 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
But the Olympics system was still created in a world that once had ties. What I'm saying is if not for ties the very concept of awarding points for winning or losing would be completely non-existent. Points were essentially invented by ties.
Why does it matter what happened when the first system existed? It's irrelevant. The current system exists because the game greatly changed. It's entirely plausible that if shootouts existed in 1917, they would have come up with some kind of tiered points system. You don't need ties to have a points system.

Quote:
And I don't buy into the idea that there's different types of losses. A loss is a loss. Regulation, overtime, shootout: it's a loss. It's the same loss for all three. But that's just me. The NHL disagrees and they're not gonna listen to me any time soon.
If you can't agree to this then you'll never come around . The vast majority of the hockey world disagrees with you. The belief that not all wins and losses are created equal is the core reason why the current points system exists.

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